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FIB is interesting because it does not seem a natural place to stop these are some thoughts I had .
I wondered if SAH was thinking of renting it as a garage or did he know someone in that little area.
The parking opposite could have just been convenient ,I noticed there was barrels and some scrap on the ground by the house with the parking on streetview was he looking for useful bits of metal he liked to recycle so a possible.
The photo showing the mountain could have been taken because they were there I don’t think it would be a natural photo to stop and specifically take.
If SAH was going to rent or buy FIB he could have driven the ladies past to show them maybe tweeting a pic to someone.
I don’t suppose the ladies would be that interested in a workshop that might explain his trips out and possibly his visitor I would imagine if it was that simple he would have come forward .
I suppose it is possible he wanted to rent out the FIB
but would it be much use if he was to continue living in a £1.2 million pound house in Claygate, Surrey, ENGLAND?
It would make more sense if SYLVAIN MOLLIER, a loclal metalurgist/welder/common law husband of a pharmasist wanted to rent it out.
Property is high stakes in that area SAH stopped at a building for sale and also passed possibly stopped at a building undergoing renovation the Bewick place where the builders were working ,SM has a relative who is an estate agent,TS is in property ,SAH had a property for sale ,SAH’s neighbour at the St Macaire property wanted to buy it to extend his garden and couldn’t get SAH down in price ,I have always thought that property dealings might be the connection between SM and SAH in some form .
What I cannot fathom is how it would end up in what happened .
Maybe SYLVAIN MOLLIER and SAAD AL_HILLI were going to be going into business together
running a mountain bike rental from the FIB?
The so-called flat-iron building actually is a substantial former factory building, now privately owned. Take a look (it usually helps):
http://patrimoine.rhonealpes.fr/dossier/martinet/cfc9f166-1751-417d-8100-0b587d4a34c6
Intriguingly, that building was also the site of the region’s “new” martinet (mechanical hammer), the Martinet parking lot being the site of the original one. As the building is privately owned and not open to the public, it is conceivable that SAH drove to the Martinet parking lot in the hope of finding a historic martinet there.
Reads like they also used the water power to make cider.
Anyone noticed, that opposite the FIB the hill side shows prehistoric /peasant person-wide contour strips ( for subsistence crop growing)
#notforgettingmichaelnorton
They made apple graters out of metal, FFS.
Anyway, given that SAH drove from one martinet to the other on that day, it doesn’t seem too far-fetched to assume that this is what he was after. A working mechanical hammer would be a fun thing to see even for the children, and perhaps, after finding admission barred to the one in Doussard, SAH spotted another martinet on the map and spontaneously decided to drive there.
While I am ready to believe that Saad al-Hilli and engineer was intrigued by water power,
I can not see that two middle class women and a couple of very young girls would be happy to be deposited in that godforsaken back water while Saad alone ascended the combe.
Peter, finally some sense !
Pink, TS is in ‘property’, the company was set up when he purchased the land on which he had the new Pharmacy built. His daughter rents the pharmacy, somewhere in the old photos or maybe streetview the sign required to be displayed for the building works is visible.
MN, go have a look at the area again, Mollier could easily have passed from the cycle track into Doussard and then taken the bridge before the FIB arriving in Chevaline, according to the Panorama footage Mollier was seen by Martin, as the latter approached from the Marceaus. Why would he do this, possibly because it is a faster run from Chevaline up the Combe d’Ire, getting up a bit of speed, remember Martin said Mollier distanced himself from him ? The odd obit quoted in The Parry Bible says this, Doussard then Chevaline.
Locals say many people stop and take photos at the FIB/Martinet, it overhangs the Ire. You’d need to read the FRENCH Press to pick up that snippet !
There are some funny ideas going on here, including Max and the lawyer and the MC.
GIP, apologies for the 300 yards, it should have read 300 metres (Non-Elucide).
As for the car passing Martin, there is mention of this in the statement read at the British Coroners Inquest.
Fillion-Robin has his timing wrong, although it has moved so often in Press Reports I doubt he even remembers the reality.
As for ‘adulterers’ well, Ikbal was a full blown one wasn’t she, Melrose ? Mollier wasn’t married to Claire, therefore in religious eyes, he was already ‘living in sin’.
