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A 404 Error appeared. Previously pay-wall.
EM apparently told TP they were able to investigate thoroughly Mollier because he and the family were only an hours drive away from their base.
That’s a little different to the idea of a ‘local piste’.
Just some points, to put his initial comments into context (because I don’t think they ever stopped looking at the Mollier angle).
The family Mollier/Schutz had their phones tapped for upwards of six months.
Menegaldo was first spoken to in the latter part of 2012. Taken in under GAV in April 2013.
Eric D was arrested February 2014, along with Falcy.
The first two apply directly to Mollier, the third to a ‘local piste’, some gun nut letting rip.
In investigating the Al-Hilli family, they have uncovered such a story, it was obvious they had more to go on, especially as they have an unidentified RHD 4×4 and a mystery vistitor to the campsite to contend with.
Zanni said phones in Switzerland were tapped and only stopped in August 2013. All the time tracking 4,000 mobiles, giving rise to the discovery of LMC, who is French and lives in the general area.
‘All the people that SM ever knew’, they interviewed his ‘first love’… along with another 800 or so people.
The one thing they are sure of is SM and the Al-Hilli family did not know one another.
I suppose you have to start somewhere and as you say the field gets wider and more obtuse when a line of enquiry gives up nothing.
The thing that intrigues me is how did the gunman get away, maybe he didn’t and he was one of the ‘hikers/ramblers/walkers’ evacuated from Les Bauges.
He arrived by car and left on foot, the latter would have taken quite some time and he was most likely still within spotting distance when the Emergency vehicles arrived at the foot of the Combe d’Ire at 16:08.
It took two hours to secure the area completely.
GIP, if you want some info relating to ‘locals’, ask and I’ll see if it possible to answer, without being specific !
Just a taster, after the murder/manslaughter of NCT (I think it will be the latter, the bloke didn’t know she was behind the door when he fired upwards from the stairwell, although armed robbery is still quite some offence), a man who is married to a woman (wow!) commented that his mother-in-law in Arnand had woken to find balaclava wearing intruders in her house, part of which she rents out to tourists.
The daughter wrote about hoping the people caught for the NCT were the same ones who had entered her elderly mothers home.
This event happening before NCT, but I don’t have a date.
GIP & M
By the time I started looking for that article, it had gone 404. So had all the external references advertising it and linking towards it, which means that it was purged from the Internet quite comprehensively. I assume that something in it offended somebody quite badly. If police want to flush out witnesses who have not come forward, they might themselves pose as journalists (which is borderline legal, but legal), but they certainly would not send a bona-fide journalist on a fishing expedition on their behalf. Thus, I am fairly sure that this article was not a police ploy.
Insofar as tapping phones is concerned, you can bet that ZAH and certain people in Sweden also had (or still have) theirs tapped. The funny thing about this is that translation and transcription of those recordings may not even have begun. I am serious. In Germany, there are only a handful of qualified, vetted, court-approved translators for each specific dialect within Mesopotamian Arabic, and they have such a backlog that they must prioritise cases where the statute of limitations is threatening to pass. Thus, it is quite common for the first transcripts only to come in 2+ years after the event, at an absolutely eye-watering cost (€ 600 per hour of audio recording). I don’t think that this situation will be any different in other European countries. Thus, there might still be the odd surprise or two waiting to emerge from those phone taps.
P & M.
Thanks for the replies. My guess was that the ‘planted story’ was to cover the real purpose of the questioning and thus reassure any potential target. As such, assuming I am not talking jive, there may have been ‘genuine’ titbits given as well or other info discovered by the journalist, any one of which may have triggered a writ from a lawyer.
Transcription and translation could be prioritized pretty well by using the phonecall metadata i.e. time, length, call network analysis etc.
There is another large pile of translation work in the form of documents relating to the inheritance dispute ammassed by SAH. Fortunately he apparently kept a large proportion on his PC, so the file metadata from the operating system should give some indication of the relative importance of a particular file to him.
What do you both think about the X5 these days?
GIP, I see no purpose in ONF1 lying about the speeding car, maybe it just wasn’t an X3/X5, the doubt of even the model was thrown into the mix during a radiio interview with Vinneman and Maillaud.
It would be interesting to know if there has been a secret court case,
regarding the shooting
of Nicole Communal-Tournier?
It would also be interesting to understand if LYONMAN knew the Communal-Tournier Family?
M.
I do see a purpose, now anyway. I must say that I didn’t previously but now I think he was, lets say, misled by his colleagues and also misled by the gendarmes.
I think some kind of semi-consensual ‘convergence’ process took place as the various narratives were shaken out to produce a single, consensus, timeline.
