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I presume the parapente business MISTER LYON had arrangements with know his true identity?
That’s another awful story poor Gareth Williams I feel so sorry for his family too somebody somewhere needs to get a grip what is being allowed to go on .
What friend asked him to hack if they know they must know who it was so lets hear it ,is this going to be another case of blatant murder that’s allowed to be covered up ,I hope not .
Let’s run through this Honourable “title” of the mysterious unnamed biker,
in investigating a massacre who would be considered honourable?
Who would be considered above suspicion.
a priest?
a politician?
a police officer?
a doctor?
a fireman?
a SPOOK?
The Gareth Williams case is simple….
…he decided to have some fun. He placed his favourite holdall in the bath, climbed in it, used a special tool to zip the bag closed, ate that tool, realised then he needed it, died.
He liked dressing as a woman…. so therefore he liked climbing into holdalls and zipping himself inside them. Totally logical.
I mean…. it was his first time zipping himself inside one and he wondered what fun he might have (especially as he had designed a special tool he could eat).
Forget about that…. Saddam had Weapons that could cause massive destruction.
Invisible ones that couldn’t be found if anyone looked for them.
Invisible weapons that could cause mass destruction AND hide AND that can be made from some bits of steel, a coke tin and a bit of TNT.
Tony Bush. Our hero !
An oldie. But it makes sense in the WBM = X, hides in X5 scenario
https://deadzone61.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/twitter-com_2014-10-19_13-11-54.png
Now, I guessimate that said ONF (Visa) is ONF1 … and he crosses SM, but no WBM, no SAH
How is this possible??
Well SM simply was earlier!
And WBM was not there!!!!
James
Re your two possibilities and their “sub plots”.
1. The biker “eventually” exited the Combe D’Ire.
He passes Martin.
A ‘tardy exit’, well he has form for not obeying road regulations. The side track leading to Mont Benoit would be a good candidate for a bit of exploration and could (just) fit with the WBM sighting.
2. The biker “earlier” exited the Combe D’Ire (via whichever route).
Martin’s biker most certainly isn’t from Lyon.
This ‘prompt exit’ is implicitly supported by EM stating, and I paraphrase here, ‘he was asked to leave, and he did so’.
I like this option myself. The MC description given by WBM apparently differed from the ONF version. My preferred, parsimonious, explanation is that WBM ‘crossed’ the GG as he ‘crossed’ from one side of the combe to the other, as I have tediously wibbled on about in previous posts.
This solves the MC/ONF2 out-of-order sighting issue but LMC ‘should’ have been seen or left a trace elsewhere. I guess that the gendarmes have this part sewn up via cell tower logons and inter-cell handover timings for LMC’s phone.
Alternately, as you note, there could have been a second MC in the area.
Max
From the tweet stream “wbm said he saw a 4×4 It was a Visa Citroen (fourgon) A green one The drivers are identified.”
The drivers are identified.
Peter
Thanks for your post. I am currently digesting the implications.
Max I hope you are listening what can we do with Lyon man as target ,he was there what saved him how does the time work for and against him as target .
Max
You posted a prediction
“I predict that P (unknown photographer) took the picture of the SAH’s at a time which is exactly compatible with the X5/X trip to Martinet.”
Kudos.
GIP
The ONF2 perspective is pretty straight forward.
ONF2 sees, stops, speaks to …and re-directs a motorcyclist.
ONF2 passes through the Martinet.
ONF2 sees SM climbing on the lower reaches of the Combe D’Ire.
ONF2 leaves before seeing either WBM or SAH enter the Combe D’Ire.
Hey presto. They see no one except SM.
SM is climbing the hill well ahead of WBM.
SM then stops to take the phone call (allowing WBM to “close the gap”)
SM takes off again.
The problem is, the phone call. How long was it ?
If WBM hits the climb at 1515, he has to be AHEAD of SAH (enter the 1515 photo at the Flat Iron building) and AFTER the ONF2 unit fully departed.
That’s pretty straight forward.