Anyways, off to my backwater again.
PS: that house in Claygate, even for its redecoration and a bit of new flooring/carpets, is grim, they were hardly living in oppulence. Why Fadwa and Zaid have decided to leave the odd bits of furniture and old TV’s is a strange choice, better to empty it completely. Zoopla will eventually say how much it actually realises, someone will knock the price down or have many more thousands in the bank to spend on its upgrading.
Should say, Ikbals adultery lasted until her marriage to JT was disolved, some two months or so after her void marriage to Saad, after that they were just ‘living in sin’.
Oooh I bet there are many ‘elders’ who wouldn’t view that too kindly
MN, there are obvious reasons to assume Mollier might be the target, we’ve read plenty, same for the Al-Hillis/Al-Saffars, more so I would guess.
The two together for who they are, not a chance, mistaken identity is far higher up the list.
@Peter That’s very interesting and may well have been what he was doing what about deviating to Chevaline though sightseeing do you think ?
While you here I wanted to ask you do you still think one of the shots came from higher up, I think back in the day you said it must have been a 10ft man or something along those lines it doesn’t matter as such I am just curious to know if you still think that a shot was out of place ?
@M I am still keeping property on the table as a possible because it is a theme that runs through all this from SAH visiting his old house on the way that could have sparked a reopening of negotiation and thoughts of getting something else etc,I just go with the gut on all the various options I do not pretend to have the faintest clue what really happened it’s a forlorn hope that if we keep talking something may come along that will add a piece.
I do not see SAH’s house the same way you do it’s a family home that probably has a bit left over from mum and dads day and SAH and IBH doing odds and ends as time and money allowed it must be hard for Zaid too a lot of his past tied up there none of it can be very easy even in a normal circumstance let alone under this one .
Pink, he didn’t go to St Macaire.
I do like your comment regarding the MC being infront of SAH if Max’s idea of the double visit were to be true, that means all the ONF have the time wrong, doesn’t it ?
By about 20/25 minutes, first sighted at Le Martinet around 14:50, hmm.
Then it follows the MC and 4×4 seen by Martin, are less likely to be Lyon man or ONF.
Taking advantage of a bit of Free WiFi !
@Max I have just noticed the picture you posted can you please check it for the gouges the reporter mentioned that got filled in by the police .
It will not be the ones in the bank made by the car.
Anyone on here heard before of the 2001 Toulouse eXplosions,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AZF_%28factory%29
amazing that the China eXplosions were also near A320 plant,
as pointed out by Phillip Hammond our foreign secretary, he was ther hours befoe the strt of the blasts.
@ M How do you know he didn’t go to St.Macaire and do you know where he did go ?
Pink and Peter
“The parking opposite could have just been convenient ,I noticed there was barrels and some scrap on the ground by the house with the parking on streetview</em"
As I remember it, the property opposite was also for sale, and appeared unoccupied. I think it may have originally been a forge.
My view is that if SAH was looking at properties for sale with a view to restoration/conversion, then it is more likely that this was the one he was primarily interested in rather than the FIB.
As an aside I think the 'Flower House' was also for sale.
I dont think that the Martinet parking lot was actually the site of the original mechanical hammer. From memory the site (now ruined) is a little bit further up the combe past the foot crossing. I guess a few hundred meters further than the parking place.
I am not being a pedantic gip, its just that I liked the idea that the RHD BMW 4×4 may have overshot the Martinet parking place because it was navigating, using GPS, to a waypoint picked off a map that was actually the ruin, not the parking place named for it.
This could potentially explain how a killer lying in wait above le Martinet parking for the BMW 4×4 could miss his intended target (who drove straight by) and instead mistake SAH's BMW for his real target.
@GIP I probably meant the forge then it had a sale sign on and a garage type door that’s why I thought of workshop.
About the martinet being a bit further up it might also mean SAH and Z were going to look and the ladies staying put as not that interested I wonder if there is geocache there.
I am going over old Icke ATM trying to get some sense of these vehicles have you all decided this didn’t happen ?