There must be a non-explicit target by the gendarmes of getting to a minima in terms of conflicting evidence, both in terms of timing conflicts and descriptive conflicts.
Changes in statements early on are not unusual as witnesses go through the recollection process and it is the responsibility of the gendarmes to enable that process and not lead the witness up the garden path.
EM stated ‘one witness is no witness’ so guess who’s account would be the one shifted ONF2 or ONF1? The pressure to conform to the consensus account must be enormous.
I think that the same pressure was put on WBM but he was more resistant to pressure.
Family stuff to do – more later.
GIP
Agree with that.
And further, I think there was considerable pressure on Martin at the time. That time being, before he “went to press” himself.
Perhaps that is why (one of the reasons) he did so, at that point.
He “seems” to sate….
I saw SM ahead. I registered he was on a racing cycle.
I was passed by a vehicle… I later (*note) believe this was SAH.
A large vehicle passed me coming down the route.
After that, I saw a motorcycle coming down the route.
* It is during the BBC Panorama interview, that he is “virtually led to say” it was SAH (but not in so many words…. or rather, more words, as he only “believes” it to be SAH).
Just because he was a “Check Capt”, doesn’t mean that “everyday, you’re aware of everything going on around you”.
Personally, I believe it was SAH that passed him….and this is because it may have registered “more” if the same vehicle passed him twice (going up and down…and I use the term “registered” and not “observed”).
But…. who knows.
The front end of a vehicle being different than the back end of it, maybe it didn’t log.
Back to the main issue…. the “pressure”.
The French police have a witness that says he saw a BMW X5 (or so) heading up the CdI ….and towards the car park.
Due (possibly) to the timings stated by that witness (and those given by Martin), the French police say “Well… you must have seen it also”.
Think about that.
You are in “direct conflict” with a local French witness.
You either “saw it”. You are lying about “not seeing it”. Or you are saying a “a local, respected, Frenchman” is “……..” (fill in the blank ! “misled”, “lying”, “wasn’t there”, etc, etc, etc).
This is a random link for the photo just to note it, if you look at pic five there is a maroon 4×4 in the field the picture was cropped in some of the stories and you cant see it, I have no special reason to point it out other than there was another maroon car in the area.
http://www.onlinepublishingcompany.info/content/readMore1/complexInfobox/site_news/infobox/elements/template/default/active_id/1247
James, from the statement read to the British Coroners report:
http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/al-hilli-french-alps-murders-ruled-8082588
A statement was also read from cyclist Brett Martin, who found the bodies of the four victims in a parking area after heading out on a bike ride.
He said he recalled seeing a little girl aged around seven collapsing face down in the road and giving out a short cry.
She was covered in blood and he gave her first aid, the inquest heard.
Mr Martin said the engine of the red BMW was revving loudly and its back wheels spinning. He smashed a window to turn off the engine, then discovered the three bodies inside.
He said he could not recall hearing any gunshots when he was cycling up the hill before coming across the scene, or seeing any empty gun cartridges at the location.
He did recall having seen a cyclist, wearing red, white and black, in the distance ahead of him earlier during his ride.
When he found the crime scene he checked the pulse of Mr Mollier on the ground, and moved his body away from the vehicle for fear he would be run over.
“He was about 30cm from the car on the ground,” Mr Martin’s statement said.
During his ascent, Mr Martin had seen the red car pass him, from behind, a short while before a 4×4 and a motorcycle went past in the opposite direction.
Pink, it is Paul Duchers vehicle, often seen parked outside his house, which faces the Bewicks chalet.
MN, highly unlikely on both counts !
GIP, according to Maillaud possibly via Le P, they were aware of the sighting of a RHD 4×4 within hours of the murders.
The MC within 72 hours…. hmmm
A week before the splash on the BBC Crimewatch about a RHD 4×4 Le P were writing about it, only difference was the colour, white.
Early on, the white 4×4 with dark windows was attributed to a witness, presumably Bossy and used at the reconstruction.
Weird linkage.
Al Hilli… Airbus….Galley design…Russian airliner crash…. !
Investigators to “probe” catering staff (the headline goes).
A lot of everything there is being reported, is just speculation. There isn’t enough to know at the moment (rear bulkhead failure, uncontained engine failure, centre fuel tank, cargo door…. and nearly forgot, a bomb).
Which ever is favoured “piste” (and lets face it…. information is thin), an initial “favourite” the media are going for (and oddly, not the American media !) seems to be “a bomb”.
Elaborating on that, some news headlines are going for “a bomb… placed in the rear galley” (And there was I thinking they didn’t serve food on budget airlines… you learn new things everyday !).
