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MH
If we go with Eric (and the one motorcyclist), then the guy that was seen by ONF1 at the car park is the same guy that was seen by ONF2 at the hairpins and the same guy that passed WBM as WBM ascended the route.
And this is the same person which was later identified by the French police as the “motorcyclist from Lyon”.
(P.S. SM didn’t pass WBM on the Combe D’Ire, SM was “ahead of” him prior to either of them entering the climb).
Eric’s theory (as I understand it) is that the MC moved from the car park to the hairpins, where he was stopped and turned back by ONF2. Both parties then passed through (“back through” for the MC) the car park…their order unknown. At this time there was nobody (“no bodies”) in the car park.
MH
…forgot to add.
How did WBM get there ?
Eric’s view is….
SAH has pic taken at 1517.
He then drives away along the lower road….and turns in Chevaline to take the higher road. He’s now heading towards the Combe D’Ire. There he passes LFR (at a time different from that noted by LFR).
SAH could only do this “IF” he was not seen by WBM, who must have been on the lower road…heading towards the Combe D’Ire (with SM ahead of him).
See how weird that is ?
I am not at all sure about any of it what about Janin MC and the MC and Grey Bmw seen by one of the ONF who for some reason unknown placed them together (accomplice)
Perhaps Max will make one of the maps again which shows everyone moving in relation to each other .
I think it is worth considering both SM and BM cycling past the barrier and coming back down because there is not a good reason to stop at the layby if you are going to climb the hill why not go to the top and back down.
What reason would there be for hiding that did BM see and hear more than we have been told did he wade in and help when the coast cleared ,did he make that phone call after all while it was kicking off and that was the reason for his panic when he bumped into PD aka PB ?
On the other hand I wondering what made BM think it was safe enough to cycle down for help too, imagine you are in his position what would you do where would you go ?
I don’t know the answer I am asking ,you go up its lonely but you could do a Melvyn and go that backtrack to Arnand,but killer might be above , if you go down its a long lonely ride to the bottom and he may be below .
He was very brave to do what he did and try and get help when you think of the position he was in .
I would think what is the safest move I can make that will get help I don’t what that is though.
MN
Can you point out please, where exactly in “William Brett Martin’s report” he refers to a “very, very, very, menacing hard staring motorcyclist“.
Parry does actually refer to the eyes of the portrait robot, I shall dig out the exact quote later.
But I can’t think where you get “menacing” from.
Pink
“What reason would there be for hiding that did BM see and hear more than we have been told”
The question I ask is:- What reason would EM have for hiding that PB had made the key phone call? All be it at the request of WBM.
If WBM had not called EM out on that ‘misattribution’, then PB might have appeared to have had a more minor role (or have been depicted as having a more minor role).
Without reporters hustling him, he may have remained anonymous, as indeed his two lady companions remain to this day.
To me, it is the treatment of PB and company that is ‘unusual’, their actions and involvement minimised, not those of WBM.
Going on from what I said above I don’t think I would stay out in the open or flag down a car of strangers that close to the murder I wouldn’t know who was in that car until it was close ,I would want to check it out before approaching anyone .
GIP Could it have happened the other way around PD aka PB found the crime scene and stopped WBM on the way down that would make more sense a fit mountain man stopping a lone older cyclist ?
I don’t see why any of them went back up surely the best thing to do by then would be get the hell out fast in the car.
Pink
The ‘other way around’ would require WBM to actively participate in a ‘disinformation strategy’ by telling a whole bunch of porkys.
As far as I can tell WBM seems immutably honest. I could see him not revealing certain pieces of information if so directed by the investigating officers in order not to compromise the case.
But scripted lying, no.
As to why they went to the scene, one would hope it would be to check on Zainab, cover her with a coat etc. However I would place a small wager that they didn’t really believe the enormity of what WBM was telling them.
The reaction of PB upon reaching the scene supports this (in my mind anyway). He was told what to expect but when he actually sees it he freaks out and attacks WBM.
