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So M
if the LYON man riding a motorcycle
claims he did not see William Brett Martin
and W.B.M. saw a very slow riding motorcyclist, coming down the combe, as W.B.M. was ascending to the scene of the slaughter.
Who is the M/C seen descending as W.B.M. is ascending;
LYON man or another or is W.B.M. a liar?
I went off into old thread looking for the house they found for sale not a good idea it’s like a novel I can’t put down ,they considered at one point that X could have held Z captive with the gun to extract something from SAH, information or whatever he might have that was wanted,at that point they were talking about a satellite in deorbit (don’t ask.)
It could work though negotiation with Z as encouragement and in comes SM on his bike and say’s hey(insert name )what are you doing you toerag ,Z gets clubbed and the shooting starts finally a few words with SM before the final shot .
I don’t hold out much hope for this idea unless the person was known to SM and on a short fuse and SAH was up to something local like smuggling drugs or Mastro’s jewels,and I still haven’t found what I’m looking for just like Bono .
@M I am not convinced BM is off the hook something convinced EM he was .
What was the reason for all that early nonsense about BM made the phone call then PD then PB there was some fixing going on .
BM thought there had been an accident ,how many times had SM been shot forgive me for not remembering it got a little confusing even for EM ?
BM thought Z was playing with her sibling ,the one who was hidden from view for how many hours not a sound,despite having been in a car blasted by bullets and everyone very dead .
He hung around long enough to interfere with the crime scene and like you I would like to think it was with the best of intentions then he went back a second time with PD aka PB by which time he knew for sure they had been shot ,none of them took Z away from there something is not right .
In the early days I was really intrigued by this, yet another, timely coincidence
MARTIN: Luckily only about something like three or four hundred yards away as I was racing down the hill a car was coming up
Racing down with a bike = 30 km/h
30 km/h = 1 km in 2 minutes = 350 meters in 40 seconds
In other words. WBM jumps on his bike and bumps into PB in 40 seconds
In the early days I always had the impression WBM jumped on the bike when he heard a car coming up
… because PB would have arrived at Martinet within 40 seconds. But because of WBM he (PB) was effectively stalled, and only arriving at Martinet/Scene many minutes later.
The sole reason WBM gives is the ‘no signal’ thingy.
But the ‘play of seconds’ is intriguing.
Could speculate perhaps it was to allow someone time to leave with the gun and what ever was in SM’s pocket .
Anyone figured out what happened to the roof rack ?
Its possible that PD aka PB didn’t arrive by car at all but walked in on BM in the early days BM made the phone call they invented the rest later .
Max how long to you think all the extra PD stuff took and what difference might it make to the timeline if it was taken out ?
Did PD/PB see William Brett Martin’s slow riding motorcyclist, descending the combe?
Is the last we have heard from Eric Maillaud,
the Annecy court case to shut down media debate?
What of the two women ? And their arrival at the Ducher farm before the Emergency Services arived ? It would take alot longer to walk back down.
Bossy drove a bit further up after meeting Martin and turned the car around for a quick escape.
They didn’t walk up, from early Facebook chatter, they were in a white 4×4 with black windows.
http://www.societe.com/societe/monsieur-philippe-bossy-424604304.html
He is also an ‘Immo Partenaire’ – anyone can set themselves up as this, the property where he lives has undergone building work.
In the meantime, here is a more recent photo:
http://www.ladepeche.fr/article/2014/07/30/1926387-ils-ont-fait-le-tour-a-leur-facon.html
He does presentations of the Tour de France and his exploits as a Mountain Guide.
There are many guides who take people hiking in Les Bauges and stay overnight in the Refuges, the sunrise is said to be magnificent.
Coincidentally there is a Philippe Bossy in Crachier (33)that does just that !
MN, there have been plenty of Press Reports since the complaints against BFMTV, this related to the unauthorised photos being STOLEN, handed over to the broadcaster and they putting them in the public domain. They were interesting for us as onlookers and ‘anoraks’ to see, but not the stuff needed to be seen by Molliers children, don’t you agree ?
Maybe Rizet should have contacted the family to say they were going to show them on TV, then again, one phone call to EM by the family and they would never have got to the screen.