Its reported that BM saw these vehicles towards the scene the builders said the same thing they had seen a green vehicle and MC heading that way before SAH but nothing following him ,I have to find that link again I have posted it before.
Knowing what we know now about timings can these two sightings be used to help refine in anyway ?
Is it not likely that they both saw the same car and MC if that was the case they were ahead of SAH and BM and SM and then it is said that BM saw them coming down as well it’s doing my head in trying to figure it out .
The express on the 8/9/2012
“As detectives stepped up their hunt for the professional hitmen who they believe executed wealthy Saad Al-Halli, his dentist wife Iqbal and her mother, police sources said the unnamed Briton has given them detailed descriptions of the possible getaway car and of a lone motorcyclist.
He can consider himself lucky to be alive as he was overtaken by a French cyclist who was shot dead after witnessing the cold-blooded assassination. He has told police he thinks he saw the killers speed past him on the way to the scene.
Last night the man was being kept in a police safe house but has provided police with a full account of the carnage he came across on Wednesday afternoon.
He clearly remembers seeing a green 4×4 vehicle and a motorcyclist speeding past him towards the scene which he arrived at minutes later, giving weight to the theory the shocking murders were carried out by more than one individual.
His evidence is key to trying to solve the mystery of a horrific killing that has shocked France and baffled seasoned detectives.
It emerged last night that the RAF veteran with “nerves of steel” is terrified of being identified.”
I used this link because video doesn’t seem to work at the express copy.
Read more at http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7a7_1347101147#1pe9pygFsHE0qv5x.99
Oui at Booman tribune said on the 9/9/2012
“His witness account indicates just two possibilities. From the village of Chevaline the Brit was overtaken by the French cyclist, the Peugeot 4×4 and the motorcycle, no mention of the BMW Estate. The small path called Route de la Combe d’Ire is approx. 3 miles long and ends in a barricade for cars where the ambush took place. The assassins were aware another cyclist was nearby so they hurried the killings and doubled back a few hundred meters to a fork in the road so they avoided the Brit in the quick escape to Albertville and the Italian border? What was the reason for the Iraqi family to travel this path to nowhere except for its seclusion and beautiful forest. The presumed assassins in the 4×4 and motorcycle overtook the Brit and the French cyclist Sylvain Mollier. So they were aware of their presence. How could they have known the al-Hilli family was in the parking space? Only possibility if they had made an appointment to meet, which in my view is not at all likely. The timing and location points to a targeted killing of the French cyclist and they were surprised by the presence of the BMW of the Iraqi family. Saad al-Hilli tried to run down the assassins and failed, the eldest daughter tried to escape and the assassins never knew there was a 4 year old in the car.”
Thank you Pink
“Briton has given them detailed descriptions of the possible getaway car and of a lone motorcyclist.”
so perhaps the E-FIT-SKETCH was after all provided by William Brett Martin?
It would be very interesting to see a real picture of the “LYON” motorcylist
who has not yet been outed,
to see if his face is like the E-FIT-SKETCH?
Its interesting what Empee said on icke on the 12/9/2012 at that time they still thought it had happened higher up .
I won’t link as the language gets a bit offensive I wouldn’t want to offend anyone.
Empee 12-09-2012, 11:56 PM
“Mollier gets there and initial greetings occur, then all of a sudden a motorbike bursts onto the scene shooting Mollier in the back. SAH then has to act on his initiative amidst all sorts of panic. He reverses into the position we see in the distributed photos of the BMW, but by this time the 4×4 has arrived and blocked him in and possibly joined in the shooting.
I’m leaving out the girl and where Mollier was and ended up, but the French cyclist could have been dragged back by the open door in the reverse move?
A lot of opinion, but ive been all over these maps, witness statements, times etc and its the best I can come up with. Could really do with just a little bit more information.”
Pink, both TP and Maillaud have said where the family travelled, Calais, Rouen and another stop, South East of Paris, don’t recall the name, maybe someone with the book to hand can help.
The problem with the very early reports and the guestimates are there was not enough facts, just speculation.
Peter Allen in The Standard wrote about a green 4×4 and a MC passing LFR BEFORE SAH, in the same article he also had the glass at the top end of the Parking as being from a car tail light…..
