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Or perhaps SM wanted to confront X with something .
@Max
3 Sep, 2015 – 2:04 pm
“Being held at gunpoint implies that X didn’t simply executed SM. Nope, he (X) wanted first to ‘confront’ SM with something.”
Tourist… pissing off tourists in an alley.
Kinda like a “lone wolf” killing.
Trouble is….”anything goes”, because the killings are so mad.
ONF2 killed them…..as he was behind the guy from Lyon (and knew there was a cyclist on the CDI as they’d just killed him)
WBM killed them….as he got pissed off ? And he was the “last man” to see everyone alive.
The Citroen van man killed them (Mr Lyon was having a piss, heard it, shat it, never came forward). Citroen van man hates people from Iraqi (that drive BMW’s).
Anything “could” work.
…and I don’t have a lab !
(just a SIC and an FA) !!!!
It is a Citroen Fourgon alright (albeit a Berlingo I think). So this couples with JMD quote about the Citroen Fourgon (Visa)
In other words, this could be ONF1 !!
https://deadzone61.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/onfcar1.jpg
https://deadzone61.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/onfcar2.jpg
This point is … it fits !!
Never become scared when it finally fits 🙂
This was the eternal ‘Yes, but …’ case. The ‘But’ was there because something was wrong. And of course, X would have inserted a ‘wrong piece’. Namely his alibi.
The problem then is ‘What is the wrong piece?’
Well, the answer is simple … The X5
But even the wrong piece turns out to be right. Because the wrong piece is per def equal to the alibi. So in the end there are no wrong pieces. The X5 EXACTLY is what it is. The final RIGHT piece, namely the alibi. With every murder there is an X, and nearly every X has an alibi … an alibi simply comes with the Sudoku.
So, after 3 years I have to come to the conclusion … ONF1 is the guy
(well, another 5 minutes, and it is the 5th of september … how elegant)
@ James
I want to close the lab, and the case … 3 years is enough 🙂
(still MH370 to find though … more something for you;)
Max….
I want to find solutions. Solutions are better.
MH370. It crashed. Most likely suicide. They just have to find it.
Here (Al Hilli family and Mollier), things are different.
You run your lab…or don’t.
Any idea(s) is(are) possible.
(But I never knew you had a “lab”, unless you mean you’re little place that GIP, Pink, Peter, Michael ….never get an invite to ?)
BUT… you solved the case !
Well done.
Al Hilli and family walked up a back alley, they pissed off a forest ranger, who collected his gun (a well prepared one at that), then tracked them up a mountain road….and shot all (not quite all) of them dead (plus a local cyclist….on a 5K bike).
Great.
MH370 Was remote controlled and taken to Diego Garcia.
P.S. Have you and Lynda closed your “lab” yet ?
P.P.S (whilst laughing). Max had to actually “run this idea past Lynda”, before he released it to you guys ????
You actually “buy” this shite ?
Hmm… As I have argued before, it is easier to believe that the X5 is a myth than that it magically appeared and disappeared without being captured on CCTV. If it be a myth, that myth must serve somebody’s purposes, most probably the purposes of the person who claimed to have seen it.
Yet, was ONF1 not supposed to be on duty that day, doing his thing in the woods rather than sitting around at home? Thus, if the AHs managed to annoy him, they would need to have done so at the Martinet. It could have been something as trivial as littering: there is no bin there, and it might be the ONF’s sorry lot to have to keep the place clean.
The fact that ONF1 lives in Arnand would be only relevant in the sense that he could have driven home immediately after the murders and cleaned himself up, cached the gun and magazines and so forth. Moreover, his job implies that nobody would consider it strange if he came home caked in dirt or with wet boots and sleeves. His job could even explain away blood on his clothing.
In my opinion, the biggest trouble with ONF1 as the perpetrator is that the gendarmerie found two sets of unaccounted-for DNA at the scene, neither of which belongs to him. If they had found no DNA traces, that would merely imply that the perpetrator had been very meticulous and forensically aware. The fact that they found two sets of DNA, neither of which belongs to ONF1, is more difficult to explain.
