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45°48’50.20″ N 6°14’49.70″ E
spot for take off.
Leave D1508, turn left ( where turning right would take you to GIEZ)
go to MONTMIN, LA COTE, ascend to COL DE FORCLAZ, then jump off the mountain.
Should be a good view.
Personally I think LYONMAN is a homosexual.
I think his many trips up and down the COMBE of IRE are to do with cottaging and nothing to do with parapente.
I do no believe he went parapenting that day, at all.
I think he was cruising for rough men.
I also think LYONMAN is the killer.
Enormous new factory blast rocks Chinese industrial region
RT
Pink
Yep. It all fits.
Mollier puts distance between him and Martin as they leave Chevaline.
Odd that Panorama doesn’t really pick up on ONF2 though.
They seem to “crunch” time together to make it fit.
ONF1 was “some time” ahead of Mollier/Martin/Al hilli entering the CDI.
I suspect ONF2 departed as Mollier was entering (or thereabouts).
Fits with what ONF2 is (believed) to have said.
Which means Mr Lyon was spoken to “earlier” than what is “presented”.
Not by much, but certainly not “moments before” the murders.
Maybe Mr Lyon was the biker seen by ONF1 and spoken to by ONF2.
…but I doubt he was WBM’s biker.
A short-cut intimates “time saving”, so why wait around ?
It is reported that ONF2 “lost sight” of the biker (Mr Lyon).
But we don’t know if the biker was behind of ahead of the ONF unit.
Mr Lyon is pretty crucial. And I guess the police will know a lot more now, having spoken to him. They will know his route. And when he left (or didn’t leave) the CDI.
My own gut feeling is, the police have cleared him for a reason. That reason maybe because they feel “pretty sure” there was a second motorcyclist.
Or because they feel there wasn’t a second motorcyclist !
How do you prove something doesn’t exist …that was never there ???
My scenario possibly can make another prediction.
– WBM stated that SM overtook him in Chevaline
– WBM stated that SAH overtook him on Combe d’Ire
If WBM = X, he must be very careful not to be caught lying.
If WBM was in the X5, how could he know SM was in Chevaline?
A: Because the X5 overtook SM in Chevaline
This leads to the following prediction
The relative timings as given by ONF1 (assuming ONF=Visa Citroen) will line up. In other words, I can roughly predict where ONF1 must have bumped into SM!
– – –
Estimated speeds :
– X5 = 60 km/h (speeding)
– SM = 20 km/h
– ONF1 = 40 km/h
– X5 (with WBM) takes over SM in Chevaline
– This is 4 kms from Martinet
– ONF1 sees X5 500m from Martinet
– X5 will cover the 3,5 kms to ONF1 in 3 minutes
– In 3 minutes SM bikes 1 km … he is now at the sign
– From this point on SM drives up with 20 km/h and ONF1 drives down with 40 km/h
ONF1 will meet/see SM roughly 1 km up the Combe d’Ire (beyond the sign)
This is my prediction
Now WBM had another problem. Although he knew which road SM had taken (Chevaline) he didn’t know which road SAH had taken. But he had to guess right.
WBM saying SAH overtook him on Combe d’Ire was the safest (only) bet. A wise choice.
Of course SAH couldn’t argue with that, because SAH is dead.
More problematic is that
ONF1 didn’t see WBM (theoretically possible)
ONF2 didn’t see WBM (impossible I think)
LMC didn’t see WBM (impossible again I think)
We have 3 living witnesses on Combe d’Ire … and no one saw WBM ?? (yet ONF1 saw this mysterious X5 and WBM was at Martinet)
Le motard est finalement retrouvé grâce au bornage de 4 000 téléphones portables analysés et entendu par les gendarmes de la section de recherches de Chambéry au mois de février 2015, mais les juges d’instruction d’Annecy estiment qu’il n’est pas impliqué. Selon cette même source, « son profil personnel et professionnel l’exclut de la liste des suspects à 95 % . L’homme, un chef d’entreprise, justifie sa présence dans cette forêt par sa pratique du parapente.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuerie_de_Chevaline#La_piste_crapuleuse
So FRENCH Wiki believes that the Mysterious unnamed motorcyclist has told the investigaters that he justifies his presence in the forest for the practice of parapente.
