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http://www.france24.com/en/20150902-french-farmers-take-park-boss-hostage-over-wolf-attacks-shepherds
Shepherds hold park bosses hostage in South East FRANCE
Anarchy is everywhere in FRANCE
If we assume that the 15:08 photo was the one taken on their behalf by a mystery photographer, we could still work the X5 into the mix. Owing to the timings, this first photo must have been taken at or very near the parking lot (where the X5, too, may have been parked).
Let us assume that the photographer hung around at that place while the AHs went for their walk. The AHs would have passed this place on their way back, and it would have been quite natural for the photographer to ask where they were heading next: up the Combe d’Ire. The photographer could even have watched them turning into the Chemin Rural de Chevaline à Armand. With his superior local knowledge, he would have known that they were taking a detour, that simply continuing down Route du Moulin would be a quicker way to get there. Thus, if P/X5 had hopped into his X5 right after watching them take this detour, he could still have arrived at the Martinet several minutes before them. It would have been a fair bet for him to assume that the AHs would ultimately end up at the Martinet, both because this is where the “permitted” road ends and because there is not really any other place for them to stop before.
@ Peter
Again I agree. The 15h08 mystery photo, taken in Arnand, could merge with the mysterious X5.
A very interesting to note is that SM’s route very very probably was through Arnand too. (If WBM is telling the truth, SM would have taken the same ‘Chemin Rural de Chevaline à Armand’ as SAH did.
In other words, the X5 also could have been on the lookout for SM … lol.
Anyway, what is important now is to align the ONF1 X5 sighting with the big ‘Arnand’ puzzle piece. Was X5 in Arnand? Was X5 the mysterious 15h08 P(hotographer)
My feeling is that if so, P/X5 must have gone to Martinet quickly after 15h08 …
Either because he saw SM passing by
Or he had learned that SAH would later continue to Martinet
In both cases P/X5/X had excellent knowledge about Martinet, thus probably indicating being a local.
Max
“In both cases P/X5/X had excellent knowledge about Martinet, thus probably indicating being a local.”
Not necessarily, X5 could have been monitoring cellphone/web/PC traffic. One of the party uses a map app and enters Martinet@Chevaline as a searchterm. . .
@ GIP
If SAH was the target, and the family was walking around Arnand, and very probably walking to FIB … wouldn’t it be very, very simple to just do a drive-by shooting.
What was the point for choosing Martinet if X simply could have killed SAH and the others at FIB.
A drive-by shooting at FIB, or a killing at Martinet … the nett result is the same. The SAH’s are dead.
The only difference lies with X.
At FIB he would be visible (houses, village people, etc.)
At Martinet he was invisible (nobody around)
So Martinet was not choosen because of SAH (or SM) but because of X himself. A remote spot to kill the target with X staying invisible himself.
Of course in that case X had to be sure his target would make it to Martinet
Again I end up with SM being the more natural target. But ok, I’ll keep all option open 🙂
@ Max, 3 Sep, 2015 – 12:09 pm
It is only about 4 km from Arnand to the Martinet, meaning that a car travelling at an average speed of 50 km/h could cover the distance in 3.3 minutes.
That BMW X5 was seen about 20 minutes before the murders, i.e., at about 15:25, being driven up the Combe d’Iré at speed
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-surrey-22345538
https://twitter.com/jeanmarcduc/status/328992798898524160
To my mind, this implies that, unless the BMW X5 stopped somewhere along the way or took a detour, it cannot have started from Arnand much earlier than 15:20. It could even have started from there after the Al-Hillis resumed their journey by car.
By the same token, there is a gap in the timings of the AHs. Even if they drove at a sedate 30 km/h, the journey from Route de la Bossière to the Martinet should not have taken them more than 8 minutes. Estimated departure time of 15:22 plus 8 minutes = 15:30, meaning that 15 minutes are unaccounted-for. Even if they were chugging along at a snail’s pace, at least 10 minutes of their time are unaccounted-for. The explanation could be as simple as another sightseeing stop, a toilet break or SAH inflating the wonky rear tyre on his car, but I thought it worth mentioning.
