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M has pointed us to the idea that Sric Maillaud would like us to believe that the unnamed, honourable man from “Lyon” is innocent of murder.
Quite possibly, he is innocent of murder but only 95% innocent of any involvement, therefore
he remains a suspect.
Hence, it would be helpful for his image and name to be known.
I have a theory that this “Lyon” man is indeed innocent of murder.
He was not there at all.
That’s why he did not come forward.
However it does not mean a motorcyclist was not the murderer.
@All (Peter, GIP and others)
Well, I skimmed through the last posts. Good!!
Let me say first that I :
– Do think SAH went to Martinet twice
– Do *NOT* think it must have been about a ‘cuddly toy’
No, I think SAH went to Martinet twice and *therefor* I had to find some reason, and only because of this I came up with the ‘cuddly toy’. But it could also be a ‘secret meeting’. Rescheduled meeting or whatever.
In short … I need to know WHAT was the reason SAH did go to Martinet twice
And I’ll be damned if that Martinet/Hammer thingy is indeed even better than any cuddly toy!!
– – –
The only thing now needed it to know if/how SAH did pick up the idea that there was something mechanical/engineering interesting thing to see up there.
Suppose SAH did pick up about the ‘Martinet’ (hammer) somewhere around Chevaline/Combe d’Ire
…
– He goes there straight away with his family
– He passes LFR at 14h40
– He arrives at Martinet
– He somehow decides this is NOT the correct place to find this ‘hammer’ thingy
– He drives down, now over route du Moulin
– And … he finds the FIB building at 15h15
– Somehow he then learn that there *IS* another ‘Martinet/Hammer’ ruin/site, up the COmbe d’Ire
– So he goes back again
– And at Martinet get out (again) to check if he missed info about this ‘Martinet/Hammer’ ruin/site further up
…
You see, you see!! It can make sense:)
Bloody well done everybody!!!
@M
Having watched Panorama again bearing in mind I never focused on the timings as such because plenty of people better than me were doing so I am still not clear whether there is an unaccounted for MC .
How many places can we reliably put Lyon man without him being involved ,parked up because there was no bodies, at the top when he was spoken too,can he get down and off before BM and BM’s MC ?
Did LFR or Peter Allen specify which order they went up in front of SAH ?
Was Lyon man breaking any rules doing his flying from wherever it was, how did he get the stuff up there ,would he have needed a friend to help ?
I am hoping someone has worked all that out already and I am just slow .
Interestingly, some on the web are comparing the Tianjin explosions to what happens when using an acetylene welder. All the chemicals in storage in Tianjin made this a much, much larger acetylene torch.
If someone wanted a “welding torch”, would they have sought out Sylvain Mollier for this purpose?
@ GIP
« From memory the site (now ruined) is a little bit further up the combe past the foot crossing. I guess a few hundred meters further than the parking place. »
Where did you get this info?
@ Peter
SAH used some map or had info about this mechanical hammer (martinet). Which map would that be?
The ‘local’ redirecting SAH back to Martinet for the second time … wouldn’t he come forward??
– – –
GIP says the old Martinet (being beyond the parking Martinet) is now a ruin. But perhaps SAH didn’t know that. He might have expected a nice building of some sorts.
– – –
Anyway, this scenario begins with SAH having some idea of nice buildings (martinets) to see up there. Where did he pick up this idea? Maybe it was on a map. I must have been a fairly detailed map.
To add … if SAH was interested in property. What on earth was he doing up there at Martinet??? Surely not trying to find some property for sale 🙂
Max I believe there was a house for sale I only know it as The coal house it belongs to the forestry peeps it was a long time ago when it was mentioned I think they were also talking about some redevelopment of that area as well but don’t quote me on that I don’t mean houses just improvments.
There was a P Bossy in property not sure if he’s the right one though .
http://immopartner-annecy.com/contact.php
http://tousaucharbon.over-blog.com/
This could be it I am having to guess a bit.
Access to Coal
Following a collapse of the floor of the forest road of Combe d’Ire, access to parking Martinet is prohibited at the entrance to the forest road to Chevaline. You have to park before the panel and walk about 4km on the road or ride by Saury, parking Montgellaz or Bellecombe en Bauges, parking Reposoir.