GIP I don’t disagree with that idea but they did nothing useful not even remove Zainab only put themselves at risk ,BM had stayed calm enough to stop the car move bodies put Z in recovery position we are not talking a motor accident here but a mass murder he leaves finds help and then they go back.
Please don’t think I am being critical of anyone’s actions I am not
I am just thinking about the choices made and how they fit .
I was wondering if anything influenced those choices and was exploring that idea .
On BM we know he was in the clear as far as Em was concerned that in itself makes me think there is a reason they know he was not the guilty party .
No more time today to think about it its way past my bedtime in fact its morning already oh dear .
http://www.france24.com/en/20150730-france-edf-areva-agree-nuclear-reactor-deal
FRENCH state-controlled utility EDF is buying a majority stake in the reactor business of
FRENCH state-controlled nuclear group Areva and will look for partners
to take a minority stake.
The deal is crucial for FRANCE,
which generates three quarters of its electricity from nuclear plants and needs to keep
Areva alive
in order to service its existing reactor fleet, as well as supporting its large nuclear industry with export contracts.
Or to put it another way
THEY ARE IN VERY DEEP
MERDE
Pink
What should have influenced their behaviour were the instructions they were given by the emergency line operator, if any were actually given.
Without channeling french bashing, how did the convo go?
“Oui, oui un massacre terrible just now happened in the mountain forest, everybody’s dead, shot apparently!
.. … ..?
No, we are further down the combe, the signal is good here but no signal further up where the victims are parked.
. …. ..
So, our plan is to go to le parking place, mope about and gawk at the bodies.
.. … ….?
No we are not hunters. We are not armed at all. . .
… ….. …. …!”
This is your standard morons-in-the-woods movie script. The theater-goers do the facepalm…
If you came across the scene what would you assume
a . A shootout between the car and SM
b . A murder-suicide (family drama)
c . A murder by someone else
d . Something else
If for instance BM thought a or b he might behave differently to thinking c as in the first 2 everyone is dead and no threat.
It could be that he was motivated by getting help for z as fast as possible and not his own survival even in that situation you need to take the best course of action to get the desired result.
It was said he thought it was an accident until he saw the people in the car fair enough he then has to decide what to do .
We know what he is supposed to have done ridden down and encountered PD if he hadn’t bumped into PD he would have had to ride all the way down or keep stopping to try phone, if he believed the MC was responsible he would know it’s below he doesn’t seem to have worried about MC .
My logic I think would be I need a signal go higher, it will be less easy to get to help if no signal, it is possible escape via the track to arnand or even the hill cycle tracks.
Downhill fast is best if I know the coast is clear or I know the problem is higher or I don’t think there is a threat.
I would probably have fainted and been totally useless to anyone he has some training in critical thinking and assessing a situation.
I will repeat I am in no way critical of what was done just figuring out how it was decided and what might have influenced him to see if it throws up any ideas.
I wonder, if in those first few minutes, William thought, I bet the FRENCH are behind this slaughter.
Interesting point (about the return visit of WBM with PB).
Initially WBM thought the killer/shooter may have been a “sniper” and may be still present in the woodland. It seems (at this point) the consideration that the killer/shooter may possibly be/have been the earlier motorcyclist, was not made.
(However, in panic and with no mobile signal…it would have been logical to descend the Combe D’Ire to reach Chevaline and assistance, regardless if the motorcyclist that was descending, was the killer. He had already passed WBM afterall)
Later, WBM returned to the car park with (the unarmed ?) PB.
Here PB initially placed his vehicle in such a way as to make a rapid escape if required. On witnessing the scene, he later “attacked” WBM.
Did PB arrive with WBM following on his bike ? Or was PB in a vehicle that was able to take onboard WBM and his bike ?
Did WBM/PB ignore the advice given by the emergency services (I presume the advice would be to “remain where they were” IF the translation of what had happened was given clearly by WBM to PB and then to the emergency services operator…that being “the victims appear to have been shot dead”) ?
