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8,072 thoughts on “Not Forgetting the al-Hillis continued”

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  • Reply ↓
    Max

    I had a scenario with this. And in that scenario I ‘predicted’ the mystery picture to be the 15h12 picture, because I thought it was belonging/hoping to that sequence, as I thought that other picture would be timed a lot earlier.

    But, not so it seems.

    15h08 Doussard, would fit perfectly with 15h12/15h17 FIB

    (The 14h40 to be seen later)

    I have to look up my scenario from ‘the private vault’ 🙂

    But, in short it was something like

    – 15h08. P takes mystery picture in Doussard
    – P tells SAH to ‘go to Martinet, I will meet you there’
    – SAH goes slowly to Martinet
    – SAH gets out, waits for the arrival of P
    – BUT … X comes forward and kills SM … with SAH as witness of the killing
    – X scares SAH
    – SAH escapes
    – But SAH gets stuck
    – The ‘X scares away SAH’ plan fails!!
    – Now X has to kill SAH, and so he does

    But why?

    – Because X = P
    – And SAH is P/X’s alibi!

    ?????

    Yes, back in Doussard SAH and P/X did meet. So SAH will testify P/X was IN DOUSSARD!!

    P/X = WBM!

    WBM was on a slow bike

    A slow bike will take at least 30/40 minutes to get from Doussard to Martinet!

    So the 15h08 mystery picture in Doussard gives P/X an 35 minute alibi!

    Because WBM could never be at Martinet before 15h43

    ….

    But what did WBM/P/X do????

    After the 15h08 mystery picture, WBM jumped in the X5, with his bike!!
    WBM had an accomplice, the X5 driver
    The X5 speeds to Martinet
    Drops of WBM+bike
    And the X5 turns around and is not seen again

    WBM/P/X waits for SM to arrive (and waits for SAH to arrive as witness)

    Why???

    Because WBM/P/X has planned this as a ‘nutter attack’ … while inreality it was a direct attack on SM

    WBM/P/X plan was

    1. To kill SM
    2. To make it look like a nutter attack
    3. So he needed some other folks
    4. To shoot at, but not to kill but to scare away

    That is why the BMW didn’t have body shots! Because WBM/P/X wanted the WBM to escape!!!!

    It failed because

    A. Zainab was outside the car
    B. SAH got stuck

    So to still mask the true target, and perhaps because in the end SAH could identify WBM/P/X, WBM/P/X had to kill SAH and the women

    – – –

    Lol, I do really enjoy this over-the-top scenario. But it fits in every little detail!! And it makes sense of all WBM statements

    = = = =

    Remember, for this scenario I predicted the mystery picture to be 15h12. It now seems to be the Doussard house, times at 15h08. So …. how close did I get :):):)

    = = = =

    In short:

    – WBM is X is P
    – SM was target
    – The kill was masked as a nutter attack on a group of people
    – WBM arranged the rest of the group to be SAH
    – SAH also provides the alibi of WBM (Doussard 15h08)

    – Plan fails because of Zainab and stuck BMW
    – WBM now effectively kills his alibi

    (I have to guess WBM/P/X did have some sort of mask during the attack)

    … So, all, chew on this:)

  • Reply ↓
    James

    JMD says “1408 British”.
    So that’s 1508 Local.

    Then the 1515 Local “last photo” at the Flat Iron building…
    …that TP reckons “wasn’t the last photo”.

    Clearly the “facts and figures” are all over the place.

    1. LFR 1440+. Al Hilli heading towards the Combe D’Ire.
    2. Pic 1508. Al Hilli at the “flower house” in Arnand
    3. Pic 1515. Al Hilli at the “flat iron building” near the Combe D’Ire.
    4. WBM 1530+. Al Hilli climbing the Combe D’Ire, heading to the Martinet.

    Of course “two visits” to the Martinet by Al Hilli looks the obvious option.