@M
“Coincidentally there is a Philippe Bossy in Crachier”
That is my understanding that he seemed to be the right one ,there is a carpenter with that name as well I am not 100% sure which is the correct one the Crachier one seems the best fit following up these french leads is just to time consuming for me.
I am not doubting Mr PD/PB are we sure they are the same BTW,
just EM’s version he did add it in and I can’t see why, what is all the change of name about if PD/PB didn’t see anything and just made the phone call then why not just say so .
I have no reason to think BM is lying as it goes I just cannot see how EM can rule him out he was there with blood on his hands and no witnesses to his version of events ,the main reason for ruling him out would be no evidence he fired the gun, as Max pointed out he held PD/PB at bay for a time did someone else make
off with the gun and was BM an accomplice EM doesn’t think so so he must know something we do not ,changing the first version BM made the call to PD/PB made the call makes changes to the timings
that are to subtle for my peas sized brain .
What is not quite so difficult is to see is that something is not right so keep juggling the pieces and one would be PD/PB coming back to his car and walking in on BM now that would be a reason to hide him prime witness.
BTW I won’t quite my day job I honestly do not have a clue what the answer is .
Ah, ze gloves. That is another reason why one can safely rule out WBM as a suspect. If he had been the killer, he would have to have got rid of
– the pistol
– two spare magazines
– another pair of gloves (with plenty of gunshot residue on them)
– some kind of long-sleeved garment (also with plenty of GSR on it)
within a very short space of time, before changing back into his cycling gear, thoroughly disturbing the scene of the crime, and finally toddling off to seek help.
” Won’t quit” Sorry about typos running late and typing quickly .
Pink, Bossy is from Annecy he is now 44, 41 at the time and with a daughter (the latter elements were in the Press)
I think the best way the PB/PD thing should have been handled is as in the British Press, using a *, then below saying *the names have been changed.
The man you see in the photo in the above article, is the man on Panorama and he was the man I found yonks ago on MZT, when he was giving one of his talks at a Home for the Elderly about Mont Blanc.
Peter, I go along with you, I can see no reason why Martin would be paraded on TV if he was the gunman, or an accomplice (least of all if he was acting on behalf of British Intelligence, which is the only way I could see him being implicated, the likelihood of him being out to murder Mollier from UGINE must be close to nil).
I think consideration needs to be given to the enormity of the crime, Martin was taken to a safe house, logic, he’d have been doorstepped pdq by the hacks in Lathuile.
He says he spoke out because the hacks had discovered where he lived in Brighton, it was out of consideration to his wife, children and the neighbours.
Mustn’t forget if he changed his clothes and gloves, then got rid of them, before managing to get blood on them again, a Max thought here, he gave them to the Motorcyclist, not Lyon man because in the double visit he had already left the scene long before the arrival of the victims. The other Motorcyclist ……
Anything is possible.
I wondered for a long time if the gunman arrived on foot, this would take far too long, he would have had to have started out before the victims left their starting points, if there was a target.
Escape on foot, maybe a quick hike down the Combe, amongst the trees to a waiting vehicle, in Arnand, 4kms downhill in rough terrain, about 50mins to an hour, that seems too long but doable.
He could even have been watching the arrival of the Emergency Services and remained at the road block, I always fancied ’emotional Cedric’ from a neighbouring village for that role !
@ M.
I wondered for a long time if the gunman arrived on foot, this would take far too long, he would have had to have started out before the victims left their starting points, if there was a target.
If this was a pre-planned assassination, the killer would have been really, really stupid to let potential witnesses see his vehicle, if he had any. If this was a robbery-gone-wrong, the killer would have been really, really stupid to let the AHs and/or other potential witnesses see his vehicle, if he had any. The only scenario in which I could imagine the killer taking his vehicle to the scene of the crime would be some kind of road-rage incident.
Leaving aside the road-rage scenario, I consider it most likely that the killer planned to flee on foot, at least for the first few hundred meters. That would require him hiding his vehicle somewhere out of sight from the scene of the crime. As a two-wheeled vehicle is so much easier to hide than a car, I would bet on a scooter or bicycle.