Some interesting details here
http://www.parismatch.com/Actu/Faits-divers/La-mysterieuse-famille-Al-Hilli-La-tuerie-de-Chevaline-822463
The feeling I am getting is that there was trouble brewing somewhere and SM was on a mission something had him worried and he arrived where he did because of it ,CS and LR seem to be restless as well ,the speed CS went looking ,LR phoning at about the time he arrived .
I wonder if SM could drive if I was right it would seem more logical to take a car than cycle does anyone know ?
Taking just this piece from Peters article (thanks Peter)
“By chance, no doubt, but there are so many coincidences in this story it’s a word we hardly dare to write. Lydia, his ex-wife, calls to 15 h 32. “I finished the climb, I remind you,” he replies, still breathless. It never will. Three minutes later in the parking Martinet, at 780 meters altitude, gunshots ring out for less than two minutes. ”
It seems the call was three minutes before he got shot but we don’t where he was cyclists among you what would you call finishing the climb the lay-by or the top ?
LR phones 15h 32 shooting 3 mins later so 15h 35 that’s early is it not ?
@ Pink, 5 Sep, 2015 – 8:41 am
It is early, but it fits perfectly with the “Arnand Walk” timeline. Also, I have always thought that WBM rendering First Aid, going downhill, meeting the PD party, going back up again, getting into a punch-up with PD, finally PD going back downhill again to call for help will have taken something close to ten minutes. If the shooting stopped at 15:37 and you add a few minutes for the perpetrator to vanish before WBM arrived, it makes sense in my opinion.
I wonder where it puts ONF 1 encounter Max get out of bed .
@ Pink, 5 Sep, 2015 – 8:35 am
To avoid any misunderstandings: what SM said on the phone was “I will call you back once I have finished the climb”. I would take the latter to mean reaching the top of the hill, as the part above the Martinet is the fun part of this route for a cyclist who enjoys conquering ascents.
Anyway, what interests me most is the DNA that the gendarmerie found (as the article cited above reiterates): where exactly was it found, and how sure can they be that it belongs to the killer? If they can be sure that it belongs to the killer, then all known actors are in the clear. ONF1 and ONF2, WBM, Menegaldo, TS, etc. etc., they will all have been excluded and the killer necessarily is an unknown entity. (Implying that any attempt to solve this puzzle by rearranging the known pieces however ingeniously is doomed to failure.)
Thank you Peter, an illuminating write up.
Much to ponder.
Peter
My guess would be that at least one of the DNA samples was recovered from the piece of the wooden grip that broke off the Luger.
It could be from the killer or possibly the previous owner of the gun.
What do you make of the time given for the phone call?
“A 15 h 44 et 59 secondes, les secours sont prévenus par deux témoins qui découvrent le massacre.”
Again a guess, could this be an attempt by WBM to place a call registered by the cell base station or by his phone itself?
At the twenty-first century, new techniques had to be perfect because of the crimes. Paris Match back on three various recent developments unresolved. After the legionary Benitez and Dupont Ligon, here is the last part.
His black hair has grown back to the shoulders, thick enough to hide the scar that split his left temple and distorts his face. Zainab Al-Hilli has celebrated its 10th anniversary in the spring. “It was a great party with cakes, gifts! tells his uncle Zaid. Zainab and her sister were playing and laughing. Today, they are happy. Their life is normal. “That is to say, they do more horrific nightmares, not howl at night. And never mention France.
Zainab and Zeena Al-Hilli are the only two survivors of the massacre at Chevaline that killed their parents and grandmother, executed by bullets in the parking lot of a hiking trail, along with a cyclist. The author of the massacre, more than one hundred investigators continue to search in vain Zainab saw. She remembers the terrible cries of his father yelling at him to go back in the car … she Recognise his face? “One day she will talk. And we will. It’s all there in his head “, swears his uncle.
