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http://www.geoportail.gouv.fr/accueil
Go to IGN and keep zooming in, you’ll see Le Martinet as an area, can’t find the map I posted to MZT showing there was a ruin.
And for good measure I found the old brochure:
http://www.lesbauges.com/cms/images/Pdf/carte-reserve.PDF
@MN “why does the killing place have to be Le Martinet?”
Because “châtiment corporel”
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martinet_(instrument)
Found it on a historic map. Unfortunately I can’t overlay. It seems to be between the barrier and the first hairpin (or it is near the first hairpin). Anyway, it must be there somewhere
Btw, notice that in older times the road was what we called the ‘parallel’ road. It seems the current road alongside the river didn’t exist then
https://deadzone61.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/www-geoportail-gouv-fr_le_martinet_historic.png
The map I used is here (hope the link works for you)
http://www.geoportail.gouv.fr/donnee/56/carte-de-l-etat-major-en-couleur?c=-0.6350208105697915,46.68999362046978&z=0.0071830360217065466&l=GEOGRAPHICALGRIDSYSTEMS.ETATMAJOR40$GEOPORTAIL:OGC:WMTS%281%29&permalink=yes
So … when SAH returned on his second visit after FIB he chatted in the car that it (the Martinet) must be somewhere near that parking where they were the first time.
SAH and Zainab got out of the car.
SAH perhaps started to re-read the info panel, see if he had missed something, while Zainab went to the riverside. Because the ‘Martinet’ would be somewhere near water (the river)
The other stayed in the car, waiting for info on the next thing to do (e.g. get out and have a look at the ‘Martinet’)
(in the double visit)
SAH decided at FIB to go up again(!) to look again for this ‘martinet’. He must have been triggered by something. A person, or a info panel or something
I did look with streetview if there was some info panel at FIB. I didn’t see any 🙁
@ Good In Parts, 16 Aug, 2015 – 5:32 pm
Yes, I spotted that site as well, and I would agree with you that it is quite suitable in principle. However, its location doesn’t match the location of the Martinet plot of land on the geoportail.gouv.fr map. Conversely, that water chute immediately uphill from the Martinet parking lot that I pointed out looks both too ancient and distinctly over-engineered to be a mere culvert intended to allow the Ruisseau de la Bourgeoise to run under the road into the Ire. A simple length of large-diameter tubing beneath and across the road would have sufficed for the latter purpose. The site that I have in mind for the factory/workshop itself is straight east (uphill) from that water chute, above the first hairpin curve, where there is a cleared/levelled patch of ground.
However, I don’t think that the precise location matters that much. The point is whether or not SAH could have expected to see remnants of a historic mechanical hammer within walking distance of the Martinet parking lot, and I think that we have established that he could.
A Sunday night sketch … just for fun
“SAH had a scheduled visit on September 4 (Moise Day) with a real estate agency at the Martinet (retribution) , 377 route du moulin. But on September 4 because they had changed camp one day earlier, he could not go. For this reason, the real estate agent came to SAH in the new camp and discussed. They agreed to another visit at 3 pm in the parking Martinet (377 route du moulin), but the Sah clock still had an English hour. SAH waited, waited … but nobody came …”
Peter, the Route Forestiere, took 20years to build, started in the 1930’s when the forest became managed, this all because the local economy was being run by the use of the trees for the forges and making charcoal.
This is why there are now meadows and new trees planted.
Max your deadzone link is the map I posted on MZT, if you zoom there is a red dot, I assume that is its placement, beside the M, and beside the Ire.
The path crosses the Ire beside it, must be the site of the current bridge. So not too far from the hairpin and second information sign.
@Peter
« However, I don’t think that the precise location matters that much. The point is whether or not SAH could have expected to see remnants of a historic mechanical hammer within walking distance of the Martinet parking lot, and I think that we have established that he could. »
But how?
I’m sure SAH didn’t use the map I posted.