Unfortunately, I have never come across any information as to whether or not the gendarmerie used tracker dogs to search for the perpetrator. If they did, those dogs would have picked up his trail even after days. If he had relevant military training, he would have foreseen that possibility and first waded along the Ire for a bit, both in order to outfox any tracker dogs (who mostly trail the scent of disturbed soil and vegetation rather than that of a specific individual) and to give his hands, clothes as well as the gun a good wash. If he was still in the area when the helicopter with the thermal-imaging camera went up, the river bed would also have been the best place for him to hide from that camera, simply by getting his clothes soaking wet. All that may sound a bit Ramboesque, but then the gendarmerie are looking for a deranged Rambo type.
I can imagine a scenario
where a motorcycle drives up the combe with a pillion passenger, the passenger gets off, takes his shooting equipment, from the top box, puts his helmet/ motorcycle clothing in the top box and then walks into the woodland, the motorcyclist drives off, down combe, never having touched a gun/ammunition, if he is stopped, he doesn’t not know anything, yet the gun man is hiding in the forest, ready for the meet.
In the above scenario, the shootist would have first parked his car in a public parking space, and walked off, to be collected by the motorcyclist.
If the motorcyclist is detained, after the shooting , he just says he was there to follow his hobby of paragliding.
The shootist, meanwhile, discards the gun in the forest, a long way from the slaughter scene.
Then he walks back to his car.
A good place for the motorcyclist to have dropped the pillion/shootist, would be higher up than Le Martinet, this way they would not be spotted in the five minutes it took for the pillion to get his shooting gear out and stow in the bushes, then get out of his motorcycle garb and stash that in the top box/panniers.
The shootist then melts in to the forest untill the motorcyclist has departed, then the shootist prepares for the slaughter.
Well MN, that sounds good, except that ONF1 saw a MC at Le Martinet who was alone, then again the second man could have already alighted and gone undercover.
From my stance, I find the 4×4 dropping someone off far more likely and sometime before the Al-Hillis were due to arrive. But I would say that wouldn’t I.
Lyon man isn’t involved, although I can see why you rather like the idea, as you are dealing with Mr Nobody.
Please consider, Mr Lyon WAS NOT practising his hobby of paragliding up THERE, it is not allowed, check out the map for parapent in Doussard/Lac Annecy, so he would not have gotten away with the explanation if collared on the day.
Peter, I wonder how soon they sent up the heat seeking helicopter ?
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/french-alps-shooting-live-blog-1307082 …. dogs
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/french-alps-press-conference-live-1310796 …. Iqbals long name.
For Peter and Lars, Alabdi and Iqbal did qualify the same year:
n° 39 اقبال عبد االمير ظاھر = Iqbal Abdul Amir Dhahir
and her fellow dentist:
Zaid Alabdi
Real name : Zaid Jafar Alabdi
Nickname : zaidjafar
Baghdad College From 1976 > Graduated/Left in 1982
In 1987:
113 Zaid Yousef Jaafar زيد جعفر يوسف
Dr, Zaid Jaafar Yousif, Alabdi, Kingston Upon Thames
Not easy to follow the many names and loss of surnames.
All the information via the website Patrimoine Rhones-Alpes wasn’t there in 2012, here is mention of the ‘forge’, 4kms upstream from the Vignes de la Combe:
http://patrimoine.rhonealpes.fr/dossier/moulins-aux-vignes-de-la-combe-puis-taillanderie-bertholio-puis-martinet-bertholiot-et-scierie-laperriere/4af7f3c9-72d0-4a0e-9009-2e05bf45aa98
“L´eau du torrent de l´Ire relevant d´une abbaye reste difficilement exploitable mais sous l´Empire français, plusieurs écrits témoignent de l´implantation d´un Forge à la Combe de l´Ire. Implantée à plus de 4 km en aval des artifices situés aux Vignes de la Combe au sud du hameau d´Armand, ce site est à l´origine de l´implantation d´un artisanat du fer sur les rives de l´Ire.”
If anyone is interested there are lots of historical buildings in the area, that could be why the receptionist at Le Solitaire directed them to Chevaline. I doubt if it was to actually seek out Martinets.
So, if someone at the campsite overheard a meet being set up (or thought there was to be a meet rather than a tourist wander) and all they had to go on were the words ‘Martinet at Chevaline’ and they want to get there early for, let’s say, the purpose of robbery. How do they find the place?
The parking area does not appear on the tourist map posted upthread as ‘le Martinet’ nor on other recent maps.
If they did not know that there was a place known locally as ‘le Martinet parking’ which they could not find on their map or satnav then they would have a problem.