Like all may be in the record and the past hundred times auscultated the three main characters. The father, the mother, a cyclist. First Saad Al-Hilli, who died Wednesday, September 5, 2012, at 15 h 35 in Chevaline, in the hills of Lake Annecy and born in Baghdad in 1962 in a family of less-active Shiites. He is the younger brother Zaid, who tells us the birthday of his niece and son Kadhim, a wealthy business leader, at the head of several companies, including a poultry farm, a tissue company, gypsum extraction plant. The Al-Hilli are notable, they own several properties and everything seems successful …
Saad has all the brilliant geek, hard working, remember the neighbors
Until July 1968 when a coup propels the ruling Baath Party. Sunni triumph and Al-Hilli prefer exile in Britain. They settled in Pimlico, upscale district of central London, and then moved into a large house in Claygate, 26 kilometers from the capital. Their two son are educated in reputable establishments. Saad is a gifted student, especially in science, mathematics and physics. The father continues his business, back in Iraq, investing in Spain, stash their money in Switzerland. It is an authoritarian, sometimes brutal, including Saad, very close to his mother, can not stand the anger. After her divorce, Kadhim share in Spain and Saad remains with his mother, an attentive son, a student at Kingston. Soon here with a mechanical engineering degree specializing in aerospace and satellite design. It has all the brilliant geek, hard working, even if it is a funny and sometimes playful boy, talkative, remember the neighbors. It will wait for the death of his mother to think of it. Three months later, in April 2003, he met Iqbal, Abu Dhabi. Also an Iraqi, 38, dentist and professor at the University of Science and Technology Ajman, United Arab Emirates. Brown, thin, jet-black eyes, lovely smile. On August 28, 2003, and Saad Iqbal marry. She forgets just a detail: the young woman is already married … A New Orleans, where it goes by the name “Kelly”, she married Dudley Thompson, 54, said “Jimmy”, a massive American biker and paunchy, old cop converted into oil, which he left after a year to return to Abu Dhabi. Divorce will be delivered a week after the new marriage. Apart from that, everything is normal. Zainab was born 16 March 2005, Zeena April 24, 2008. “My brother has never been as happy as they are born, it was a super dad. He loved his daughters more than anything, “still tells us Zaid, her eldest.
The brothers have long been inseparable.
Saad Zaid says be afraid and fear for his life
Until 2010, when a violent dispute broke out. Today, Zaid plays down a slight smile and evokes a misunderstanding, remains elusive. The prosecutor of Annecy, Eric Maillaud, is more accurate: Zaid, used in a golf, managed the fortune of their father. Saad wanted to help, he went to Iraq in 2004 and 2010 to recover assets, and realized that Zaid had tried to exclude the will a legacy estimated 3 to 5 million . At the death of the father, August 11, 2011, the two brothers are torn. Soon, Saad is metamorphosis. His friends discover him another personality. It oscillates between hatred and depression. Saad records all conversations with his older – “I did not know it,” says one. Change the locks of the house, raises an alarm, buys an electric Taser gun, keeps hundreds of documents on his computer, downloaded on his mobile phone spy software that would locate it if it disappears … Saad says fear Zaid and fear for his life. “Get every last cent of money embezzled became his obsession, ensures Eric Maillaud. And save the family heritage and restore the honor of the father. “He does not speak to his brother
When summer arrives in 2012, Saad claims an urgent appointment in Switzerland, without giving further explanations. Go to the bank, job interview? We know nothing more. But he wants to take the opportunity to go camping. On 29 August 2012, the trailer is hitched to the wagon BMW burgundy. Saad, his wife, his two daughters, his stepmother, Suhaila, 74, left home at 20 pm, towards Dover where they have to take the 22-hour ferry. The journey begins as a British getaway on the continent. Calais, Rouen, Dreux, Vert-en-Drouais, La Charité-sur-Loire. And finally Saint-Jorioz on the shores of Lake Annecy. Saturday 1st September, they moved to l’Europa, and Solitaire Lake until September 5, Wednesday. Instead of going to class, Zainab, 7, pick apples with his sister, Zeena, 4 years. It’s a nice day. All must hike.