There appears to have been no attempt to “remove” ZAH from the scene when WBM/PB arrived. Even if she was in an unconscious state at this time, she had previously been alive. Loading her into/onto PB’s vehicle would seem to be the logical thing to do. To “grab and run” with anyone showing any form of life, then or previously…would have seemed the “thing to do”.
Lathuile
It seems that the “Lyon” man “might”
have been tracked down because he used his mobile phone in Lathuile.
It is said that the previous “suspect Eric Devouassoux in-laws live in Chevaline and that Eric lives/d in Lathuile.
The mate of Eric ( who may also have been charged with gun crimes)
also lives in Lathuile.
It has also been said that William Brett martin sometimes lives in his house in Lathuile.
W.B.M. house is a stones-throw from the home of the family Communal-Tournier,
where poor Nicole was shot dead six days after the E-FIT-SKETCH was released.
Can all this be co-incidence?
I do not know how close to the scene of the slaughter,
the motorcyclist rode slowly down combe, passing William Brett Martin.
If the motorcycle travel time from the slaughter scene to passing William Brett Martin
was less than say ten minutes, it would be inconceivable that he was not aware of the slaughter?
Apparently the “Lyon” man has told on his first hearing with the authorities that he did not take part, did not witness and did not pass dead people.
So how many minutes passed from him being at the slaughter scene to passing W.B.M.?
The tighter the time frame between the “Lyon” man being at Le Martinet, then riding down combe and passing William Brett Martin, the more unbelievable it is,
that he was not involved.
Perhaps Eric Maillaud has been instructed from on high to not press the man from “Lyon”?
Intriguing, I’d not heard of H1, H2, H3, H4, H5, H6, H7 before.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/the-alhilli-massacre-a-murder-mystery-unsolved-9142315.html
If so, the al-Hilli massacre will become once again a mystery wrapped in an enigma. Investigators say that all seven official lines of inquiry, numbered from H1 to H7, remain under active investigation.
Mr Devouassoux was arrested on Tuesday after 12 weeks of surveillance, under official hypothesis four (H4) – that the murders were the work of a lone, random and local killer. As the Annecy prosecutor, Eric Maillaud, was at pains to point out on Wednesday, the former policeman had an “interesting” H4 profile.
He collects – and maybe deals in – old weapons. The al-Hilli murders were carried out with a P06 Luger, which was made for the Swiss army in the 1920s and 1930s.
His mobile phone records suggest that he could have been “within a few hundred metres or several kilometres” of the massacre on 5 September 2012, Mr Maillaud said. The murders happened at the top of a winding road, which is 16 kilometres (10 miles) from Menthon Saint-Bernard where Mr Devouassoux worked. His in-laws live nearby.
As village policeman, Mr Devouassoux had been accused on several occasion of making racist remarks, said Mr Maillaud. He had also been accused of behaving violently – usually verbally but on one occasion physically – towards foreign tourists. The al-Hilli family, who were caravanning beside Lake Annecy, were British of Iraqi origin.
All this circumstantial evidence justified the former policeman’s arrest and the search of three houses, including the home of his wife’s family near Chevaline, Mr Maillaud said.
Circumstantial evidence is one thing. Real evidence is another.
What is happening with Eric Devouassoux?
“He bears an uncanny resemblance to a motorcyclist seen close to the murder scene,
who has never come forward.”
“
So it could be rather important to know the time that the “Lyon” motorcyclist was stopped and spoken with above Le Martinet by the forest guards,
did they log in with that critical time?
How many minutes passed from the “Lyon” motorcyclist, departing from his meeting,
above Le Martinet and him passing William Brett Martin,
who was then cycling up the combe to discover the scene of the slaughter?
It has been said the speaking with the Forest guards happened about 15.00 hours and that W.B.M. discovered the murder scene about 15.48 hours,
is that correct.
if so, what was “Lyon” man doing for three quarters of an hour?