This to me seems ludicrous.
You ca not take off nor can you land and neither can you observe.
Therefore his excuse is implausible?
So, if the mysterious motorcyclist ( from LYON)
was not in the forest for parapente
what would be his true purpose?
@ Pink, 31 Aug, 2015 – 7:11 pm
It is conceivable that someone might want the Lyon motorcyclist dead. After all, he is a manager in a scandal-ridden meat processing plant that has acrimoniously changed owners twice in recent years, where staff have been laid off, the remaining workers’ wages were cut and so forth. It is quite possible that some disgruntled ex-employee or trade union firebrand might want to do him harm. Doing so in a place called Chevaline would be particularly apt, because the company originally ran into difficulties due to having used undeclared horse meat in ready-to-eat lasagna.
Yet, if he was the target but somehow managed to elude the killer, why would the killer spontaneously decide to whack a family of holidaymakers plus a stray cyclist instead? Out of sheer boredom?
Peter because of the nature of the subject and not wanting to trip over to many romanian slaughter house pictures I have not followed the story but I can see its a bit of tangled web have you any idea where the buck really stopped in all that ?
@ Pink, 1 Sep, 2015 – 9:46 am
I have no idea who was ultimately at fault there. However, that horse-meat thing was history by September 2012. Any grudge that somebody might have had against LMC would more likely have been motivated by the – failed – efforts of the new owners, a Basque company, to turn the business around.
I’m completely on another plane. Throwing in this known piece of info
« Cet homme, paniqué, était en train de redescendre la route, se souvient Philippe, encore ému. Il m’a expliqué difficilement dans un mauvais français qu’il y avait eu un drame un peu plus haut. Il cherchait à prévenir les secours. Je n’ai pas compris s’il n’avait pas de téléphone portable ou s’il ne parvenait pas à capter le réseau à cet endroit. » Ce Savoyard, randonneur chevronné, suit alors le cycliste britannique sur quelques mètres pour arriver sur le parking, théâtre du quadruple assassinat. »
http://www.leparisien.fr/faits-divers/les-confidences-d-un-temoin-du-drame-de-chevaline-11-09-2012-2159640.php
So … I’m still wondering. Did WBM have a mobile phone? Did anybody see this phone? It seems like PB did not see the phone. Which is a bit weird. You’d think WBM could have tried to phone once he did bump into PB. But iirc it was PB who phoned. So why not WBM? (trying again, to see if he had signal)
I suspect WBM didn’t have a phone. And that WBM = X
@ Max, 1 Sep, 2015 – 1:45 pm
We should assume that WBM told the gendarmerie the same story that he told to the media: that he tried to make an emergency call, but did not succeed in connecting to the network at the Martinet. The gendarmerie can verify or falsify that claim quite easily, because, if true, his phone must have logged out of the cellular network at some point before the murders and logged back in shortly afterwards.
This argument would not work if it were possible to call 112 in France without a SIM card, but that is impossible
http://ec.europa.eu/digital-agenda/en/112-france
@ Peter
I agree that the investigators could verify WBM’s claim. So … did they?
In the heat of the moment, in the first hours after the killing. Did the investigators ask WBM ‘Mr, show your phone please?’
Maybe. Maybe not.
But … if they went further they could have checked the logging out/in of WBM’s mobile. Did they check this?
One things seems sure. It doesn’t look like WBM waved his phone in front of PB. I’m currently asking JMD if he can enlighten me on this point. The question ‘Does PB remember WBM having a mobile phone?’
@ Max
Mobile phone data is such a crucial investigative tool that the gendarmes would have asked WBM for his phone number very early on, I am convinced. Most importantly, they would have wanted to know his mobile number in order to be able to double-check the timings in his witness statement.
Secondly, if you have another look at the article that you cited, you will find the sentence: Quelques secondes plus tard, il redescend de quelques mètres pour contacter les pompiers said of PD, not WBM. Why would PD have to go downhill to make the call, unless there really was a problem with network reception at the Martinet?