    BUT driving past LFR and up the Combe D’Ire..(1540).
    And then back down and to Arnand..(1508).
    Then back towards the Combe D’Ire once more…(1515).
    And climb it again… ?

    It’s all very “stop/start”.

    And if they had left something at the Martinet (area) on a first visit, when did they remember this ? At Arnand ? But they don’t rush back to collect it. They take a completely different route back….and stop for a photo en route ???

  • Reply ↓
    Peter

    @ Max, James

    The simplest explanation for the discrepancy in timings would be for LFR’s time stamp to be wrong. Where does that “14:40” time stamp come from, anyway?

    I have tried to go back to the original sources. This was the first interview with LFR
    http://www.rtl.fr/actu/tuerie-de-chevaline-le-dernier-temoin-a-avoir-vu-les-al-hilli-vivants-parle-sur-rtl-7752338052
    and LFR himself does not mention any time at all in it. Rather, it is the reporter who prompts him with “vers quinze heures”.

    The time stamp “vers quinze heures” is parroted in this article
    http://www.rtl.fr/actu/tuerie-de-chevaline-le-dernier-temoin-a-avoir-vu-les-al-hilli-vivants-parle-sur-rtl-7752338052

    So – how and when did “around three in the afternoon” (which in my interpretation could also signify any point in time between three and three thirty) become this oddly specific time of 14:40?

  • Reply ↓
    James

    @Pater

    Granted, reporting (especially “early reports”) can be “all over the place”, and with these murders it is especially true.

    English newspapers carried “varying” reports (with reference to LFR). Those times go from (anywhere between) 2.30pm to 3.00pm.
    Let’s face it, who is to say they (those reporters) are correct OR that the builder made the correct judgement with regard to the time.

    BUT if we take the “general feeling” of LFR, he seems to indicate it was “some time before the shooting (1548-)” that he saw the Al Hilli family pass by.

    But who knows !

  • Reply ↓
    Max

    If you want to kill SM. You can hire a killer. But that killer could blackmail you in return. Or you could do it yourself. But then you need a rock solid alibi. If you do it yourself, you start with the alibi … at least, that is what I would do.

    (and that is what is the subject of dozens a great Columbo episodes:))

  • Reply ↓
    Peter

    It seems that this journo later plucked the 14:40 time stamp out of thin air
    http://www.lejdd.fr/Societe/Faits-divers/Actualite/Le-scenario-minute-par-minute-de-la-tuerie-de-Chevaline-555890

    Again, LFR himself does not give a time for the sighting. What he says is “à dix minutes près”, whatever that may mean. I interpret this to mean that SAH passed him about ten minutes before the time at which, as LFR had later learned, the family were murdered. Does that interpretation make sense to you?

  • Reply ↓
    Peter

    I think that I can actually prove that it was this journo who got the timings wrong, because he wrote
    Il est donc environ 14 h 45 quand Saad Al-Hilli, accompagné de sa femme, de sa belle-mère âgée et de ses deux fillettes, gare sa BMW. , meaning that he wrongly has their arrival at the Martinet at 14:45, not 15:45.

    Leaving aside that error, LFR then saw the BMW ten minutes before 15:45. Assuming that the BMW was travelling at approximately 30 km/h and with a distance of 3 km from the house where LFR was working to the Martinet, that makes complete sense.

  • Reply ↓
    Peter

    Sooo … no discrepancy in timings, no double visit to the Martinet 🙂

    1. 15:08: Photo at the “flower house” in Arnand
    2. 15:15: Photo at the “flat iron building” near the Combe D’Ire.
    3. 15:30: WBM spots SAH heading to the Martinet.
    4. 15:35 LFR spots SAH heading to the Martinet, without anybody following the car.
    5. 15:45 SAH arrives at the Martinet.
    6. 15:48 First call to the emergency services.