SM hits the climb whilst the ONF2 unit is still on the route…albeit in the final stage of their descent. So, before 1515.
Both WBM (grinding away with no stop) and SM (a hill climber…but he has an enforced stop) have to climb the hill in “pretty much the same time”. Say around 30 minutes ?
In Doussard… WBM must have only got the “briefest of brief” looks at SM.
SM would have been at least 5 minutes ahead of WBM at that early stage ?
It would make more sense, if Martin had never seen Mollier earlier on.
James he saw SM in Chevaline near the church I think .
(in my latest scenario) There must be a connection between WBM and SM. My best guess is that CS knows. She after all was instrumental in SM going to Martinet. CS being instrumental, means that there probably is a link between WBM and CS. If there is, I have to assume it is relational/sexual.
(just mumbling … dont pay attention:)
Suppose it is about Mrs. Martin. SM had a thing with her. And WBM found out. He was angry just like CS. So both team up. The kill is one thing. The alibi another. If the police would find out about the Mrs Martin – SM connection they would go straight to WBM … Soooo, WBM needs a damn good rock solid Columbo-esque alibi.
His (prepped) alibi was that he never could be at Martinet to be X, because he was down in Doussard when it happened.
Things didn’t go as planned, but the above was the original plan of attack.
WBM had no signal … remember
Well, if above is true, he for sure didn’t want to have signal in phase 1. I’m surprised he had a phone with him (in this scenario)
Just a detail. But did anyone actually see the phone of WBM. Like, did WBM show his phone to PB and said in broken french ‘I don’t get a signal, you have to phone 112’
In short … did PB see if WBM had a phone?
WBM says he tried to phone. But is there any evidence he actually had a phone with him??
(of course he simply could have taken out the battery)
What time would LYON man have been in Doussard collecting his bike to reach the CDI when he did ?
MN where would he park to get a good view of the paragliders from Forclaz ?
from Michael Norton link
22 Aug, 2015 – 7:01 pm
The gendarmes were finally reassembled in true biker identifying 4,000 mobile numbers that had triggered one of mobile phone masts located near the crime scene. CCTV images have intersected these investigations.
When questioned by the investigating judges in February, the man explained that he went on the banks of Lake Annecy for paragliding. In fine weather, several hundred paragliders jump from the Forclaz pass, not far from the crime scene.
Having parked his motorcycle in Doussard, near Chevaline, the man was about to return home by road of Combe d’Ire when it was turned back by the NFB agents, this road is closed to vehicles.
http://www.ladepeche.fr/article/2015/03/06/2061576-chevaline-motard-identifie-aurait-lien-tuerie.html
@Pink
How far can he see from the church ?
WBM must have never at any time been “right next to” SM.
IF the “ONF2/Monsieur Lyon” event happened at 1500 (approx).
And ONF2 departed the Combe D’Ire prior to WBM entering it (before 1515).
Then the Monsieur Lyon would have had to remain “in or around” the Martinet for a good 30 minutes to 40 minutes….?
If Monsieur Lyon did not stay in the area for that length of time and had left the area completely… then the motorcyclist that WBM saw would be someone else. Another motorcyclist.
Does it mean he actually did some jumps and would have been at the place they leave from, the field in Doussard, I remember now some talk about a minibus taking people to the jumpsite I didn’t pay enough attention at the time I had assumed he was doing his gliding on the CDI which I was slightly baffled by I have misunderstood this bit totally that’s why I was wondering how he carried the gear,I had never noticed he was actually in Doussard.
If he was at the field what rough time would it take to reach the CDI?
If “a motorcyclist” was involved in the shootings (1540) and had decided to escape down the CDI…
…they would have indeed passed WBM (before 1545, the time at which WBM arrived at the Martin).
And yet they were never seen by PB (1548 emergency call).
So you “push” the whole time forward a little, Which makes the “1500 approx coming together” of Mr Lyon and ONF2 more likely. And the 1510 approx ONF2 exit of the CDI.