@Peter from a brief foray the obvious stand out things to explore
would be rugby connections (SM’s father )
I have been reading a few comments and the name southwest arcadia seems to be in the mix of problems, I see a lot of poultry production and SAH’s dad was supposed to have a poultry farm I am not in any way able to judge whats relevant if you get a chance could you have a little look and see if anything stands out .
http://article.wn.com/view/2013/09/11/Viande_de_cheval_huit_cadres_de_lexentreprise_Spanghero_inte/
I wont put a link because it will hold up post put this is what I saw
“Affaire Spanghero : Barthélémy Aguerre démissionne d’Arcadie Sud-Ouest Affaire Spanghero : Barthélémy Aguerre démissionne d’Arcadie Sud-Ouest ‘> Barthélémy Aguerre, PDG de la société Spanghero, a démissionné de la présidence d’Arcadie…”
If you look comments Arcadia gets a mention again
http://rue89.nouvelobs.com/2013/02/15/les-vrais-spanghero-nont-rien-voir-avec-lennemi-des-lasagnes-239655
Well if the Combe of Ire track is no through road for vehicles,
if you can not take off,
if you can not land,
if you can not observe.
It would indicate to me that MISTERLYON is not telling the truth.
He was neither on a route going home
nor was he there for parapente.
Hence he was there for a different reason
but one he wishes to keep to himself,
maybe that is why in two years he did not come forward?
Peter
Some initial thoughts on Tumba.
I was leaning towards the break-in being a means to the end of ‘hiding’ something however your insight into this sector points in a different direction.
You wrote “Unless somebody presented her official death certificate at the bank, the bank would not be entitled to freeze or close her account.”
This surprised me somewhat as SAH’s bank account was locked down immediately and Nigerian John arrested when he attempted a fraudulant transaction. There was no time for a death certificate to be issued. I suppose this is one of the differences between UK retail banking and Swiss personal banking.
Having said that, I understood that the Swiss bank ‘froze’ the disputed account opened by Khadim when the issue was reported to them. Presumably they would have asked for his death certificate or a certified copy.
Overall, what you have described would represent quite a compelling motive for murder, and also for the urgency of it.
The spyware revealing the trip, its purpose and the compelling need to prevent the visit to the bank (and thus stop monies being transferred into the accounts of the children), plus the elimination of the account ‘controller’ and the rest of the family leaving a window of opportunity to clean out the account.
I am more optimistic that someone will be able to verify or falsify it. The German security services seem to have suborned the Swiss banking system simply by bribing the bank staff.
I am however less optimistic that we shall ever hear the outcome.
Max asks of Peter ….
“the investigators could verify WBM’s claim. So … did they?”
Nope. They haven’t said anything. It may be a game plan.
Here’s why.
It has never been claimed that SM overtook WBM. Merely that “he saw him”.
We don’t know when, or where.
ONF2 says “they saw no bodies” (but they saw Mr Lyon and Mollier).
The wuestions to Eric are simple (now).
Was MC(WBM) the same as MC(ONF2) ?
If yes…then what did he see, what was he doing.
If no…. then who was it, why no man-hunt/description ?
QUOTE…..
Thsi is “Max”
My scenario possibly can make another prediction.
– WBM stated that SM overtook him in Chevaline
– WBM stated that SAH overtook him on Combe d’Ire
So… in which interview did he ACTUALLY say that ??????????????
(Note. Interview = him speaking. Non interview = lazy reporters quotes)
The firm that came out as correctly labeling its meat and not guilty of any of the problems was the Romanian one.
Don’t look to closely if you like meat it will turn you vegetarian some of what been going on is shocking it might not seem important having a bit of horse in your mince ,but horses are given drugs that would not be in the human food chain and that meat is not for human consumption plus if they cut corners with infected animals think BSE then its a catastrophe.
Its not only France involved its far more widespread and whats obvious is that there’s a lot of buck passing can’t lay your hand on a culprit because its hidden in a chain .
Possibly the committed could I have lost the will .
Michael Norton
Well if the Combe of Ire track is no through road for vehicles,
if you can not take off,
if you can not land,
if you can not observe.
It would indicate to me that MISTERLYON is not telling the truth.