  • Reply ↓
    Max

    Hehehe cross post

    I have zero problems with dropping the double visit. Just like a Sudoku, I’m in interesting in the fitting, not in a dumb preference for ‘certain numbers’ 🙂

  • Reply ↓
    Max

    @Peter

    Your route MUST means SAH turned around at FIB! (went back to Arnand and sharp left, another left to pass LFR)

    Are you implying this?

  • Reply ↓
    Peter

    @ Max, 29 Aug, 2015 – 10:33 am

    Let me think about this (during the nice long bike ride on which I am about to embark) 😉

  • Reply ↓
    Max

    Anyway, my major scenario is now

    – WBM is P/X
    – Being P is WBM’s prepped alibi (which he later destroyed himself by killing the SAH’s)
    – Target is SM
    – X5 exist, is friend of WBM, and was used as dropp off vehicle
    – WBM, After taking the 15h08 picture, stepped in the X5. The X5 dropped him off at Martinet

    – WBM has an alibi (SAH will vouch WBM was in Doussard 15h08)
    – X5 has an alibi, if ever found. X5 most surely will say he was in ??? around 15h40

    The weakest point her is the X5 on Combe d’Ire (ONF1). If X5 is found, and is pressed to admit he was on Combe d’Ire, he has to give an explanation.

    Maybe he goes ‘Lyon style’ and say he was checking for parapent opportunities

    The X5 strategy was

    – If not seen at all … for the better
    – If seen (as he was by ONF1) … then if not traced … for the better
    – If seen AND traced … then tell some parapent story and say ‘But at 15h45 I was in Annecy’ and show some gas station ticket.

    I checked.

    Suppose X5 was at Martinet at 15h20, dropped off WBM, and turned around and speed away

    In 20-25 minutes, this X5 could be as far as Faverges, St Jorioz or Talloires

    40 minutes (Google maps time) he could be in Annecy. If he stepped on the gas, he perhaps could make it to Annecy in 30 minutes.

    So, if ever caught, X5 could say ‘But I was in Annecy at 15h50’ … A rock solid alibi!!!

  • Reply ↓
    Max

    A more simple variant is

    – WBM is P/X. Target is SAH and family

    But with the same idea.

    In this variant there has to be some connection between WBM and SAH’s

    If the X5 driver = Suitman, and WBM = P/X … we have a ‘team’. A UK team, going after SAH’s … motive unknown

    Could it be the Iqbal connection?

  • Reply ↓
    James

    @Peter and @Max

    ….but there is still a problem !

    You see, if there is no double visit (taking into account the 1508 pic etc) AND LFR is “mis-quoted” with regard time, then Al Hilli would have to have turned left at the hairpin at the bottom of the Combe D’Ire, to arrive then at the Flat Iron building….and after that, he headed up the Combe D’Ire.

    So… according to the “official version”, where is the “wrong turn” ?
    The police (and the mayor, according to TP) believe Al Hilli 1. Departed the FIB 2. took a “wrong turn”. 3. passed LFR.

    The “official version” contradicts “logic”

  • Reply ↓
    James

    Note….

    P = ex Royal Marine in UK taking pics near AL Hilli daughters residence

    (Photographer of 1515 pic at FIB = family member SAA)

  • Reply ↓
    Max

    I don’t think LFR is mis-quoted. I still go with the LFR 14h40 thing … unless EM&co also have some extra info (e.g. another photo) which explains away LFR’s 14h40

    LFR himself won’t go away. SAH did pass LFR!

    I think M’s solution is now valid.

    – SAH passes LFR at 14h40
    – SAH does a sharp left turn at the sign, down the route du Moulin
    – SAH arrives in Doussard, takes pictures and meets P
    – 15h08 picture is taken, and SAH goes up route du Moulin once again
    – 15h15 FIB
    – And directly to Martinet

    It is fairly obvious that P and ‘SAH going up to Martinet’ seem connected
    As if P said ‘I will meet you there’

    For this to work better, it would help if SAH and P had some appointment at 15h in Doussard (Post office). Suitman could come in handy … but the ‘Walibi’ thing is a big trouble.