I’m searching/googling around about Martinets
On this (web) map you can find the name ‘Le Martinet’
https://deadzone61.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/www-geoportail-gouv-fr_le_martinet.png
Googling further I get pages where the words Martinet and Métallurgie both come up
http://www.paperblog.fr/7463152/moulins-a-eau/
http://moulinafer.free.fr/Forges_moulins-a-fer.htm
« que le moulin bladier l’hydraulique étendant son domaine d’application à toutes les activités mécaniques (scie ou martinet hydraulique, métallurgie, foulon). »
« A l’usage, les synonymes “martinet, forge, fusine, fourneau” sont devenus des toponymes pour désigner des lieux liés à une activité métallurgique. Près d’Orelle on trouve un lieu-dit Fusine, toponyme d’origine italienne indiquant qu’il y avait là une fonderie. »
– – –
Weird … Martinet and Métallurgie … sound to eerily close to what SM was doing (job)
I get some strange flash that SAH was up there at Martinet, then going down to FIB, and then SM passes by and stops and tells SAH that there is a ‘Martinet’ (ruin) up there. So SAH goes back up
Peter’s local then would be SM
… the only trouble is that this would have happened at FIB, and WBM seemed to have indicated SM overtook him in Chevaline (not route du Moulin)
Otoh, if SM was coming from Ugine and went directly to Martinet (Col de Cherel), he would have taken route du Moulin … at least that is what I would expect SM to do (shortest route)
Otoh, if WBM is X, adn he was already up there, he would have to guess which route SM (and SAH) would have taken.
Later, by the 15h15 pictures it became clear (to WBM) that at least SAH’s route was known. SAH drove over route du Moulin (second visit … sure I now do not the official version anymore)
I always was a little troubled by WBM saying/stating he’d saw SM in Chevaline, because that is not the shortest route for SM.
Funny thing I was pondering whether spotters could have relayed wrong information (cock up theory) if SAH and BM had a meeting .
If SAH was seen talking to SM they might have thought he was the target the motorbike gave BM a hard look maybe he was thinking oh f… wrong man now I have no bullets .
Another long shot
The mystery photographer … now if that was SM, it explains why that photographer hasn’t come forward (dead)
I guess Zainab sooner or later would remember her father Saad talking to a biker (at FIB)
– – –
If SAh and SM did meet (at FIB) then WBM is lying, and thus WBM is exposed as probably being X. Thus WBM was already there at Martinet, waiting for his target. His target was SM, the man he is lying about from day 1
It explains all inconsistencies in WBM’s account, amongst which are the inverse sequence of ONF2 and LMC
– – –
In one of my scenario’s there is a connection between CS and WBM. Maybe they decided SM had to go. CS was instrumental in SM going biking. She knew the destination (climb of Combe d’Ire). WBM simply was waiting at Martinet.
Remember … nobody saw/remembers WBM. Nobody can account/vouch for any of his claims!
– – –
WBM, being up there at Martinet, waiting for SM had to guesstimate 4 things he didn’t see
1. SM’s route/timeline
2. SAH’s route/timeline
3. ONF2’s route/timeline (he saw them pass Martinet)
4. LMC’s route/timeline (he saw him pass Martinet)
– – –
If SAH and SM did meet (at FIB), WBM is exposed as liar!
I still cling to the idea that there were at least two parties meeting maybe three parties, push bike man turns left off the Ugine cycle route and passes FIB on his way to Le Martinet.
The al-Hilli party motor from their camp site in Saint Jorioz,
they go the long way around?
This is so they shadow Sylvain Mollier’s route, they do not want to miss him.
They wait at the pinch point at the FIB building and clown around, giving the appearance of interested goons, it fools nobody as the hamlet is deserted, most of it is shut and for sale.
Anyway, Saad, deposits his family at this point, instructing to carry on clowning, like inane tourists, he pops up to the meeting place, alittle early, to scan the joint for bad peoplem, he sees nobody, trots down combe, collects family and back up combe to the killing area,
Max The reports I saw said SAS took the photos I think there were 3 in arnand pity we can’t see the other 2 .
