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I think somebody ought to stretch themselves
and make a public statement on why a person with access to the RPV was studying bomb making whilst at work.
I mean, it is rather important.
M. & P
Back to ‘what they saw that day but have not told the Police about for fear of reprisals dot com’.
Most probably something anachronistic
I seem to remember that there was an odd report that a green 4×4 and a MC were seen by the builders heading up the combe beforehand. I discounted this as it was not repeated and seemed confused with the account of WBM.
Then there was the malleable timing of the MC sighting by that farmer (Durcher maybe). Firstly he ‘saw nothing’ then he was contradicted by his wife who told him what he saw!
The timing was all over the shop. I also had doubts about the location given by the media.
If pressed I would guess that the ‘something anachronistic’ was a vehicle apparently exiting the combe later than the media accounts would imply.
GIP, Paul Ducher – the farmer and his wife Lise live opposite the Bewicks chalet.
Denis Janin is the farmer on the Col de Cherel several miles away.
Here is my very long assessment of maybe:
What they saw may have nothing to do with the event, just some dodgepot doing something dodgy, the killer isn’t necessarily from the UK, could be from a neighbouring country or anywhere else in the world ! Remember Maillaud said the answer lies in the UK, he didn’t say the killer was in the UK, never has. ZAH was arrested for ‘conspiracy to commit murder’, not murder.
The Gendarmes will be all over the Chevalinois like a rash after this Press revelation, and we all know the favourite French games, primarily dodging taxes and secondarily don’t get involved unless you have to.
Now if the people who saw things have been threatened, that is a very different matter.
Look at it this way, there is a killer who appears to have left no trace of his murderous activity, that requires planning ‘malice aforethought’.
A nutter, unless he was OCD, would not have cleaned all his ammo to the umpteenth to leave no trace, a professional professional would have collected his spent cartridges, that leaves something between the two, afterall they fall near the gun firing position.
I remain of the opinion that SAH was expected there alone.
Play it out, he gets shot in a remote layby. The family raise the alarm some hours later, maybe the next morning, the bloke (SAH) hadn’t returned from one of his sorties. The women know of the altercation the day before with the well dressed man who spoke Arabic (I think he did). Also they must have seen it, or were they still picking up fallen apples ?
Will they report this element to the Police ? They know it means their lives will be at risk.
So, the answer to why they were killed that afternoon is because the women could identify the man from the day before and having killed SAH on the Wednesday afternoon, their lives would be cut short as well, it would have been only a matter of time.
The womens lives were already in danger after they saw SAH encounter with suitman. Imagine if they’d lived ? What stories they could tell, or not tell to protect themselves and the family.
MN, if ever you pass near where I live give me a call and you will find the FRENCH are no different to you, possibly slightly more tolerant of foreigners, only slightly.
Finally, GIP, Peter, have you been able to read the Press article ?
M.
Thanks for pointing out my conflation of the farmers. I am busy with family atm (or should be) so shall have to leave your assessment till tomorrow. One final word:- photographer?
GIP – how about a timer on the camera ?
Depends where the photo was taken and if there was a wall or the car used as the ‘tripod’….
If not, then the local photographer hasn’t come forward, why ever not, if all he was doing was taking a family holiday snap.
Here is the paragraph:
Les gendarmes ont à nouveau convoqué les habitants du village cet été, un énième tentative pour faire parler d’éventual témoins. Un Chevalinois l’assure, certain personnes ont “vu des choses” le jour de la tuerie, mais n’ont pas parlé a la justice, par peur de répresailles.
I have to go walkabout again, so a finishing thought, as far as we know the only protagonist known to us (general public) to have come into contact with SAH is suitman.
Not MC, not 4×4, not WBM, not SM …..
A bit like the MC, generally thought to be the killer or involved. Until suitman is found and ‘mis hors cause’ he’s the next one in the line of suspects.
Couldn’t resist this for MN !
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3293998/From-mother-love-Spy-agency-MI6-advertises-new-intelligence-officers-Mumsnet-warns-hopefuls-make-sure-DH-discreet.html
And of course Maillaud is leaving next year, if you think you have a better ‘mental capacity to continue’, I’m sure you’ll get a fair hearing in Annecy, join the queue, behind ME, of course :-)!!
