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To endeavour to make myself crystal clear….
1. Initially, at Chevaline, Martin appears to be “near enough” to Mollier to “recognise him” later.
2. Considerable distance seems to have been created between Martin and Mollier thereafter (ONF2 only sighted Mollier on the climb)
3. Mollier paused awhile on the Combe D’Ire to take a phone call.
4. Martin is the only person to have “been in contact” with all the victims (bar two).
5. The motorcyclist that was depating the area at (approx) 1540 (1535/1545) has not been identified (confirmed by police) as being the same person that was sighted and spoken to by the ONF unit (ONF2).
Make of that ….. !
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-19587272 7 minutes into the video. Make up your own mind
At least William Brett Martin is not a coward, unlike the liar from LYON
@ James
Ok, I agree, WBM doesn’t mention overtaking. At least not in the BBC interview
MARTIN: Well, as I sort of approached the scene, the first thing I saw was a bike on its side and I’d seen the cyclist ahead of me much earlier so I thought he was just having a rest.
However I’m not sure if it is any better. WBM saw SM ahead of him (but SM also did go faster than WBM, at least that is what we ALL assume) … so what does this actually mean ? It only works if SM did not overtake WBM, but came from another road. Is that what WBM is telling ?? Really ??
@ MN
To me WBM is just a number, like LMC. For me it has nothing to do with cowardy. That is dangerously subjective 🙂
I have said that I think the most obvious route that Sylvain Mollier would have taken would be along the cycle route from Ugine, turn left along Route du Couardet, Route des Cotes,
Route de Arnand, Route de Moulin, Flat Iron Building,
Route Forestiere Domaniale de la Combe d’Ire.
However we are told that W.B.M. lives in Lathuile, so it would be most unlikely their paths would meet untill they reach the junction of Route Forestiere Domaniale de la Combe d’Ire with
Chemin Rural dit de la
Chemin Rural dit de la Grande Combe.
So not untill these two roads meet, should the bike riders been able to see each other.
Max
You’ve missed it.
WBM is behind SM (but he can see that he’s on a race bike).
Then ONF2 only sees SM on the climb (likely near the bottom as they leave).
How far behind is WBM now ?
Then SM takes a phone call. Let’s say he stops to take it.
WBM never catches up ? How far was he away then ?
And finally SM is shot dead.
And WBM arrives later on.
Think about it…
“That is dangerously subjective”
Agree
@ MN
I went back to BBC Panorama. They replay the scene. The point where WBM sees SM ‘ahead’ of him is here
https://deadzone61.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/www-google-nl_2015-09-01_20-25-36.png
So, this works.
That spot is 3,9 kms from Martinet
That spot is 650 meters from the junction with route du Moulin (the sign)
WBM going 10 km/h
SM going 30 km/h
This means that WBM was 2,5 minutes after SM at the sign
And it will take WBM 24 minutes to get to Martinet
Without stopping it will take SM between 8 (30 km/h) and 12 (20 km/h) minutes to get to Martinet
It also means that SM (without stopping) arrived at least 12 minutes before WBM at Martinet !?
If WBM had the impression X was still near
AND
If WBM’s MC is Lyon MC and is not X (indicating a ‘4 minute window for X’)
Then
WHAT happened in those 8 minutes when SM already had arrived at Martinet
(just one of the problems, there are more)
Max
ONF2 provides “the timing” as such.
Here’s another comparison for you this was Molliemallone’s observation on DI using the timeline I put in above .
Molliemalone
10-09-2012, 02:07 PM
“If RAF man was overtaken at 15:43 and got to the scene at 15:48, that is only 5 mins, during which time Mollier got far enough ahead of him that he didn’t hear any shots being fired? Has it been reported how far away from the scene of the killings RAF man was when he was overtaken by the cyclist and witnessed the vehicles?
I would have thought that if he was only overtaken 5 minutes before finding them all, he would only have been a short distance behind Mollier, and therefore would have been able to hear the shots (they were heard by someone else, so no silencer used). Looking at what has been reported, it seems the track was uphill, and looking at various cycling forums, it would seem that a very good uphill speed is about 16kmh (10mph) vs average at 8kmh (5mph).