@ Max & GIP
I cannot find the old martinet that was supposedly near the Martinet parking lot. The closest ones that I could find are these:
http://patrimoine.rhonealpes.fr/dossier/martinet-janin-actuellement-vestiges/b9e2e8f5-c7b4-4781-a3d4-f5c72655edd4
http://patrimoine.rhonealpes.fr/dossier/martinet-de-bredannaz/3d8a8042-fc87-4819-9fa7-062eb70bf282
@ GIP
Could you please try to locate those ruins that you have mentioned? I distinctly remember having read something about the Martinet parking having been the site of a historic mechanical hammer, but I cannot recall ever having seen those ruins.
Le Martinet ruin is on a map, never seen a photo, could be covered in foliage. There are loads in Les Bauges.
For the site in Les-Vignes-de-Combe, Arnand, the wedge shaped buiding wsa built in the 1960’s and houses an hydroelectric turbine, the water passes underneath the property, as it does in the original Martinet there.
Bacchus link was a great find, scroll through the photos.
Pink, Le Refuge du Charbon is just that, it isn’t a place to reside. It is three hours on foot from the Combe d’Ire.
Question:
why does the killing place
have to be Le Martinet?
Peter
Quick reply – off out soon.
A few posts back Max posted a link to an image from ‘www-geoportail-gouv-fr’. On this (web) map you can find the name ‘Le Martinet’ written in black.
Roughly enclosing the word Martinet is a parcel of land outlined in green, with another parcel in green to its left below the road. I think that together they form a tranche of land that went with the works.
The site Max got his image from, was almost certainly the one I looked at. There seemed to be some way of bringing up older maps and I think the location of the works was shown on an old pre-war map.
From memory it was near the next road bridge across the Ire, there seems to be a nice flat bit of land near the river there which could be it. I think that the foundations only remain and may not be easily visible.
If the al-Hilli party wanted to meet with Sylvain Mollier
why not just meet him at the FIB in Les-Vignes-de-Combe, Arnand?
Perhaps there was to be a third party involvement
and that third party had picked the Martinet?
@ Good In Parts, 16 Aug, 2015 – 12:45 pm
Thanks, I have got it. I think that one can see it right at the upper end of the Martinet parking, a few metres uphill from the info map there. Check it out in Google Streetview:
https://www.google.com/maps/@45.7292392,6.2242792,3a,75y,173.69h,92.46t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLfeCUb_3FytmvJRAcqkxmA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
There is a water chute made out of stone on the left-hand side of the road (as you look uphill) and a water outlet on the right-hand side. Apparently, the operators of the mechanical hammer at the Martinet tapped into one of the smaller tributaries flowing down the valley into the Ire, the Ruisseau de la Bourgeoise. (Note that the site of the Martinet as shown on the map is quite a distance away from the Ire itself.) The spot at the upper end of the Martinet parking lot must have been where they let the waste water flow into the Ire, using a channel underneath the road. In order to see more of the site, one would need to clamber uphill on the left-hand side of the road, following the chute.
@M That can’t be the right place then I will have to trawl the archive and see if I can find it .
Could any of you FRENCH linguists explain this mumbojumbo?
“€ 10,000 fine for concealment of breach of the confidentiality of investigations.”
Le directeur de la rédaction de BFMTV Hervé Béroud et le journaliste Dominique Rizet ont été condamnés ce vendredi par le tribunal d’Annecy pour avoir publié des photos de l’enquête sur la tuerie de Chevaline.La chaîne et le journaliste devront verser 10 000 € d’amende pour recel de violation du secret de l’instruction.
Le procureur d’Annecy Eric maillaud et les avocats de la famille du cycliste savoyard Sylvain Mollier avaient porté plainte après la diffusion de photos montrant la scène du crime (avec la voiture de la famille al-Hilli et le corps du cycliste gisant à terre, criblés de balles) et de la famille al-Hilli au complet avant le meurtre Des photos que le journaliste Dominique Rizet avait présentées et commentées à l’antenne.