If I advance the double visit, with LFR 14h40 … it seems like SAH drove directly to Martinet. Expecting what? Expecting this ‘martinet’ (historical hammer thingy)
That is a great explanation. But the question becomes. How did SAH know about this ‘Martinet’ when he left the camping? (because he drove straight to Le Martinet)
You’d think SAH must have misinterpreted some info, because the thing near MArtinet is a ruin. Nothing to see, but SAH was expecting a ‘nice site’. From this you’d think SAH got it from a map or something (not from a person, because the person would say it was just a ruin)
@ Max
I am equally sure that SAH did not study any historical maps. Moreover, his French was not fluent, almost certainly insufficiently fluent for him to be able to enquire about details such as the condition of historical buildings. However, as an engineer, he would have been aware of the region’s long tradition of metal production and metalwork, and he might have been sufficiently interested to look up the word “martinet” in a dictionary.
One way in which I could imagine events unfolding as per your double-visit scenario is that he indeed got the Martinet parking lot from a map when he set off. (Or perhaps he only looked up the word “martinet” after the place had been recommended to the family as “a nice place for a walk”.) He drives there and finds that the place is not such a nice place for a walk after all and that there is no mechanical hammer in sight. He consults the map again and finds the Flat-Iron Building. That building does indeed look as if it housed a Martinet, but it is not open to the public, and anyway the original martinet inside has long been removed. At the FIB, he meets the helpful person who takes a snapshot of the entire family. He seizes this opportunity, gets out his map, points at the Martinet parking lot and asks the photographer something along the lines of, “Is there a martinet up there?”. Not quite sure what SAH is after, the person nods …
The trouble with any such scenario characterising the AH family as having been on a specific touristy mission – finding a historic mechanical hammer to look at – on that fateful day is that it makes their movements explicable to us in hindsight, but impossible to predict for the killer. Even if the killer had known that the AHs were looking for a historic martinet, there are simply too many of those in the region for the killer to lie in wait at any particular one. Moreover, that touristy mission rules out SAH having been lured up to the Martinet parking lot, a secret meeting having been arranged there and so forth.
@ Peter
I completely agree with you above scenario/route !
Let’s assume SAH was indeed interested in the engineering things. Yup, I do the same on vacation, only with rocks, like menhirs/dolmen:) It gives sightseeing around a little extra bit.
– So SAH drove to Martinet, because he thought to find a ‘martinet’ there
– Nothing to see, so SAH turns around
– Passes FIB and sees/knows/recognizes this as a ‘martinet’
Now comes the essential part. Somehow SAH goes back to Martinet. Because SAH realizes he has missed the ‘martinet’ at Martinet.
Imho this only could have happened through:
– SAH getting new info, from a map or info panel … (but there is no info panel at FIB)
or
– A (local) person telling SAH that there indeed is some old ‘martinet’ (ruin) to see at Martinet
…
Well, we have the mystery photographer. If that mystery photographer took the picture at FIB, then we have a full circle. I will go even further. If above happened then imho SAH was not the target (as you say, the logistics for X to kill SAH at MArtinet as incredible). SM was the target. Remember that a double visit removes the X5 (imho ONF1 mistook SAH for an X5)
…
As no local came forward, but there still is this mystery photographer, we might be looking at SM being the photographer. So …
IF the mystery photo is taken at FIB, and we guesstimate SM being the mystery photographer (SM, welder, metalurgie, martinet) and SM redirecting SAH to Martinet
THEN WBM is/might-be X. Because WBM lied about seeing SM in Chevaline!! (SM was on route du Moulin/FIB)
…
If WBM was already up there, he had to guesstimate the routes of SM, SAH, etc. He never knew about the pictures, never knew about SM over route du Moulin, never knw SM bumped into/spoke to SAH, etc. etc.