The ‘Arnand walk’ thing has SAH walking back to the parked BMW. FIB to BMW = 5 minutes. So SAH was in the car around 15h23. Now via Chevaline to Martinet, speed 30 km/h, is 8 minutes. So SAH arrives 15h31
WBM at 15h40 at Martinet. Means WBM (10 km/h) was at 15h16 in Chevaline where he saw SM. SM 15h16 in Chevaline (20+km/h uphill) means SM was at Martinet at 15h28
WBM sees ONF2 4×4 halfwayish = 15h28 (so that is before the killing)
WBM sees MC 4 minutes before WBM arrives at Martinet (15h40), translates into 15h36, means that MC left Martinet 15h35
This gives MC exactly enough time to do the killing … between 15h32 and 15h34
This coincides with the 15h32 phone call of LR to SM
If I would simply put these calculated ‘facts’ on the table I would come to a simple conclusion …
It is a MC – SM – CS – LR thing (and SAH was unfortunate collateral/witnesses)
Or … if LR really is in the clear, maybe SM was already held at gunpoint, hence his ‘I will call you back’.
I could imagine a few seconds later SM tried to escape, and was shot in the back by X.
Maybe SAH was also held at gunpoint or whatever, and SAH used the phonecall/escape/chaos of SM to try to escape himself.
To me, I’m seeing SM being held at gunpoint by X
Being held at gunpoint implies that X didn’t simply executed SM. Nope, he (X) wanted first to ‘confront’ SM with something.
So what is the connection between LyonMC and SM (and CS)? Most surely over a woman.
I was always intrigued by CB. Pretty lawyer, doing stuff for CS, but when talking about SM it seems her voice ‘breaks’. CB works for SCP Joseph AGUERA & Associés (HQ in Lyon) http://www.barreaulyon.com/fiche-avocat/detail/caroline-blanvillain
Now … wouldn’t this be extremely fun if true 🙂
I am beginning to think that LYON M/C is on the same side as Sylvain Molier,
the FRENCH government side. This is why LMC is UNTOUCHABLE.
The first to arrive is LMC.
LMC goes above Le Martinet to a point just out of view, he is a watcher but also
armed backup if it goes pear shaped, he can be at the parking in seconds on his motorcycle.
Sylvain Mollier is not armed and only on his bicycle, so the exchange is something very portable.
The ONF 2 unexpectedly turns up directing Lyon M/C down combe, he goes down a short distance down hill and turns shrp right and waits there.
The Family al-Hilli fetch up at Le Martinet.
Straight away the BMW X5 shows, out jumps the gun man slaughtering Sylvain Mollier, then the family al-Hilli, they take the “goods” and speed down hill, passing puffing Billy coming up.
L.M.C. follows B.M.W. X5?
Maybe SM told LR who LMC/X (who was holding SM at gunpoint) was.
– LMC/X holds SM at gunpoint
– Phone rings (LR)
– X tells SM ‘Say you will call back!’
– SM answers the phone and says ‘It is CS!’ (and start to run away)
– X furious shoots SM in the back
– SAH tries to escape in the chaos
– LR now blackmails CS
Max
Cherche les femmes or follow the money. The money trail leads to SM’s employers.
Industrial espionage (or the appearance thereof) could be the key to what either Pink or myself described as ‘putting things right’.
If there were the suspicion of data being stolen from the research centre then a witch-hunt may have ensued. Who better to point the finger at than SM?
After all, he would seem to have a pressing need for moolah with maintenance to pay, an upmarket new wife, their new baby just arrived. But wait a minute, hasn’t he just taken three years off as paternity leave? And have you seen his new velo?
If someone started monitoring SM, observed that he regularly rode up the combe, then picked up on the phone call and CS taking time off work. It might have seemed unusual and perhaps worthwhile following him.
Encroyable hazard, he was unfortunate to stop in a remote lay-by and have a chat with a fellow cycling enthusiast, who happened to of Middle Eastern origin. . .
Thinking out loud here. Back when we were discussing the cache of gems from the Mont Blanc plane crashes, I wondered about the young man who turned in the box of uncut stones worth a fortune. It was his duty by law to hand this over to authorities, but many would not have done so.