    (strangely enough the Walibi parc in question was already closed in september. Walibi wasn’t even possible!)

  • Reply ↓
    michael norton

    Max, why wouldn’t the “Photographer” come forward?

    Only two reasons I can think of:
    they are already deceased ( but likely in on it)
    or they were in on it and alive but purposely invisible.

  • Reply ↓
    michael norton

    Max,
    if William Brett Martin was the photographer, his dabs would be on the camera,
    the FRENCH authorities have no doubt dusted the camera?

  • Reply ↓
    Good In Parts

    Peter

    The phrase “à dix minutes près” to me indicates that he can pin down the timing to ‘within ten minutes’.

    There were two builders working there, so one would hope that police interviews would have been able to determine whether his confidence about the timing was misplaced.

  • Reply ↓
    michael norton

    It is well known Gypsies are into people smuggling.

    Recently the FRENCH have been clearing ROMA camps in FRANCE and this week in PARIS.

    A few days ago a Gypsy shot a policeman and several other people in ROYE,
    Northern FRANCE
    http://www.france24.com/en/20150825-shooting-france-roye-dead-somme

    Quote Daily Mail
    “A mob of sixty Roma gipsies were blocking a French motorway this morning by setting fire to piles of tyres and chainsawing branches of trees to keep the blaze going.”

    http://www.france24.com/en/20150827-police-dismantle-france-oldest-slum-paris-outskirts-roma-courneuve-samaritain

    It is almost as if the FRENCH Authorities have had enough
    and are finally deciding to forget political correctness and deal with it,
    I expect Charlie Hebdo
    has strengthened their resolve.

    I expect the dead migrants in Austria will be found to be down to Gypsie people smugglers.

    Remember that one week after the E-FIT-SKETCH was released
    Nicole Communal-Tournier was shot dead in her home in Lathuile.

    The five persons in custody ( now for 16 months)
    for shooting dead Nicole Communal-Tournier are said to be Gypsies!!!

  • Reply ↓
    michael norton

    So, what I am suggesting is:

    the reason for the strange visit of the “mother” from SWEDEN to ENGLAND, then FRANCE,
    could be for people smuggling.
    The al-Hilli family were contacting ROMA people smugglers, possibly to pay money to the ROMA to get people out of IRAQ.

    Remember the phone calls to ROMANIA

  • Reply ↓
    michael norton

    Quote The Guardian
    “Approximately 400,000 Roma people live in France”

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/25/killed-police-wounded-french-gypsy-camp-shootout

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3215111/British-tourists-returning-Calais-blocked-French-motorway-fires-started-chainsaw-wielding-Roma-Gypsies.html

    Trenches have been dug in a town in northern France to stop Roma gipsies setting up camp.

    Wavrin, between Lille and Lens, has become the first to dig the taxpayer-funded ditches following an influx of caravans.

    “It was our only option,
    a town hall source said.
    A lot of time has been spent digging the trenches, and they are enough to stop municipal fields, including football pitches, from becoming unauthorised camping sites.”

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3202244/French-town-adopts-WW1-tactics-digging-TRENCHES-stop-Roma-gipsies-setting-caravan-camps-playing-fields.html

  • Reply ↓
    michael norton

    So,
    it is 2012, the al-Hilli /al-Allaf family,
    want/need to get people out of IRAQ.
    The “mother” of Iqbal comes to ENGLAND, deposits her unbalanced son in a private sanitorium, then joins the family al-Hilli for an unplanned ( short plan) trip to
    Savoie/Haute-Savoie/SWITZERLAND. THEY make attempts to withdraw sums from banks in SWITZERLAND, possibly unsuccessfully.
    The dark skinned man, seen in arguement with Saad at a campsite, might be a people smuggling intermediary,they move campsite because of intimedation but only a short distance because they need to sort out this business.
    Maybe the dark skinned man is an intermediary for an organization of people smugglers,
    that they do not feel comfortable with, so they attempt to change people smuggling groups.

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