Until then, nothing seemed to destine them to cross the path of Sylvain Mollier. And especially not to die with him. Sylvain Mollier lives in Ugine thirty kilometers. He is 45 and the athletic physique of an athlete addicted to cycling and rugby. “A beautiful smiling guy, discreet, without problems,” pretend friends. A great father, very close to his three children: Mathis, 13, Leo, 10, and Louis, the baby he just had with his second wife, Claire, 29, a pretty blonde, the pharmacist Grignon. Commerce is thriving but the days are long. And Sylvain, metalworker, decided that it was he who would take a leave to care for the infant. For twenty years, he worked for Cezus, a subsidiary of the Areva Group specializing in metal processing for the manufacture of nuclear fuels.
If the killer is a lone madman, it was a diabolical coolness
This September 5, Claire left work early for Sylvain could ride a bike. He donned his gaudy outfit climber, kissed his girlfriend one last time and about 14 h 40, launched himself on the road Annecy. He started along the county before embarking on the road to Doussard, a nice little town. The Al-Hilli, they have already had time to take pictures, and then they ventured on federal forest road of Combe d’Ire. A steep, pitted with potholes of about 3 km. Sylvain Mollier tackled too. By chance, no doubt, but there are so many coincidences in this story it’s a word we hardly dare to write. Lydia, his ex-wife, calls to 15 h 32. “I finished the climb, I remind you,” he replies, still breathless. It never will. Three minutes later in the parking Martinet, at 780 meters altitude, gunshots ring out for less than two minutes. Twenty-one shot at close range with a Luger kind 1906/29 made in Switzerland – a weapon of virtually untraceable collection – and size 7.65 Parabellum, a rare ammunition, known for its precision and low recoil it causes. No evidence will be found. If the killer is a lone madman, it was an evil temper. If it works as a team, he was able to rely on professionals to clean up the crime scene. Today even it is not known who he shot first. A yet essential information. There is no known target.
At 15 h 44 and 59 seconds, the aid is prevented by two witnesses who discovered the massacre. The car Iraqis is bogged down in an embankment, reverse engaged, the engine is still running, the windows exploded. The French body lying on the ground, away from his bike. Four bullets killed Saad and his wife, three stepmother, five cyclists. All were shot in the head at least once. Unconscious in the gravel, the skull smashed, wounded in the left shoulder by a projectile, Zainab, 7, was immediately airlifted to hospital. Nobody imagines that a small 4 year old daughter hid under the skirts of her dead mother, unharmed, probably because the killer has not seen him either. Zeena will remain prostrate and asleep for eight hours! Around 23 hours, huge spotlights dim pierce the darkness. A policeman pulls out as the obstetrician who gave him birth. But this time, it is not a cry. “She was not crying, tells the prosecutor who never forgot the scene. In the arms of a technician, she smiled at us. At that time, we were not investigators just fathers. “For the rest, for three years, the night remained dark.