MN, the man from Lyon is innocent, why should he have his name plastered all over the media, what purpose will it serve ? The forestry workers in the 4×4 gave the description for the sketch, the forestry workrs in the 4×4 gave the sketch, the forestry workers etc.etc. Does he look like the man, well he couldn’t have thought it was him, so maybe not too much and nobody called in with his name. But he is the guy in the P-R, whether he is Martins MC, not so sure, if he isn’t then it could offer an explanation of the bizarre timings.
Peter, Iqbal qualified at the same time as Alabdi in 1987, she was registered with the name you have posted before relating to Fadwa, Dahir/Dhahir, she did well. Did she work elsewhere using this name ?
On the point of speculation and early reports, I see Cilla Black died, reports said it was due to a knock on the head and a stroke, her son found her on the terrace sunbed.
Todays Coroners Inquest report, she died from a knock to the head and was found on the bedroom floor by her son. Gossip and speculation, I’m surprised someone hasn’t come up with the idea her son did it, afterall he was on the premises !!
Just remember the ‘temoins’ weren’t to know they were ‘temoins’ to anything, witnesses are notoriously unreliable.
GIP, I like your logic, what was another RHD BMW doing up there THAT afternoon ?
End of my little sojourn here, what if none of the victims had been the target, they were all just mooching about, no logic to their ‘route’ would be required, would it ?
MN you can look for yourself if you go back the clues were given as to who it was.
EM puts him in the clear I cannot see him coming out so plainly if he had any doubts after all the effort put into finding him.
As I seem to have verbal diarrhea today I will add that I would expect an assassin to arrive and leave unseen the fact that these people were seen goes in their favour for me whats the point of a sophisticated plot if everyone knows you were there.
I am still baffled by the vehicles though its bugging me now .
Pink, forgot to say BBC had the murders placed at the second hairpin. Photos still available.
Yes I know M thats how Icke came to be thinking it was higher up, it was considered at one point whether the crime scene had been relocated to the layby because of the proximity of the border and who got jurisdiction not as daft as it sounds if there was a cover up .
I think the witnesses would know the direction of travel especially
BM and builder its not that complicated I could accept the journalist made an error.
There was a video showing something different to what we now know as the direction of the bikes it has disappeared probably because they got it wrong as well,as I am not 100% sure I haven’t discarded it .
@ Good In Parts, 14 Aug, 2015 – 5:09 pm
I dont think that the Martinet parking lot was actually the site of the original mechanical hammer. From memory the site (now ruined) is a little bit further up the combe past the foot crossing. I guess a few hundred meters further than the parking place.
Thanks for that clarification. SAH making the same mistake as I did, assuming that the Martinet parking was the site of the original mechanical hammer, could explain what he was doing mooching around at the parking lot for some considerable time – looking for that mechanical hammer. It could even explain Max’ double-visit scenario far more plausibly than any lost cuddly toy: SAH drives up to the Martinet parking lot, fails to discover any mechanical hammers there, turns around and drives back, then decides to ask some local and is directed back uphill to the Martinet parking lot. The moment that the killer struck could have been the moment in which SAH tried to make up his mind whether best to drive or walk the remainder of the way from the Martinet parking lot up to the site of the original mechanical hammer.
M.
You wrote “GIP, apologies for the 300 yards, it should have read 300 metres (Non-Elucide).”
Thanks – I shall check it out – It seems significantly different from the 3-5 minutes before arriving at le martinet parking as per Parry. Unless he was riding a snail.
My general view is that a very large proportion of the key statements in Parry’s book are quotes or paraphrasing of Eric Maillaud’s own words, primarily as ‘defensive writing’ to keep lawyers at bay. I had hoped that this extended to key times and places as well.
What was another RHD BMW doing up there, and why has its driver not come forward?
You rightly ask what if none of the victims were the target? As time goes on and lines of enquiry such as LMC are closed down or downgraded in probability, then what were at the outset low probability scenarios, become more interesting.
Peter
By the way, you are quite correct about the lack of information concerning the reason for the release from custody of the ‘Swiss Guy’. I have not been able to find anything to support a connection with the broken grip fragments. As I caveated my original post, maybe I have ‘misremembered’.