Les membres de la famille de Sylvain Mollier, qui s’étaient constitués partie civile, ont été déboutés, le tribunal estimant qu’il n’y avait pas de lien direct entre leur préjudice et le recel de violation du secret de l’instruction. A noter que le tribunal a relaxé le directeur de la publication du Parisien, Jean Hornain, et n’a pas retenu les charges de reproduction illicite d’une scène de crime et d’atteinte à l’intégrité d’un cadavre.
“Ce jugement prouve qu’il y a des limites à respecter”
Une charge que le procureur Eric Maillaud avait tenté de défendre pour contourner la législation actuelle, indiquant que seule la victime directe d’un telle atteinte peut porter plainte, ce qui restreint ce recours aux seules personnes vivantes.
Un jugement qui intervient quelques mois après la politique déclenchée par le traitement des attentats de janvier par les chaînes d’info continue. “L’objectif était de faire passer le message que, même au nom de l’information, tout n’était pas possible et je pense que ce jugement y contribuera, a réagi le procureur d’Annecy Eric Maillaud ce vendredi soir. Il y a des choix à faire, dans le respect des personnes, de celui de la loi, dans la forme de ce qu’on communique. Il y a des questions à se poser. On ne peut pas tout faire juste pour se prévaloir de la primauté d’une information.”
Le procureur d’Annecy, satisfait du verdict, n’a pas l’intention de faire appel, estimant un recours probable de la part de BFMTV et du journaliste Dominique Rizet.
http://www.ledauphine.com/france-monde/2015/05/29/chevaline-bfmtv-et-dominique-rizet-condamnes-a-10-000-euros-d-amende
MN, they (family) objected to the photos being shown on TV (from a stolen/leaked CD, put together for the police in Paris), the court found against BFMTV and their journalist Rizet.
As much as they were interesting, I think I would have gone nuts if these photos from the police file of my dead partner/father/brother had been made public.
They (the family) were right and the French Police should be trying to find the mole, but Rizet does not have to reveal his source, it is the law. End of.
Peter
Quick reply – pressed for time.
I don’t think that the streetview link you posted is the site but rather it shows the culvert that allows the Ruisseau de la Bourgeoise to run under the road into the Ire.
The site I think is most likely is at least 50 meters further on up the combe from the first hairpin.
Try using a bird’s eye style view and then rotate. A rectange of land that has been cut into the hillside and roughly levelwd, approx 30m x 75m in size ‘pops out’ to my eyes because of The different height and type of vegetation.
Peter
Ici
https://www.google.com/maps/@45.7275344,6.224318,319m/data=!3m1!1e3
I could be wrong though. This block of land could just be a yard or storage area for the works. There are a couple of other spots a little bit further on that also look good from a water power perspective.
More gun madness in FRANCE
http://www.france24.com/en/20150816-manhunt-after-twin-assailants-shoot-police-officer-near-paris
If Lyon motorcycle man did not see William Brett Martin
and if William Brett Martin did not see Lyon motorcycle man:
then either W.B.M. is not telling the truth or
LYON man is not telling the truth or
there is a second motorcyclist.
This is why I say it is quite important to know who gave the information to the police artist to produce the E-FIT-SKETCH.
Eric Maillaud would like us to believe that the informant was ONF2
however there is a problem with that:
LYON motorcycle man says he does not own and has never used a special side opening helmet.
As it is “quite” important to know if there was only ever one motorcyclist
or other motorcyclists,
we need to have this laid out in clear visible order Mr. Maillaud, time to come out from your shadow world.
only a few weeks to go Mr. Maillaud until three years have whistled past your ears, with no discernible results!!!
Well for those of you who still think a lone nutter did all the killing ( without any government involvement)
read this about
Gareth Williams
This so far unknown line of inquiry raises questions about how Mr Williams, a maths genius and expert cryptographer, really met his end. It also supports his family’s suspicions he was murdered by ‘agents specialising in the dark arts of the secret services’.
Mr Williams had been working with the American National Security Agency in Washington before returning to London, where he underwent training and was sent on active operations
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3199587/Agents-killed-body-bag-spy-got-flat-skylight-destroy-evidence-New-theory-solve-mystery-five-years-later.html
Tampering with the crime scene after it had been sealed indeed,
Eric Maillaud would have a fit.