If Mollier had been travelling at 16kmh, he would have covered the following distances over the 5 minutes…
after 1 minutes 267meters (just over 0.16 of a mile)
after 2 minutes 534meters
after 3 minutes 800meters
after 4 minutes 1068meters
after 5 minutes 1335 meters (just over 0.8 miles)
If RAF man was travelling at 8km/hr, he would have covered the following distances over 5 minutes…
after 1 minutes 133.5meters (just over 0.08 of a mile)
after 2 minutes 267meters
after 3 minutes 400meters
after 4 minutes 534meters
after 5 minutes 667.5meters (just over 0.4 miles)
If RAF man was only 667.5 meters away from the killing site when he was overtaken, Mollier would have arrived at the site after 2.28 minutes. After 2.28minutes, RAF man would have travelled 320meters, placing him only 330 meters (1/5 of a mile!) behind him, surely he would have heard the shots over that distance?!
If there was only one gun (as we are now being told) Mollier must have been shot first as he too would have heard the shots being fired over the 30 seconds if he was still cycling up the hill, and surely would have turned around ASAP!
Sorry it’s so long winded!!”
One thing I think I can say….
…if Mollier was the target, then he didn’t know he was.
I think he was trying to “keep his pace up”.
I think he was in a “high gear” thru the village…and knew he was going to attack that hill.
He put distance between himself and Martin. And he was in no way “lost”.
To prove he was the target, they need to find out if anyone knew he was heading there that day (and whether or not he knew he was).
Time…to get there….is kinda my “bread n’ butter” !
Hence they sat “ETA”. Because an “estimate” is all you can give.
SM has a “race” gearing.
WBM has a “MB” gearing.
Mollier is “pushing it out” along a flat level road…awaiting the climb.
Martin is “day cruising” on mountain bike wheels.
1. ONF2 proves Mollier is well ahead of Martin.
2. Citroen van man proves Martin is on the Combe D’Ire.
3. We don’t know if Mr Lyon was the biker that passed Martin on the climb.
So there are several basic questions ?
It took a while for someone to figure out that the site the BBC were showing was the wrong one and that the murder had happened lower down at the lay-by would the extra distance from the lay-by to the top equate to the distance from BM seeing SM in Chevaline to the bottom of the CDI .
Not sure what that would do to Molliemallones timings if anything just throwing it in.
Let me make a very conservative basic timeline, with 1 extra ingredient. The 15h32 LR to SM phone call
– SM speed is 20 km/h (conservative)
– SM will go from Chevaline to Martinet (4 kms) in 12 minutes
– SM is still alive and climbing at 15h32
– This means that SM was in Chevaline 15h20 or later
(not earlier because then SM would have been at Martinet taking the call there)
– WBM speed is 10 km/h
– WBM will go from Chevaline to Martinet in 24 minutes
– WBM was in Chevaline at 15h20 or later
– This means WBM arrived at Martinet 15h44 or later
Which in fact is impossible.
Something has to give
– Did WBM go faster?
– Did SM go even slower or stopped?
– Was SM already at Martinet at the time of the call?
– Did SM go beyond Martinet?
– Is WBM simply lying?
Digging further into the BBC Panorama thing
The animation shows that SAH overtakes WBM around 3 kms from Martinet (so at the beginning of Combe d’Ire, near the sign)
But 3 kms will translate into 18 minutes biking fo WBM (10 km/h)
Panorama says the SAH/WBM encounter was around 15h30. Add 18 minutes and you can see this is an impossibility!
However in my previous post I say calculate that WBM was in Chevaline (4 kms) at 15h20 or later. Add 6 minutes (= 1 km) to that and you have 15h26 (or later) for the WBM/SAH encounter.
These calculation are consistent with each other, only the end result is that WBM arrive too late at Martinet
If we tweak everything to the maxx, we get
– SAH at FIB at 15h17
– SAH in car 15h18
– SAH/WBM (1 km further up the road) 15h20
This is the lower limit. It simply can not have been earlier!