So how is it that the infamous man of a certain age and influence, with a vast collection of found items from Mont Blanc, is allowed to take and keep whatever treasure he finds up on the glacier? Does the law only apply when said items are discovered without the help of metal detectors and GPS? Is this why the man from Lyon says the glacier just coughs up relics when he is there? Very strange.
The latest media frenzy over the buried Nazi ghost train and found bar of (non-Nazi) gold in a lake has drawn attention to a situation that had been going on in for quite some time.
http://www.thelocal.fr/20140123/france-loses-archeological-treasure-to-pillagers
I’ve wondered if the young French mountain climber from a town not far from the Chevaline shooting site was motivated to go looking for that treasure box of rough gems before someone else could find it, thus it being lost forever. Or was it merely happenstance that a regular hardcore treasure hunter happened not to be up on the mountain on the day the glacier offered up this gift?
Whatever the circumstances, it is clear that treasure seekers are looting France’s history, and it is becoming a profitable business endeavour for many, despite being illegal.
Would someone who has grown up with the stories of the old alpinists, and their code of honour be motivated to take action to stop the plundering?
Are local officials turning a blind eye to this sort of thing in return for consideration?
Revenge is a dish best served cold.
Peter
Re “a gap in the timings of the AHs.”
I certainly agree with you that they took longer than your calculated “not more than 8 min”.
Personally my timeline uses a minimum of 12 minutes. I ‘fill the gap’ by not using a constant speed and positing a brief stop approx 2/3 of the way through the climb.
I justify the slow, and slowing, speed on the deteriorating standard of the road through the climb combined with the mother-in-law effect.
Normally, any man faced with a hillclimb up a bumpy potholed road with his mother-in-law in the back seat would take the opportunity to rag it like Clarkson on crack. But the bank appointment was imminant and for the sake of the children I suppose he drove for the comfort and safety of his passengers.
In fact we know that the last section was ‘driven’ by Zeena, so there must have been a brief stop to allow her to get into the front of the car.
Max
You wrote “The only difference lies with X.”
Not quite, if they think there is a meeting and/or deal at Martinet then they get to ‘get’ the counterparty as well.
That might be just as important to them.
I still have not totally excluded other parties being the intended targets.
The overnight hikers are the favourites in my book.
One scenario could be be someone waiting above expecting the hikers to exit the car and start the climb. After a few minutes he stealthily ventures down because he suspects he is running out of time. He can hear the GG buzzing around on the other side of the valley and is worried that his escape vehicle will be discovered.
By this time SM has arrived and stopped to chat with SAH near the sign. X peers through the bushes and sees the athletic SM and mistakes him for PB. He can just barely see two women in the back of the brake, one older one younger, as he expects.
There is also another middle aged man. So not just an overnight hike with one ‘guide’. . . Time to settle this.
Merdre! where did that kid come from? Is that her bike? Ooo la la!
@ GIP
If LR blackmails CS, we also have a money trail 🙂
Some good work here while I was away and here’s another thing to consider,Z saying she only saw one killer.
“Sky’s Crime Correspondent Martin Brunt said: “French media reports are saying that before she left France, seven-year-old Zainab al Hilli spoke to investigators and said she only saw one killer.”
I do not know how accurate this is reported or whether it was given to reporters to be slightly ambiguous but could it mean she literally only saw “one killer” but other people were there any thoughts ?
a garage and a place of work of a carpenter is fire bombed in The Bauges,
just down the road from GRIGNON.
http://www.ledauphine.com/savoie/2015/09/01/incendies-de-fin-mai-un-individu-mis-en-examen
Pink
I expect the child saw the one killer who tried to kill her.
However it certainly does not mean she has an overview of the situation, how could she at her age.
More than one person was involved in the slaughter.
I very much doubt this was a Lone Wolf event.
@ Good In Parts, 3 Sep, 2015 – 4:26 pm
In fact we know that the last section was ‘driven’ by Zeena, so there must have been a brief stop to allow her to get into the front of the car.
I have been meaning to ask this for some time now, and I shall now seize the opportunity to ask @ all: where does this apparent factoid regarding Zainab (not Zeena) sitting on her father’s lap and pretending to drive the car come from? How robust is this information? Did any witnesses see them driving like this? Did the gendarmes merely infer this because they found fibre traces from Zainab’s clothes on her father’s trousers?