MN
Re my comment upthread about your “very, very, very, menacing hard staring motorcyclist“, I have dug out the reference to the portrait robot.
On page 65 of his book, Parry describes the police artist’s depiction of a man in a motorcycle helmet as follows:-
“The figure in the black and white sketch had a goatee beard, dark eyebrows and an intense gaze”
The ‘intense gaze’ meme seems to originate from the Mirror reporter! Can you find a prior reference?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3185736/Police-admit-e-fits-helped-catch-just-ONE-criminal-three-years-look-like-wonder.html
Speaking to MailOnline, he said: ‘The whole purpose is to give police a line of inquiry. It’s quite rare for it (the e-fit) to look like an actual dead ringer and people’s memory can be sketchy but it can still be effective.
……
He added: ‘A very large number are not shown to the public, but shown to a specialist officer who would then look into that person. If they are able to identify them internally, they will not be shown to the public.’
On that subject, of all the calls received after the publication of the Portrait-Robot, Mr Lyon could not have had his name mentioned, he was traced due to his mobile phone, where on earth Michael gets the phone use in Lathuile is as baffling as the very, very slow and staring at Martin. The reconstruction in Panorama shows the Motorcyclist turning his head to look at Martin, cannot find any reference to this in print.
And for you GIP, someone saw MM, he gave the impression he slipped away when he heard the sirens, would be interesting to know who saw him ?
http://www.leparisien.fr/faits-divers/tuerie-de-chevaline-la-mysterieuse-moto-aux-grandes-sacoches-18-10-2012-2243921.php
“Un autre jeune pilote de moto trial aperçu le jour du drame dans les environs de Chevaline a, lui, été retrouvé depuis. Il s’agit d’un adolescent qui pilotait son engin dans la zone de réserve de chasse du massif des Bauges et qui a été mis hors de cause.”
Offical appeal for the Motorcycle was 15:15/15:40, Liberation wrote 15:15, TP and Lyon man say on the Combe around 15:00, Non-Elucide 15:25/15:30 (http://telescoop.tv/browse/392431/14/non-elucide.html) page 14
I wonder what time the photo of the entire family was taken in Chevaline, this could be the information that knocks Fillion-Robin’s 14:40 into touch ?
Laters, mucho laters !
The relevant point is:
Eric Maillaud wishes us to believe that there was only one motorcyclist
and that is the unnamed person from “Lyon”
Unless William Brett Martin is telling porkies,
then the motorcyclist W.B.M. saw must be the same motorcyclist
that E.M. wants us to believe in.
Therefore it is hugely important to fully understand the purpose and movements of E.M. motorcyclist.
Just because, on his first judicial hearing, the honourable person says, he did not murder/was not involved/did not see any bodies
DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE.
I think there is a good chance SAH was geocaching with the kids how does this direction to the geocache fit with the route SAH took ?
Perhaps the idea was for him and Z to go and look for the cache and for the others stay to in the car with the little one perhaps she was asleep .
We have looked at this before I can’t quite understand the difference in parking places .
http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC2X39T_la-cascade-du-creux-de-lenfer
Can someone also explain where is au parking de Tarfet.
“Vous pouvez atteindre la cache, et donc la cascade, en moins d’une demi-heure, par un sentier forestier démarrant au parking de Tarfet.”
…………….
http://www.annecy-bredannaz.com/page17.html
using google translate
Cascade du Creux de l’Enfer
rental.
site tree.
Aqua-rando.
Annecy.
Skiing near Annecy.
walks around Bredannaz.
walks around BredannazAnnecyAqua-rando
Annecy-Bredannaz.com
site treerenting
Access: Chevaline (Doussard) –
Start: car park at the end of the forest road.
Elevation: 100 m (to the waterfall).
Torrent: Nant Borien.