Driving to Chevaline and asking a local would work, but would be risky for obvious reasons.
They might get lucky with a search engine and be led to an old map and grab the lat/long of the ruin rather than the parking place for their satnav (esentially this is a variant of my 14 Aug, 2015 – 5:09 pm post theory).
Generally I am a ‘mistake’ theorist rather than conspiracy theorist, so my focus is on sources of error, as it were.
It does seem a bit contrived, but the difference in the locations could have been just enough to cause confusion.
Or, someone finds the name ‘Le Martinet’ on a web map as Max did:-
https://deadzone61.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/www-geoportail-gouv-fr_le_martinet.png
Now, this map is outstanding (for my theory at least) as the phrase ‘le Martinet’ is completely disconnected from the parking place!
Seriously, look at the map and point to le Martinet.
And interestingly it seems to be connected to the area of land outlined in green and crossed by the road up the side of the valley above the actual parking place itself.
EM says the killer came from above.
Who was waiting up there?
GIP, if the family were the targets, they were followed, I don’t know how they were followed, just because a vehicle wasn’t seen on the way up doesn’t mean it wasn’t there, afterall whilst LFR says he had to move something out of the way for SAH to pass, M. Ducher thinks he may have seen the car ‘about an hour’ before the arrival of the emergency services/Bossy, which would be an hour and a half using LFR 14:40. It could have been another car. Mme Ducher didn’t see anything.
Unless someone was on sentry duty, how can they be sure, all they can say is I didn’t see a vehicle. LFR makes no mention of seeing two cyclists or Bossy, who also approached the Combe from Chevaline.
I’d still like to see the proof the 4×4 seen by Martin was ONF, even the cops say they’re not sure. Ducos didn’t report it being the Citroen Visa Fourgonette anywhere, that would be a scoop, so why didn’t he ?
Martin can’t identify the vehicle. ONF1 is the only person who says BMW X5, Vinneman says could be an X3, so only one person puts a name to it. Others in the surrounding area saw a speeding 4×4. Zainab saw a 4×4.
There is a 4×4 that is missing, whether it is a BMW is a moot point.
Max, the double visit requires you to identify the MC already at Le Martinet when ONF1 passed through, maybe he was there to meet SAH (not LyonMC), and someone else was due to be there, so SAH left with a view to returning an hour later ? When they arrived no-one was there, he got out of the car to have a look, they were early, then it all kicked off.
I wonder why Iqbal didn’t try to open her rear door to pull her daughter in, afterall according to TP she was rear passenger side ?
The breaking Max points out, was that when SAH hit Mollier, an automatic reaction ?
Was Zeena used to hiding in the footwell of the car, afterall a child of that age travelling without the required child seat and belt is illegal ? LFR didn’t see her, maybe she was used to being told to hide.
@ M., 18 Aug, 2015 – 6:17 pm
Thank you so much for that tidbit about the tracker dogs, which I had somehow managed to overlook! If they deployed tracker dogs the next day, those dogs would undoubtedly have picked up the trail of the perpetrator if he had fled on foot or on a two-wheeled vehicle (advocates of so-called “man trailer” dogs even claim that those dogs can trace a suspect fleeing in a car for tens of kilometres).
No wonder that they are looking for a Rambo type! I am now pretty confident that the killer climbed down the embankment into the Ire immediately after committing the murders, probably watched WBM doing his thing for a little while, before wading upstream, the noise of the river masking the splashing of his footsteps. That is pretty much the only way in which he could have left the scene of the crime without the dogs effortlessly picking up his trail later on. As the banks of a river bed retain heavier-than-air scent particles within that depression, preventing the particles from being dispersed by wind, he must have done something pretty cunning in order to be able to exit from the river bed without the dogs picking up on his trail, too. He probably went up both sides of the embankment, did a few figures-of-eight on either side, before wading back downstream for a little bit and making a swift exit.
This is not something that an average policeman or gendarme would know how to do. To my mind, the fact that he managed to fool the dogs means he probably has had specialist military escape and evasion training.
Peter, sounds like a film about escaping prisoners !
GIP, I posted that old map on MZT a long time ago that’s why you remember it, would SAH have done a similar search, unlikely.
Campsites and hotels are usually kitted out with information brochures, it would be interesting to know if the receptionist gave them any brochures.