…
So :
– If Zainab remembers the double visit
– If Zainab remembers looking for ‘martinets’
– If Zainab remembers the mystery photographer (at FIB)
– If Zainab remembers a biker at FIB (SM)
One of these things would be great
…
What can we do? 1 thing we can try to find out. And that is the location of that MYSTERY PHOTO. If that MYSTERY PHOTO is 1 of the 3 photo’s around 15h15 we know enough!! We know then know the mystery photo was taken around FIB!!
http://www.ledauphine.com/faits-divers/2015/03/07/un-mysterieux-photographe-recherche-cbbm
« Troisième et dernier personnage mystère, celui qui a pris les al-Hilli en photo, devant un mur fleuri de Chevaline, quelques minutes seulement avant le drame, avec l’appareil photo de la famille. Un individu encore non identifié dont on ne sait pas s’il accompagnait la famille ou s’il a seulement croisé sa route à ce moment-là. Un photographe qui a immortalisé le portrait d’une famille souriante, visiblement inconsciente de la tragédie qui allait se jouer moins d’une demi-heure plus tard , ne laissant que les deux survivantes : les deux fillettes al-Hilli, présentes sur la photo avec leurs parents et leur grand-mère maternelle. »
If the killing was around 15h35/40 and we go back ‘moins d’une demi-heure’ … we arrive at … tada … 15h15
It seems that indeed this mystery photo was 1 of the 3 taken around FIB!!!!!!
(I need confirmation, and I’ll try to get it from journo’s)
Bold prediction
The mystery photo ‘devant un mur fleuri’ was taken here
https://deadzone61.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/www-google-nl_route_du_moulin_fib_2.png
@ Max, 17 Aug, 2015 – 11:39 am
I entirely agree with your bold prediction, which I do not consider to be that bold at all, just common sense. I also agree that the mysterious X5 actually was SAH’s BMW – if my memory serves me right, I was the first to come up with that idea 😉
Where you are getting too bold in jumping to conclusions for my taste is in regard to the potential involvement of SM and WBM. I don’t think that SM was the mystery photographer, first because WBM spotted him elsewhere, secondly because an ambitious cyclist on a fast training run is very unlikely to stop for a chat with strangers, or be asked by strangers to stop. Personally, I consider it more likely that the mystery photographer, if ever identified, will turn out to be some entirely honourable person, another tourist perhaps, who dismissed any niggling doubts that he or she might be the one in question by concluding that it would be best not to become involved in such a sordid, potentially dangerous affair.
Insofar as WBM is concerned, looking at potential motives, I struggle to see why he would have wanted to kill the AH family. I also don’t see how he could have got rid of the gun. He would have needed to hide it somewhere very near the scene of the crime, under extreme time pressure, yet it was never discovered. That circumstance alone rules him out in my view.
@ Peter
Of course I do wonder (in above scenario) why/how fast biker SM was stopped by SAH to take the photo. Yet I don’t rule it out (in this scenario). It has to be tested. Tests are :
1. Is the mystery photo really at/around FIB?
2. If so, does Zainab remember the photographer? Was it perhaps a biker?
3. If so, WBM is lying about SM (I take this from the BBC panorama doc which puts WBM/SM in Chevaline)
In this scenario I then have to put WBM = X, with SM = Target
Because (in this scenario) WBM was waiting at Martinet and CS is instrumental for SM to be biking we arrive at a connection between CS and WBM, so … :
4. Is there a connection between CS and WBM?
– – –
2 ways to tackle this particular scenario.
I mused about WBM/SM before. What motive? CS in the middle. Romantic/Relation. CS as ‘femme fatale’. I did simply put forward the idea that Louis is WBM’s kid. Easy to verify. By DNA. Is Louis WBM’s kid? SM found out. Perhaps no problem for the french, but WBM (not a french) wanted to keep it secret.
That is the Martinet in Les Vignes de la Combe/Arnand, it isn’t in Chevaline. The local Press wrote Chevaline, so I guess the entire family photo was in Chevaline and must be before 15:12, as the three are said to be the last.
The double visit puts SAH arrival at Le Martinet 14:50, with the black and white MC already at the clearing.
What happens to the 10 minutes between the ONF1 and ONF2 sightings of a MC ? What happens to the balding/shaved/high forehead dark skinned driver? What happens to a much higher vehicle than the Estate car ?
Then again if ONF2 made mistakes in the description of the Lyon MC, why the heck not ?
Zainab makes no mention of being there earlier, although a child may not recognise one clearing from another. She says she saw a 4×4 but not a cyclist.