As ever great fun to interact, regrettably have to go again, ducking and diving, always trying to remain below the…. oh f
u
c
k
!
@GIP Take your pick
“A British cyclist, who is a former RAF serviceman, has told police he saw a green four-wheel drive car and a motorbike speeding towards the scene before he arrived, police said today….
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/9528207/France-shooting-Witness-saw-4×4-and-motorbike-at-scene.html
….
“Laurent Fillion-Robin, a 38-year-old builder, also claimed there was no sign of any vehicle following the family. He was working on a house near Chevaline when he saw the maroon BMW drive past between 2.30pm and 3pm.
He told police he had seen a green 4×4 and a motorbike heading in the direction of the crime scene beforehand. ….
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/an-alpine-murder-mystery-why-were-the-al-hillis-shot-dead-8125292.html
””””’
http://www.metronews.fr/info/chevaline-25-douilles-un-4×4-vert-et-un-temoin-cle/mlig!m18LLth0rW5Sg/
Man cycling who discovered the crime scene Wednesday reported seeing a green 4×4 and a motorbike in the opposite direction down shortly before. “But here, 4×4, we cross at every street corner,” said Eric Maillaud nuanced.
@M
What is your information source about “Un Chevalinois l’assure, certain personnes ont “vu des choses” le jour de la tuerie, mais n’ont pas parlé a la justice, par peur de répresailles.”
In my “as an Hollywood film” I mean a storyline about 15H00 to 15H45.
3:00 pm they (the bad men) block the entrance of the “combe d’Ire” at the level of the crossing ” Route Dangereuse “. At first, I thought that they had made it by means of a herd of cows, but there is no dung on photos, I think that it is simply with barriers of the local police.
3:20 pm When SAH arrives again at the crossing ” Route Dangereuse”, there is not obstacle anymore and is possible go up to the parking lot. At this moment the bad men close the route again, making impossible the passage of witnesses. It was without counted on SM who passes to same!
@M, 9:07 pm:
“M” is an excellent forum name for this particular topic. But aside from that, did you notice how the photo of HQ in that article looks remarkably similar to a Lego structure? That, no doubt, was planned with mums (or even moms) in mind.
@ Bacchus,
that seems a possibility but has not been mentioned (I believe by Eric Maillaud)
so if “they” did block the route up the combe, previously to the arrival of the family al-Hilli, then unblock it just before their turning up, then block it again after they had passed, that would have involved at least four or five operatives and comms.
That sounds like a state-sponsered hit.
Have Eric Maillaud / Lieutenant-Colonel Benoit Vinnemann
ever categorically state that
Sylvain Mollier / Claire Schutz did not have an apartment above the pharmacie in Grignon?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Nuclear_Constabulary
all armed to the teeth and new uniforms, this month.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/friends-hunterston-power-station-worker-6725498
POLICE are investigating claims that Waqqar Ahmed, 22, looked at a bomb-making website on a laptop whilst working at Hunterston B nuclear power station.
M.
Quick post.
“French games” is spot on! and so is ‘malice aforethought’ but who was the malice directed against?. I’m guessing that some kind of OCD type brooding grudge is involved, or at the very least repetitive practice of magazine changes.
As to timer on the camera etc. I think it was mom-in-laws phone, so don’t think it was on a tripod and presumably there was no improvised selfie-stick visible in frame. One has to allow Eric a modicum of competence, and he reportedly was looking for someone who took the picture.
What does surprise me is that Eric has not directed one of his minions to triangulate the exact 3D space position of the camera when the picture was taken. This should give some useful information about their height…
He should already have a 3D ballistic model from Le Martinet parking and someone, surely, will have derived probabilistic bounds on the height of the shooter.
I suspect that they are one and the same person or at the very least the shooter was nearby when the photo was taken and believed that the occupants of the car or the photographer could identify him as such.
Male DNA recovered from the camera phone shutter would be too much to hope for on the competence front.
Do you think that the gendarmes definition of ‘Chevalinois’ is broad enough to include Arnand? I really do hope so!
Pink
Thanks for the links.