“There are too many doors, we did manage to close in any” regrets the magistrate. Each hypothesis is peeled, no definitively rejected. Iraqi Vendetta, industrial espionage … Saad worked for SSTL (Surrey Satellite Technology Limited), a subsidiary of EADS specializing in satellite design in 3D, “but it was not at all responsible for sensitive mission,” said the prosecutor. “Family revenge” track remains the most credible. Not for Zaid, whose face hardened. “I, a suspect? It’s ridiculous ! if he exclaims, irritated. I loved my brother. We had problems, but I’m desperate to see her children grow up without him. For me, it’s Sylvain Mollier who was the target! ”
Eric Maillaud: “The killing of Chevaline still has no sense”
A change of track that is not rejected. Although the lawyer of the family Mollier sweeps of their cuffs. Patrice Menegaldo, handler, ex-legionnaire knew Sylvain Mollier since adolescence. It has been for a year and a half the companion of his sister, Sylviane. After the slaughter, between September and December 2012, two police came to his home in Ugine, to interrogate and take his weapon with which he trained in a center, a few times a year, according to its shooting notebooks : 357 Magnum revolver. Patrice was again heard in April 2013. “An interview of less than an hour,” according to the prosecutor. A long custody muscular view and humiliating “cell and slip,” said the former soldier to his doctor. He felt soiled, weakened. And he committed suicide on June 2, 2014. On a coffee table, this being sensitive, simple, silent “but marked by conflict zones missions”, according to his sister Christelle, left four letters, one for the justice. There one of the investigators accused of having forced to confess (“he will have to be accountable to a lot of people want to play the vigilante adventurer,” he writes) and concludes: “I repeat, I do not know nothing of this whole story and my gesture is not an admission […]. This is a tragedy. ”
The killing of Chevaline still has no meaning. To the point that, in the corridors of the gendarmerie, called the investigation file “the great book of coincidences.” We meet these chances which may raise any conspiracy theories. Baghdad, a heritage, aerospace, satellites, nuclear power, a man who believes in danger, a 4 x 4 unidentified – a BMW X3 or X5 registered in Britain – and a trace of unknown DNA. And to add a bit of confusion, this ultimate concordance of time, even more absurd than the others: the day Iqbal, the mother of the girls, was executed, her first husband, the American biker, died of a heart attack a red light … “We could not do the autopsy, laments Eric Maillaud, but it does not seem to be any connection between the two deaths … My great fear is to have a bis Grégory case. With only one hope, one day finds that Zainab memory, and that we describe the murderer of his family. “No Emilie Blachere
 @ EmilieBlachere
Patrice = Patsy
@Peter
Now, that’s more like it.
At least we know which “paper” has got hold of the facts.
1535 makes absolute sense.
1500 (it is reported) is the encounter of ONF2/Mr Lyon at the hairpins.
ONF2 departs and later passes Mollier on his climb.
1515 AL Hilli is at the FIB.
And Martin must already be on the CDI (30mins to get to the car park).
Which puts ONF1 (and the X5 encounter) at 1450 or so. Even later.
He has (ONF1) already seen the biker at the car park (we assume is M. Lyon)
What time was LFR’s sighting of Al Hilli ? 1440 ?
Everything is there.
Peter
On reflection, I think EM originally spoke of DNA traces that were possibly left by ‘garagists’ and by implication were inside the car.
There was mention somewhere that there was significant DNA contamination by rescue workers and gendarmes so those traces may have been eliminated by now.
You noted that the (Italian I thought) wife of James Mathews who now lives in Germany was asked for a DNA sample. Parry quotes JM as saying she was called on Jan 5th 2015 by the police and continues “If you had wanted to exclude her from the DNA samples found in the caravan and the house you would think you would do it sooner than two-and-a-half years later“
I thought Saad al-Hilli did his own garage work?
@ Peter
It is much simpler
ONF1 went down as he said. Arrived in Arnand around 15h05/10. The time SAH was walking around. Then something must have happened which triggered ONF1.
Something as simple as SAH parking his car in front of ONF1 house or on top of ONF1 usual parking spot or something else like walking on ‘private ground’ or whatever.
ONF1 exploded, going ‘F*** these stupid foreigners’ (add some muslim hate into the mix or something like that)
He gets the Luger, follows SAH, knows they will arrive at Martinet, takes himself the paralell route and hate/kills them at Martinet, and makes it back home unseen.