WE can take off
WE can land
WE can observe
WE always tell the truth
And it is spelled MYSTERON foolish human
M Y S T E R O N !
If, as now seems likely MISTERLYON has not told the truth to the investigators, that he was neither going home up the Combe of Ire nor was he there for his given reason of parapente,
then they need to bring him in again and this time with prejudice,
he has been avoiding the investigation for two years and subsequently has been obstructing a quadruple murder investigation by not telling the truth.
This could be an imprisonable offence.
The line that Eric Maillaud has been spinning
is that there was only ever one motorcyclist.
Therefore the pertinent question to MISTERLYON is:
what were you doing for three quarters of an hour, after you had been told to go down the combe by ONF2, till the time you descended passing William Brett Martin ascending to the scene of the slaughter?
This is the timeline on early CM when they still didn’t know where the real site of the murder was it was put together from the reports they were reading then.
I thought it might be good to compare with what you have now .
OpenSourceIntel
10 Sep, 2012 – 3:56 am
Approximated Timeline:
13:00: Family leave campsite in dark red BMW.
14.30-15:00: Witness (French builders) see dark red BMW drive up the alpine road.
15:43: ex-RAF cyclist overtaken by cyclist Sylvain Mollier; witnesses motorcycle and dark green 4×4 vehicle speed towards the scene.
15:43-15:48: Four victims shot within 30sec by two gunmen, each receiving two bullets to the head.
15:48: ex-RAF arrives at the scene.
15:48-15:58: ex-RAF: sees Sylvain Mollier lying dead; breaks drivers window, turns off engine; sees injured girl outside of car; puts girl in recovery position.
15:??: Witness swerves to avoid white Peugeot racing away from the scene.
15:58: ex-RAF called emergency services / Police first notified.
16:20: Police arrive at the scene.
23:00: Police notified of second girl.
23:59: Police open doors to find second girl hidden and alive.
Some sources differ on the time that ex-RAF calls emergency services, some say 15:48, others say 15:58/16:00. Not really too much problem here though as timeline calculated in reference to that event.
James
Pink gave you a link a few posts back to “Panorama Murder in the Alps”
At 3:30 WBM refers to being passed as follows:-
“I’m pretty sure was the Al Hilli family in their vehicle”
So not absolutely definitive, but “pretty sure”.
GIP
The statement as a whole ?
1. I agree “WBM believes he was over taken by SM”.
Check
2. Max says “WBM stated that SM overtook him in Chevaline”
Here the alarms start going off !
Only in by “written reports” (and we know how “far out” they are) has that ever been stated.
WBM in his two interviews NEVER said “SM passed me”.
Oops ! (long day)
GIP….
WBM is (believes) SAH overtook him.
But Max is punting that WBM said SM overtook him (also) ???????
That was never said. Sorry.
@ Peter
But you’d still wonder why WBM himself didn’t just descend a few meters to get signal
And … suppose WBM had not bumped into PB, then what ?
Do we have to assume WBM would race all the way down to get help and/or try to phone. Racing down (30km/h) for 4 kms takes 8 minutes. That would mean that if it hadn’t been for PB, WBM wouldn’t have raised the alarm for another 8 minutes ???
You could argue that he might had stopped for signal. But the reality is that he did NOT. He did NOT go down ‘a few meters’. He didn’t even phone himself when he bumped into PB. PB did have signal.
As far as I can see, WBM did NOTHING useful with his phone
I remember WBM being a bit theatrical when he told Symonds
So, having done a quick look around the there was no immediate need to run away, I thought “right, pull out my mobile phone, try and call the rescue services” and of all the moments in the world to have no signal on your mobile phone, that was it!
– – –
Sure I’m looking for things, but then again, why not 🙂
And then again, why does he say try and call the rescue services ??? Why not simply say ‘call the rescue services’ and find out you have no signal. Why the TRY word
Try implies knowing that you have problems. But he couldn’t know he would have no signal, because otherwise he would have phrazed it differently. He would have said something like ‘I have been to Martinet before, and the reception is poor, bla, bla, bla’
But he doesn’t say it like this. He is saying it in a way which I do not trust. And I remember from the early days that I had the same feeling back then. We discussed WBM/BBC interview at length in the early MZT days