The metronews fr version “avoir vu un 4×4 vert ainsi qu’une moto descendre en sens inverse peu avant.” seems most reasonable. The implied order, 4×4 then MC, is the cannonical ‘reversed order’ we are all aware of.
Having said that, LF-R could have seen, across the field behind the Beweek’s house, a 4×4 and a MC going upwards. After all CA apparently did.
I wish we knew when ONF1 and ONF2 went up the combe.
You pays your money and takes your choice.
GIP, the British Coroners Inquest said camera, 18 photos that day, I didn’t mean they used a tripod just that a wall or the car could have been used as the support.
Google al-hill inquest + Mr Travers.
The photographer have thingy was only mentioned after MC had been found and cleared of involvement, same day as the latter revelation, I think. Games, games, games.
If I were Maillaud, I’d play a game of lulling the perpetrator into a false sense of security, you know give them enough rope and they’ll hang themselves sort of mode.
No internet for the next few days, will catch up next week, by the way did you see that from Antoines gates there is a clear view of the Bewicks chalet ?
http://www.leparisien.fr/espace-premium/actu/les-dernieres-heures-de-la-famille-al-hilli-31-12-2013-3450913.php
Grandmas digital camera.
M.
‘Games, games, games.’
It was a mistake to reveal the ‘unfound’ photographer, certainly in the way it was done.
Titbits for his press buddies. Unforced errors. He yaps too much. The UK delegation seem to have understood this. They should not have signed.
And yes, I do understand his role and ‘obligation’ towards the press.
“a wall or the car could have been used as the support.” Sure, either could work, which is why determining the exact position in space that the photo was taken from would be useful.
If it appeared to be taken from a point in the road then image analysis could determine whether the camera was supported by say the BMW estate. I don’t need to remind everyone that it is large and burgandy coloured. It’s prescence would alter the light field in a detectable way.
They have the camera and hence the CCD, lens, compression software etc.
I guess that they have just not followed this through.
“The hypothesis of a sniper hidden in the rocks in the stream or on the other side of the parking lot was mentioned.”
I find this ludicrous, snipers don’t use an old luger handgun and they do not move around a vehicle at close range, what palpable twaddle.
from Wiki
Mollier lead
“It had been suggested that the target of the murders may have been Sylvain Mollier, instead of al-Hilli family. Later reports state that Mollier worked as a welder, without confidential nuclear information (security clearance is unclear), so he was not suspected as a likely target of such a murder”
then
“Friends of Hunterston power station worker Waqqar Ahmed
claim he is completely against terrorism”
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/friends-hunterston-power-station-worker-6725498
It seems to me that although Sylvain Mollier is likely to be completely innocent,
it was a crass mistake ( Eric Maillaud)
from day one or two to say Sylvain was not involved, he was only a passing cyclist.
How could they possibly know, straight away that Sylvain was not involved?
from Wiki
“In September 2012, IN ORDER TO SPEED UP THE INVESTIGATION,
France and Britain agreed to create a joint Franco-British investigation team under Eurojust, which is rarely used in the UK”
If they imagine the investigation is speeded up,
it is lucky they didn’t decide to slow it down.
Can someone explain what this means please ..
“They were on a logical route, according to investigators, and seemed to take their time. The police sought to determine if they were being followed. There is to date no evidence to establish it. Although they had doubts in finding that the telephone relay tags did show the same numbers as the kilometers. It was actually road rolling down the same route as the Al-Hilli.”
Ils étaient sur un itinéraire logique, selon les enquêteurs, et semblaient prendre leur temps. Les gendarmes ont cherché à déterminer s’ils étaient suivis. Rien à ce jour ne permet de l’établir. Même s’ils ont eu des doutes en constatant que les balises de relais de téléphone faisaient apparaître les mêmes numéros au fil des kilomètres. Il s’agissait en fait de routiers qui roulaient sur le même itinéraire que les Al-Hilli.
http://www.leparisien.fr/espace-premium/actu/les-dernieres-heures-de-la-famille-al-hilli-31-12-2013-3450913.php
Did anyone keep a link to Paul Ducher seeing the BMW where was he at the time ?