TP writes the three photos between 15:12 and 15:17 taken in route du Moulin were of each adult taking it in turns to be the photographer, not the entire family.
The double visit doesn’t work on many levels, having to change timings by about 30 minutes, identification of the car, the driver, the key is to ask if Lyon MC recalls being passed by ONF1 before he was told off by ONF2 and is the description of the MC the same for all ONF witnesses.
LFR testimony has changed times and whether he saw any other vehicle all the way through to TP writing he didn’t see any other vehicle to the initial reports he did before SAH and nothing passing through within 30 minutes in either direction.
Of course, it doesn’t mean there wasn’t other vehicles, just that he didn’t see them, same applies to Claude Antoine.
And then there are the 15 other photos taken that day, Maillaud said of typical chalets and fermettes. Add in the moveable feast of the time the family left the Campsite ranging from mid-day to 14:30.
We are still all stabbing in the dark, EM knows the timings and their route that day, by those very photos.
I asked the following people about the time/location of the mystery photo again today :
– Ducos
– Bouchet
– Rizet
– Parry
Through Twitter PM. I hope one of these guys will give me the info. I do not see the problem with giving me this info. They don’t know what to do with that info. I do. So give me the piece 🙂
Cycling gloves leave your finger bare.
If Sylvain Mollier was the person who took the photograph of the family al-Hilli at FIB
his fingerprints should be the last ones on the camera.
I expect Eric Maillaud would have dusted the al-Hilli camera for prints by now, he has had almost THREE YEARS.
I expect the bicycle of Sylvain Mollier was also dusted for prints?
Whatever happened to that eXpensive bike, was it handed back to the family of Mr.Mollier?
Did the FRENCH investigators find the phone of Mr.Mollier, if they did they should dust that for prints too.
@ MN
True, there could/should be fingerprints, but the mystery photo wasn’t the last one.
MN, not all cycling gloves leave the fingers bare. Take a look at Panorama and Martins gloved hands as he rides, on the day he must have had fingerless gloves because he took Molliers pulse, but also commented he had gloved hands and was able to push in an already shattered and holed drivers side window. Not that I think Mollier took the photo.
The photos in Les Vignes/Arnand were the last ones, they didn’t include the entire family photo taken infront of a flower covered wall in CHEVALINE.
To make the double visit viable, so many things have to change, great idea but much else would need to be explained, Thierry Boinet saying many people saw the speeding car, a car seen at a toll and so on for example.
Max, you would be better off asking them if they know the timing and location of the other 15 photos.
MN, they identified Mollier due to his phone.
I mentioned his phone
because it is possible the LYON motorcycle man without a name, left his dabs on it.
A burglary gone wrong.
who writes this stuff.
From an Interior ministry building with a gun room?
http://www.france24.com/en/20150816-manhunt-after-twin-assailants-shoot-police-officer-near-paris
That’s what they said after Nicole Communal-Tournier
was shot dead in her campsite home in Lathuile.
Last month, the Defence Ministry announced plans to reinforce security at its military facilities following the theft of explosives.
Some 40 grenades, 180 detonators and an unknown quantity of plastic explosives were stolen from the Miramas base, west of Marseille, after thieves cut through a perimeter fence.
If it was a burglary gone wrong in an Interior ministry building
it was not for ordinary theft, more like one government organ,
getting dirt on another government organ.
That would be why the guard was not hurt much and why nobody saw nuthin.
I expect they asked BM and LFR and mate did they take the photo or did they see who did and Sylvie of course on her way out to the shop and the lady on the balcony and Mr Bewick if he had turned up by then and Mr Ducher worrying about his cows or they could be talking BS again come on EM show us the photo.
The gloved or not gloved hands of Martin, hmm. He could have taken off his right hand glove to take Molliers pulse and then pushed through the car window, near the wing mirror with his left, angle looks like that. Reach in and turn off the engine. As for tampering with a crime scene, he didn’t, he was looking to save lives.
He also was photographed on his return to France with a blue plaster on one of his left hand fingers.
MN, you really need to read about the 95%, two instructing judges have cleared him, the 95% refers to the profile they feel they have of the gunman.