Itinerary:
Chevaline Doussard then 3 km. In the small village of Chevaline, take the road on the right, before the church (direction Marceau). After 200m turn left and take the road that goes towards the mountain Coal and which passes above the Ire torrent. The forest road ends in a stalemate Km away. The trail starts here ( sign Waterfall ). It rises to a cross in a few bends to the left and the waterfall. If we continue on the right after crossing the road to the waterfall, the trail heads to the river (the Nant Borien ), crossed the continues to source “Good Water “- marked 930 m on the IGN map Top 25 Lake Annecy-230 vertical meters from the car park, half an hour. This path climbs up Mont Coal going around the mountain before joining the path coming from Montgellaz and the valley of the torrent Bornette (see IGN), for seasoned walkers.
This small village of Chevaline is picturesque and reserves, especially since the church, a magnificent panorama of the lake and the plain of Doussard.
Accès: Chevaline (Doussard)-
Départ: parking au bout de la route forestière.
Dénivelé: 100 m.(jusqu’à la cascade)
Torrent: Nant Borien.
Itinéraire:
Doussard puis Chevaline à 3 km. Dans le petit village de Chevaline, prendre la route à droite, avant l’église (direction Marceau). 200 m après tourner à gauche et prendre la route qui part en direction de la montagne du Charbon et qui passe au dessus du torrent d’Ire. La route forestière finit en impasse un Km plus loin. Le sentier démarre là (panneau cascade). Il monte jusqu’à un croisement en quelques lacets vers la gauche et la cascade. Si l’on poursuit sur la droite après le croisement avec le chemin qui mène à la cascade, ce sentier se dirige vers le torrent (le Nant Borien), le franchit, continue jusqu’à une source «Bonne Eau»- marquée 930 m sur la carte IGN Top 25 du lac d’Annecy-230 m de dénivelé depuis le parking, une demi-heure. Ce chemin monte jusqu’au Mont Charbon en faisant le tour de la montagne avant de rejoindre le sentier qui vient de Montgellaz et de la combe du torrent de Bornette (voir carte IGN), pour les marcheurs aguerris.
Ce petit village de Chevaline est pittoresque et il réserve, surtout depuis l’église, un magnifique panorama sur le lac et la plaine de Doussard.
Pink
The cascade is at the start of the combe, on the right hand side if you were driving up. It seems to be accessible from a side track off the main drag up the combe.
You presumably dump your car where the forest side track becomes impassable then walk the rest of the way. I have not seen a map that gives a specific name for this parking place – sorry.
So it is on the west side of the combe approx 1 km to the north of le martinet parking.
MN
“the motorcyclist W.B.M. saw must be the same motorcyclist
that E.M. wants us to believe in.”
I respect your opinion and your fervour.
You are likely to be correct, (more likely than me anyway) however I still think it is possible that WBM saw a different MC. After all, his description of the MC was vague and not really consistent with that given by the ONF.
My preferred candidate MC rider is le GG, if only for the fact that WMC apparently followed the instructions given by ONF2.
Le GG is the only other MC known to be near the scene. In fact he seems to me to be the closest witness to the scene at the time of the murders.
My view is that le GG was riding slowly when seen by WBM because he had just exited a side track from Mont Benoit onto the main track down the combe.
Le GG may also have been trying to keep the revs down in order to sound less conspicuous. I thought he was riding a trail bike but Peter and Pink seem to favour an enduro bike. If it was actually an out-and-out enduro or crosser then at full throttle they are loud.
WBM crossing le GG would also explain the apparent sighting of GG mentioned by M. in his post above.
@ GIP Thanks for that info so its unlikely he would be geocaching with parking right up at the top layby ,I really liked that idea because there is a cache in chevaline as well, the idea was explored before it got overtaken with other things so many ideas ,so little time .
Geocaching makes a lot of sense to me if he was trying to do something to amuse the kids and James Matthews said that they did do geocaching, my ability to work out the french pages is limited to google translate and my geography is not much better .
If I remember correctly wasn’t it said that SM should have taken the waterfall turn but made a mistake (wrong route )so is this track passable by bike ?
Geocaching is often used by drug runners