Pink
Here is my take:-
Même s’ils ont eu des doutes en constatant que les balises de relais de téléphone faisaient apparaître les mêmes numéros au fil des kilomètres.
Though they had doubts, noting that the same (telephone) numbers were appearing on (the logs of) mobile base stations over the journey.
Il s’agissait en fait de routiers qui roulaient sur le même itinéraire que les Al-Hilli.
It was in fact truckers who were following the same itinerary as the Al-Hilli family.
Which in fact makes perfect sense. One often sees a slick of 40 tonne lorries closely following a caravan. Presumably lorry drivers admire and respect caravanners so much that they follow them whenever possible.
Thanks GIP its good that they checked out if they were followed it shows some commitment to the cause .
I have found a comment by Linda on MZT that says Paul Ducher was mucking out his cowsheds when he thinks he saw the BMW I wonder what time he gave I can’t recall hearing about it, there was some early chat about the movement of his cows from pasture along the lines of he had to wait a day so it was probably in one of the reports about the time the photo of said cows appeared .
I can only think of a single reason,
why Eric Maillaud claimed, after a very short time,
that Sylvain Mollier was just a passing cyclist and was not the target.
The reason is:
Eric Maillaud had been told to say that
because Sylvain was involved in FRENCH government special action.
MH
Eric and the Mayor sang from the same hymn sheet the next morning.
However. neither could explain why SM was at the car park NOR did they know why he had tackled the Combe D’Ire on such a cycle.
Isn’t it a tad “odd” that SM was in the “wrong place” ….and yet no one has ever explained “where he was suppose to be” ?
J
“Isn’t it a tad “odd” that SM was in the “wrong place” ….and yet no one has ever explained “where he was suppose to be” ?”
I vaguely remember from the initial reports something about a discussion between SM and TS shortly before the murders (possibly the previous day) in which daddy-in-law had recommended a particular route. The implicit assumption by TS and CS seemed to be that SM was supposed to be following that route but had just ‘gone the wrong way’.
These days it looks like SM just listened and nodded then rode on a route of his own choosing. One which he had ridded before.
However, crucially this report was presumably from before the family had taken advice from the media-savvy uncle because there seemed to be quotes from the family describing in general terms the route that SM had been supposed to take!
So there is some info out there unless it has been edited out of the reports. All I can recall is that it involved mountains, which isn’t much help.
GIP
Interesting, it is the “papa in law” that says “I told him to try this new route”.
That is odd…as SM is 40 plus years old….and is “big” into riding.
He’s also not “new” to the area.
Futher, it is said that SM knows the route he was taking. He has ridden the Combe D’Ire many times.
It is “no shock” that he was (there) in an area he knew.
We can’t speak to SM, so we don’t know if his intention to go there (and at that time) was known. His “papa in law” says “he wasn’t suppose to be there”.
Okay… he’s on the “wrong bike” for the area…but otherwise ?
I can’t see any reason SM wasn’t suppose to be there.
Why was it even reported that “an experienced cyclist” was told by “papa bear” to “go somewhere else” ??
A jump further. Lets say SM actually said “I’m going to xxxxx” (not “the combe D’Ire). And yet he ended up there (by changing his route)
Again, “papa bear’s” comments are out of context. Why mention them ?
It has to revolve around SM.
“Les gendarmes ont à nouveau convoqué les habitants du village cet été, un énième tentative pour faire parler d’éventual témoins.”
Musing on what may have prompted les gendarmes to take gossip about ‘fear of reprisals’ seriously enough to trawl through the village again leads me back to the main breakthrough, namely the discovery of LMC.
He must have been interviewed at length and his statements checked against the statements of the other witnesses. Any inconsistencies revealed should have been resolved.
What if there were something stubborn, that just could not be force fitted ?
What if, as is implied by the media reports, when asked to decend by ONF2 he simply did so, albeit sedately to avoid the potholes.
So, no left turn at the first hairpin, no return to le Martinet parking, no pulling-in and being overtaken by ONF2.
In short nothing, nada, rien, to explain away the cannonical ‘reversed order’ sighting by WBM that we are all aware of.
If you accept WBM’s statement, as I do, then your focus must return to the village people.