Now add 18 minutes to this at you get
– WBM arrives at Martinet at 15h38
And that sounds ok
But it will result in WBM/SM in Chevaline at 15h14 (24 minutes earlier)
And with SM speeding at 20km/h or faster you get that
– SM is at Martinet at 15h26 or earlier !!!! (well before SAH)
And you get what we discussed before
– SM went beyond Martinet to the end of the tarmac (2-3 kms beyond Martinet)
What reason has LYON m/c given for being above the car park.
What was LYON m/c doing above the car park.
Was he motorcycling uphill.
Was he motorcycling down hill.
Had he parked his motorcycle and was he sitting.
Was he having a meal.
Was he looking at a map.
Was he walking in the forest.
Was he hiding in the forest.
Was he acting in a bizarre manner.
Was he hiding a weapon in the forest.
Was he retrieving a weapon in the forest.
Was he dropping off a pillion passenger.
Was he meeting somebody.
Was he on his mobile phone.
@ Good In Parts, 1 Sep, 2015 – 4:24 pm
The German security services seem to have suborned the Swiss banking system simply by bribing the bank staff.
This is getting slightly off-topic, but the above assertion is not quite true. It is the German tax authorities, i. e., the Finance Ministry, who are or were buying all those data CD-ROMs. The trouble is that these tax people have no experience at all in clandestinely operating abroad. The very first vendor of such a data CD-ROM committed suicide because the tax people completely bungled the operation. They could not have done any worse if they had tried to set him up. (They actually wired his fee to his personal bank account, in the name of the German Ministry of Finances, Department of Tax Investigations, in one lump sum, with “bank client data” given as the transaction reference.) Ever since that fiasco, those tax guys have had BND operatives giving them a helping hand with the clandestine side of things.
However, those vendors of bank client data in bulk are all walk-ins who approach the German side off their own bat. The German authorities can choose whether or not to buy, but they have no control over whose data (and from which bank) they are obtaining. Purposely obtaining data on a specific person or group of persons from a specific bank is a wholly different game. The latter is a cottage industry traditionally dominated by a handful of shady individuals who have each devoted many years to identifying and cultivating corrupt IT staff within all the Swiss banks. They all know one another, hence, even if they themselves do not have an “in” at Bank X, they know someone who does. Consequently, they can get absolutely anything on any bank client – at a price. Even the BND buys from these people, because it would be impossible to duplicate this network. Their preferred supplier actually is a British expat 😉
(scribble)
With WBM saying that his encounter with SM was in Chevaline (previous) post
My WBM=X=P in X5 scenario only works if he took the picture near were he was (possibly) seen. As WBM puts himself in Chevaline, the picture can’t have been in Doussard.
So, this scenario, has to predict the 15h08 P picture (flowery wall) was near the location where WBM says he saw SM. So in Chevaline
One thing I noticed in the LFR piece was LFR saying they looked just like a family walking I wonder if he meant “going to walk ”
or if he saw them walking .
I did quite a bit of looking for flowers in chevaline on streetview, nothing stood out some flower tubs near where the airline is on the wall that I mentioned before that’s what made me wonder if he was looking for air for the tyre ,there was a garage listed for chevaline I believe it was an out of date listing and the garage had gone but SAH wouldn’t know that until he checked it out .
There is also a geocache in chevaline if he happened to be doing that .
Em and co did a good job tracking down LMC it shows they are on the case its a shame they won’t give us a bit more info instead of all this guessing they probably know exactly what SAH was doing and when ,need the journalists to start digging find out where they are at in the investigation here UK as well as France.
Max
ONF2 stops Mr Lyon at around the O’clock (1500).
Then ONF2 departs and heads down the CDI.
As they leave the CDI, they see SM cycling up it.
This all happens BEFORE WBM enters the CDI.
WBM enters the CDI at around 1515
He cycles up
SAH is the last to enter.
He drives up.
They overtake WBM and near the top of the CDI, they overtake SM.
This means they are “the first” to enter the Martinet.
Key to all this, is the phone call to SM from his ex-wife.
He stops (I assume).
That call makes his journey time up the CDI longer than expected.
(Caveat. We don’t know when the call happened or how long it was).
If the “stop of Mr Lyon” took place at 1500 (and here we rely on the fact that ONF2 saw nobody BUT Mollier), then we have to assume one of two things.