Le Martinet Parking is mentioned over and over as a starting point for walks and hikes, it could be that simple.
I tend towards them just driving as far into the mountains they could go.
Hi all, I will read up on the presious posts, but first I will post my lastest finding (thanks to M, for giving the first piece)
Remember this house?
http://patrimoine.rhonealpes.fr/img/1ef61a80-de35-4054-962b-54aa2cb3ae64
The flowery house
Now look what the following site is saying!!
http://patrimoine.rhonealpes.fr/dossier/usine-flaquet-dite-usine-fracquet-et-forge-mecanique-bertholiot-puis-scierie-bertholio-puis-societe-bois-sciages-et-caisses-de-grenoble-actuellement-maison-d-habitation/2efdc0dc-bed9-455b-a88b-98e1b59a6284/illustration/9
http://patrimoine.rhonealpes.fr/dossier/usine-flaquet-dite-usine-fracquet-et-forge-mecanique-bertholiot-puis-scierie-bertholio-puis-societe-bois-sciages-et-caisses-de-grenoble-actuellement-maison-d-habitation/2efdc0dc-bed9-455b-a88b-98e1b59a6284
So it was some sort of ‘Usine’ in old times
And FIB?
http://patrimoine.rhonealpes.fr/dossier/moulins-aux-vignes-de-la-combe-puis-taillanderie-bertholio-puis-martinet-bertholiot-et-scierie-laperriere/4af7f3c9-72d0-4a0e-9009-2e05bf45aa98
Interestingly the name … Bertholiot … comes up with both buildings
Now Bertholio is just around the corner on the other side of the crossraods
http://www.motoculture-bertholio-service-haute-savoie.fr/
…
Would Bertholio be the mystery photographer who also pointed/explained SAH towards/about the ‘martinet’ (plural) ?
If you want more ‘martinets’ … well, just follows the link 🙂
http://patrimoine.rhonealpes.fr/recherche/globale?texte=martinet
I do a lot of walking,
the way to be virtually invisible in the deep countryside is
to be a walker.
Your motiives are never questioned, walkers in the countryside, bursting out of the undergrowth, semi-covered in mud, some blood, utterly unexceptional.
In my scenarion, the shootist parks his car in a car park, puts on his walking boots and small back pack, then walks off towards the hills.
Later he is picked up by a mystery motorcyclist who has been watching paragliding in Doussard.
The mystery motorcyclist transports the shootist up the combe to beyond Le Martinet.
The shootist takes the weapon/ammunition from the topbox/panniers and slips into the undergrowth, the mystery motorcylist, returns to the paragliding in Doussard.
The shootist then slaughters the family al-Hilli and Sylvain Mollier.
Most likely ( as Peter has suggested) the shootist clambers up stream in the Ire.
He makes his way down hill, through the forest, something he will have done before, because this would be very confusing unless you had pre-planned.
The shootist, deposits the weapon/s/remaining ammunition in a hole in the ground, also, almost certainly pre-planned, perhaps for much later retrieval.
He walks back to his vehicle, takes his walking boots off, and casually drives away.
TCK is a mystery. Every angle seems legit, however it always seems to run a deadend. This morning there was a shift. Another thought. An angle which was discassed a kzillion times before. The case of mistake id.
There is another coicidence in the long list of strange happenings in TCK, the group/number coincidence
SAH + SM = 1 man + 2 women + 1 biker (ok, plus 1 kid outside, 1 kid inside, invisible)
PB + WBM = 1 man + 2 women + 1 biker
Now this in itself was discussed many a times. But I will throw (for my own fun) another little detail in the mix. Long ago I threw some dice to have an extra mystical element. Later on I always tried to get this indication in line with any scenario I could come up with. The first 8 letters were
hjbi axfg
(if you google this you arrive at MZT where I posted this long ago)
I tried many things, e.g. :
Hilli Joins Brett In Arnand, X Follows Group
But what about the above PB scenario ? Well, I suddenly came up with
Hookers Join Bossy In Annecy, X Follows Group
…
Just a(nother) thought 🙂
It would be quite interesting to know:
how many times on the day of the slaughter,
did Lyon motorcycleman ascend the combe?
If it was multiple times, and M has said an excuse of paragliding is not acceptable,
what could have been Lyon mans reasoning?