His alibi? I dunno, but he introduces this X5 he had seen before (must be around 15h00)
– – –
Sure there can be variants, may ONF1 covers for X, but ONF1 is the centerpiece, because he introduced the non-existent X5
I had a PM with JMD. After Lyon MC was found. And JMD said that also the investigators doubt the X5. Well I imagine EM & co were shocked to see that Lyon MC produced nothing, no X, so it was back to the drawing board for EM, Start from scratch. And begin with the only missing piece … namely the X5 (and its caller)
https://deadzone61.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/twitter-com_2014-10-19_13-11-54.png
@ Good In Parts, 5 Sep, 2015 – 10:27 am
Given that they explicitly ruled out Eric D. on the basis that his DNA didn’t match
http://www.ledauphine.com/haute-savoie/2014/02/19/tuerie-de-chevaline-la-justice-prudente-sur-la-garde-a-vue-d-un-ancien-policier
they must have something a little more substantial than random DNA found inside the BMW (unless my wild speculation that the AHs might have had an extra pax in the front passenger seat on the way up to the Martinet were actually true and had been confirmed by them). Likewise, they must have considered LMC highly suspect initially. The speed and certainty with which they nonetheless ruled him out suggests that they have some pretty compelling forensic evidence up their sleeves.
I am just wondering how sure they can be that this DNA is the killer’s, which will largely depend upon where it was found. To give a few hypothetical examples in descending order of certainty:
– skin flakes beneath Zainab’s fingernails (if she scratched him whilst defending herself)
– skin flakes on the grip fragment
– hair(s) on Zainab’s clothing
– drops of human blood not belonging to any of the victims found on the ground
and so forth, all the way down to DNA found on a hypothetical fresh cigarette butt lying around at the scene of the crime.
@ Max, 5 Sep, 2015 – 11:54 am
If we assume, as I do, that the gendarmerie have the killer’s DNA, then ONF1 = X is not a valid solution to this puzzle.
I totally agree that the sighting of the X5 is questionable (although your mate Jean-Marc Ducos earlier claimed that it had been seen by two witnesses). Personally, I think that ONF1 is lying about the X5 – the descriptions of car and driver he gave were too richly detailed for my taste, and his demeanour came across as somewhat histrionic.
Now, if he lied, why would he have done that? In order to establish that, we need to find out under what circumstances he gave that testimony. It is my current understanding that he first told this tale to the BBC (no doubt for a handsome fee, and with this being a story that he could be sure was exactly what they wanted to hear: a UK car with a vaguely Iraqi-looking driver as the prime suspect) before he told it to the police. If that is the case, then he had painted himself into a corner by giving that interview to the BBC; he must have felt that he had to stick to his story vis-à-vis the police, because recanting would have made him look a right idiot.
I think on day two after The Slaughter of the Horses,
Eric Maillaud said something along the lines of:
it seems imposible for this to be the work of just one person.
So, if we are agreeing with Eric Maillaud,
there were more than one aggressor at Le Martinet on the day of
The Slaughter of the Horses.
It seems possible that at least one aggressor, may not have left their DNA at the crime scene,
for example if they did not fire a shooter nor touch the victims or their stuff.
If we are in the mood to agree with Eric Maillaud
that there was only ever one motorcyclist
that motorcyclist is NOT Eric Devouassoux who has been ruled out by his DNA not being found at the crime scene,
then we are to assume that LYONMAN is also the motorcyclist seen by puffing Billy on his ascent to the slaughter scene.
So what was LYONMAN doing for three quarters of an hour?
So I am suggesting that a positive DNA sample at the crime scene, say on the al-Hilli property or on the Luger fragment is likely to come from an assassin
but you cannot say that a lack of DNA at the crime scene
precludes a suspect from involvement.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/9992847/Al-Hilli-murder-French-police-contaminated-evidence.html
“Now Mr Maillaud insists that no “significant” DNA clues were left at the scene.”
Begs the question if they didn’t have any how could they rule out ED
http://www.theweek.co.uk/europe/57368/alps-murder-mountain-man-cleared-killing-al-hillis
“ANOTHER blow for those hoping the French might have caught the murderer of the al-Hilli family: the DNA of Eric Devouassoux does not match the DNA found at the scene of the crime.”