1. Mr Lyon passed Martin on his way down the CDI.
If they crossed paths “5 minutes” before Martin arrives at the car park, then we don’t know what Mr Lyon was doing for (approx) 40 minutes.
2. Mr Lyon does not pass Martin on his way down (or other route taken).
If they never crossed paths then a) When (and by what route) did Mr Lyon leave. b) Who was the motorcyclist that passed Martin OR what other explanation is there that can explain that event ?
Pink
Funny you should mention “the investigation here (in the) UK as well as France” because the press does not seem to.
And yes, we certainly do “need the journalists to start digging find out where they are at” but I have my doubts that will happen.
Which is truely strange, given that as a ‘joint enquete’, the police forces concerned are officially co-equal and the hapless Eric insists that the answer lies in the UK.
I need to refresh my memory and re-read Parry, but I cannot presently recall him getting any co-operation from the UK forces concerned. I am not sure he even bothered asking.
Very odd indeed.
@ James
IIRC:
It had been said in the early days after the massacre that WBM had a break/halt on his way up the Combe to take some pictures….
Can’t remember if this had been his very own words- or just press reports
I’m pretty sure I’d linked it – either here or on MZT
Sorry – for the moment – I can’t refind my post and link…
Anybody remembers???
Shelock
A number of things that I distinctly remember from the early days seem to be gone or un-indexed nowadays as well.
OTTOMH here are two:-
1) Quotes by the Shutz family (Thierry I think) describing the cycling route that SM was supposed to have taken that day i.e. the route that was recommended to him.
2) A report stating that it was the campsite owners daughter, working on reception, who had suggested Chevaline as an area for walking. This report included quotes attributed to her. I seem to remember that Martinet was specifically named as well.
Anybody got a link to these please?
Shelock
I don’t recall WBM stopping on the Combe D’Ire to take photos.
He never mentioned it in either of his (face 2 face) interviews.
The point being, if Mollier could ride faster than Martin (training, experience and equipment), he would be able to climb the hill faster.
If Martin did it (in about) half an hour (1515 – 1545), Mollier should have been able to do it in (say) 20 minutes. But it appears he didn’t. It seems he took half an hour also (maybe the phone call ?).
Whatever “delayed” Mollier is one thing….but the fact he was the only person seen by ONF2 means he must have been “way ahead” of Martin.
And as ONF2 spoke to Mr Lyon earlier at the hairpins…and then was later (much later) seen by Martin, means A) Mr Lyon was on the CDI, after being turned back by the rangers, for a good half an hour to 40 minutes OR B) there was another motorcyclist… OR C) it was made up !
Martin (I assume) was seen on the CDI by the Citroen van man.
Mr Lyon has been ruled out as a suspect by Eric, for whatever reason.
So that leaves…. there were two bikers on the CDI that afternoon.
But… Eric has never mentioned this ! Maybe there wasn’t afterall ???
The Citroen van man seeing BM needs to be backed up with something James I have never seen that what information on the Citroen have you seen ?
I have seen the photographs mentioned but dismissed it as part of the myth .
The receptionist tale has slightly more legs although it did get chucked in later it was not part of the original tale .
I have also wondered about the well dressed man the mail reported:
“Tourists at the campsite where Saad Al-Hilli and his family were staying say they saw a suspicious eastern European man hanging around days before the family were shot dead.
A Dutch couple staying at the the three-star Village Camping Europa site in the village of St Jorioz said they noticed the smartly dressed man there at the same time as the Al-Hillis.
They added that they did not see anyone visit the family, but noticed the unusual man because he was dressed in a smart jacket while others at the site were wearing typical tourist clothes.”
Then later we got this :
However staff at Viking Camping Europa have dismissed the Dutch couple’s account:
She dismissed suggestions that Mr al-Hilli behaved oddly during his stay, adding: “There was nothing strange. All families leave the campsite at all sorts of times to run errands, go to the shop, organise activities, that sort of thing.”
And she said comments about a mysterious man described as appearing “to come from the Balkans” were “ridiculous”.
She said: “That was an Italian man who was here. He left and got on his plane as was planned.”
Its one of those little things I would like to see proof of were they talking about the same man was he a genuine camper etc?