Did Mt Lyon really spend 30/40 minutes on the CDI after being collared by the ONF unit ?
Did it take Mollier 30 minutes to make the climb (including taking the phone call from his ex wife) ?
Pink
You park up at the landing zone (or the “crash site”!). And you are taken to the take off point in a minibus.
Kit and other gear (spare underpants etc), I imagine, can be hired from the paragliding company.
I am beginning to wonder…
…is it actually possible for PB to “not see” the “slow moving motorcyclist” (whomever that was) ?
Talk about “did the X5 exist”. Did this motorcyclist ???
Pink
From the LZ to the old sawmill at the bottom (where the roadblock was set up) is 2.77 Km or 1.72 miles as the crow flies.
So, rounding up to 2 miles @30mph equals approx 4 minutes.
James I think it shows you on the Panorama doc perhaps someone can confirm .
I have wondered in the past how they came to be in sight of each other ,it was pointless for me to tackle timings no idea about bikes , plenty of people were doing it on here and DI perhaps you could look up the conclusions .
They know what time they both left home they used bike sites that give timings to work out speed and distance so I assume they could work out where SM would have caught BM .
I have not payed a lot of attention to it in the back of my mind I think there is some missing time for BM journey so I guess he didn’t go directly to CDI that would confuse timings a bit .
So where did the X5 come from?
My guess would be CERN. It has to be the largest community of uksian expats nearby. SAH had at least one buddy there that he communicated with. He ‘passed through’ Geneva on the Monday, possibly going to meet up with someone he knew there. He also apparently wanted a job there.
I doubt the buddy did it. But maybe someone there found out, via seeing them drinking coffee nearby, that SAH was in town.
Ask a few questions of the buddy then go find SAH at the campsite late afternoon as ‘Suitman’ have a bitter argument, come back on Wednesday…
Pink
I can see where SM would have left the cycle path.
And I can see the direct route he would have taken to the CDI.
In WBM’s interviews he always maintains that SM was ahead of him.
At no point did SM overtake him.
But WBM was “close enough” for him to see that SM was on a racing cycle.
SM then must have put distance (more distance) between himself and WBM.
So much so, when SM enters the CDI, ONF2 only saw SM (and no one else).
I can live with that.
WBM enters the climb at around 1515
Pretty much as SAH is having his photo taken at the nearby FIB (!).
And it takes WBM about 30 minutes to make the climb.
Mollier, who enters the climb pre 1515, finishes it at around 1540.
It takes him the “same time” as WBM ? 30 minutes ? Huh ?
How long was his stop when he answered the phone call from his ex wife ???
10 minutes ???
Thanks GIP can we, by we I mean you or Max (I am too stupid)work out where the Lyon man was from Doussard parked up until his encounter with ONF ,what times would he have passed any critical points .
He seems to be everywhere the targets were he got a get out of jail free card like BM my explanation is he was the target not the perp he knew this and that’s why he didn’t come forward .
I had not previously considered this until I read some back history if he can be shown to be a target by the timings then we can work out why it failed and the others got killed .
I also could be barking up the wrong tree I am sure Peter will let me know if I am .
@Peter in this scenario could the choice of location could be symbolic ?
The place from where the parapente takes place would seem to be quite a climb, from Doussard go along the D1508 towards Faverges, where the right turn towards GIEZ, turn left, looks like the journey to the “airfield” at 1272 metres would take you 30 minutes in a minibus.
James watch the first 4 minutes to see BM mention sighting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xX_q5fpWSBg
BM left home 14:30 approx.
“Brett Martin, a former RAF pilot who has a holiday home in the area, set off for a cycle ride in the early afternoon of 5 September 2012.
“I left the house at about 14:30 [with] no fixed route in my mind,” he said.
……..
15:45 saw MB
“It was sunny… [and] quite a peaceful, pleasant afternoon.”
Coming up the hill at about 15:45, Brett Martin saw the motorcyclist escaping……..
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24476627
……..
I don’t have a link I think SM also left home at 14:30