The reason why I think that this question matters is that the most obvious explanation of why Zainab would have sat on her father’s lap during the final stretch of their journey is as simple as it is chilling: the AH family picked up an additional passenger in Arnand, a person whom they deemed to be quite harmless, obviously. Somebody like the daughter of the X5 driver: X5 driver, whom I would equate with the Suit Man of the night before, meets the AHs again, has a somewhat friendlier chat with them, takes a group photo of them, then instructs his own daughter to join the AH party after purporting to need to attend to some urgent business – “I shall see you guys at the Martinet, then”.
My supporting evidence for this hypothesis is slender, but there is some: apparently, the gendarmes have two sets of salient DNA evidence, although the actual deed was perpetrated by a single shooter. Moreover, Fat Bastard’s German ex-wife was recently asked to donate a DNA sample – why would they want a female’s DNA sample if they are after a male killer, unless they thought that a female was involved in the case as well?
@ Peter
Zainab sitting on SAH’s lap was mentioned in Les faits Karl Zéro : La tuerie de Chevaline
At 36m into the video
I don’t think it is on the web anymore. I had to remove it under pressure of YT 🙂
That doc was actually quite good
Trawling through files fruitlessly looking for the Zainab driving reference for Peter (thanks for finding it Max) I came across this quote from Eric:-
“Fin 2014, humainement, tout ce qui aura été possible […] aura été réalisé. Si nous n’avons alors rien trouvé de plus, nous devrons réduire les effectifs et passer à une cellule de trois ou quatre enquêteurs, comme pour les affaires Godard ou Dupont de Ligonnès.”
Thierry Boinet, correspondance à Grenoble – Le Journal du Dimanche samedi 22 février 2014”
So, at the end of 2014 clearly he did not actually wind down the investigation however the end of 2015 is now in sight. It would be useful for a journo to question his intent apropos continuing the investigation. Political pressure may be needed.
My opinion is that, wound down to 3 or 4 staff, the investigation would effectively be finished. The accumulated in-depth insight of the investigating officers would be gone.
I feel a bit like that about the the internet investigation GIP when I go to old links a lot of them have gone ,its very sad that The Scotland Yard blog disappeared and Silk Road Visions, DI changed servers or something recently and quite a few things don’t seem to load it feels fragile.
I am aware it bothers me I suppose people working on the investigation must have to deal with emotions when they have invested a lot of time on a case and they get moved on ,I wonder if it comes in the training how to move on .
have you checked archive.org ?
As an afterthought I didn’t really understand the early posters reasons for repeating stuff over several threads now this far along
I get it its because it vanishes, they safeguarded quite a bit by dropping photo’s and copies of stories over on DI and SYS was great as well he saved a lot if you cant find something anymore it worth checking the DI thread to see if they saved it.
Who is Fat Bastard?
If both Al Hilli (his daughter climbing on his lap) and Mollier (the phone call) stopped/paused on the Combe D’Ire….
…then how far “behind” (initially) was WBM.
If neither of the victims (parties of) had stopped/paused, then WBM would have been further away. Does that hold any significance ?
Relative to each other, Al Hilli would have still reached the car park before Mollier (I imagine). Although with his daughter “driving”, I would think Al Hilli was travelling much slower (along the last section) than he originally would have been, when he entered the climb.
Is that significant ?
MN FB is James Matthews a friend and neighbour of SAH .
If the “Target” was Saad al-Hilli why not take him out when he was leaving the Saint Jorioz
camping on his own, apparently he did this multiple times?
If the deed had to be done at Le Martinet and the “Target” was just Mr.al-Hilli, what not take him out with a double tap when he is outside the vehicle.
Why need to slaughter the ladies?
If the “Target” was the family al-Hilli why involve Slvain Mollier?
If the “Target” was Sylvain Mollier why involve the family al-Hilli?
To me it seems fairly clear that one or more of the al-Hilli adults and Sylvain were the “TARGETS”
They were targeted at Le Martinet because that was going to be
THE ONLY TIME THEY WOULD ALL BE TOGETHER.
So the question is:
what were the al-Hilli family hoping to be doing with Sylvain Mollier?
The second question is:
is this the main line of the FRENCH ( even though they have not publicly stated this line)?