This is “spurred on” by the news that the Irish, British and Dutch (so far) are restricting flights to and from “Sharm”.
Now, if SAH had worked as a CAD designer for VW (Group AG !), I’d have had an even better “linkage” to go for !
Tongue in cheek, by the way. I think SAH had worked on the “newer” aircraft and not these 20 year old series (unless he did tail strike repairs with Mollier ????)
M.
Interesting (not massively so) that Martin did not attend the inquest (not that he should) and so didn’t answer any possible questions (if indeed there were any).
Prepared statements, read out to the court….I wish all life was so simple.
I do believe Martin, but I am always amazed at witness statements, especially to the media.
1st interview. “No idea what the make, model or colour it was”
2nd interview. “I believe it was SAH’s BMW”.
3rd statement to the inquest. “It was the red car”
A bit of sea air… and the memory comes on a treat.
J & M. & Pink
Oh yeah WBM was doubtless under severe pressure. Personally, I also believe it was SAH that passed him heading upwards.
Personally I now think that WBM was passed by ONF1 coming down. Note how WBM has stuck to the ‘passed by a 4×4’ line.
The whole ONF1 descent has been ‘pulled’ earlier in time in my view.
To me, his earliest statements were likely the most accurate. He claims he saw a MC at le Martinet parking (ascribed to LMC, but not necessarily), then approx 3 minutes later a RHD BMW with no-one in the passenger seat. Guess who that was? Who was the large vehicle seen by Zainab just before le parking?
They key to understanding his subsequent statements is the need to fit in with the statement of his colleagues and the emergent consensus timeline.
If his whole descent is pulled earlier by say 10-12 minutes he simply cannot have seen SAH !
The subsequent elaboration of his description is just him trying to fit in (hey everybody was doing it!). Every piece of additional info made his sighting less likely to be of SAH. Every. Piece.
I think that the description of the MC also ‘converged’ onto that given by ONF2.
But I’m tired so that can of worms will have to wait till tomorrow.
GIP
…Can o’ worms open !
In we go…. with just one point (and I hope an interesting one).
You say you think WBM was passed by ONF1.
Whereas we have the “Citroen van” introduced.
And nothing said from ONF1′ side.
However….and hitting on that “pressure” thing.
If WBM was passed by ONF1 coming down (and that becomes apparent to all parties in the investigation), then ONF1 “has to speculate” that the BMW X5 only he saw…disappeared “over the hills and faraway”.
If WBM was NOT on the track at the same time as ONF1, then it may well be assumed….it simply drove down the track again and departed the route PRIOR to WBM entering it ! The “simple solution”.
But that is not what is said ! That maybe “the pressure” ?
As you believe… if the vehicle coming down was indeed ONF1, then either WBM is lying (and I doubt that) or ONF1 has to speculate (as he does), the BMW x5 left over the mountains !
The “kicker” is (in such a scenario), I don’t believe a BMW X5 could do that trip…and unseen (directly after the shootings).
Which basically means, I would be in the “I am not sure you saw what you saw, Mr ONF1” camp.
And on that bombshell !
@ M
4 Nov, 2015 – 10:46 pm
It has been said that LYONMAN was tracked down because of his mobile phone being used in the
Commune of Lathuile.
It has been said that LYONMAN came to this area to pursue his pastime of parapente.
The accommodations of L’Ideal might suit a well-off mini-breaker.
Perhaps, even if in the Slaughter of the Horses event,
LYONMAN was just a passing motorcyclist,
it is possible he had previously stayed in accommodations offered by
the family Communal-Tournier.
If it were the case that the entrepreneur from Lyon had stayed at L’Ideal, it is very likely that he would have struck up a passing friendship with Mr.& Mrs. Communal-Tournier.
A friendship might happen because it is possible Mr.Communal-Tournier and LYONMAN
had both played RUGBY.
They were both FRENCH.
They were both well healed entrepreneurs.
All that, apart from anything untoward, which may have linked them.
I wonder which “brief” Mr.Communal-Tournier has engaged to protect his interests.
Perhaps it is Caroline Blanvillian.
Perhaps as they are both from LYON
LYONMAN has also engaged Maitre Caroline Blanvillian
to protect his interests?
There is a PNR van in the garden of Roland D on route du Moulin, the one with the PNR Landover outside in the snowy Streetwise.
Chances are these are the two vehicles of ONF 1 and 2 – the latter confirmed by EM in the Press conference after the arrest of Eric D to be a 4×4.
I’m stuck with the 4×4 seen by ONF1 being the same as the large vehicle seen by WBM, the MC behind it and the ONF 4×4 turning off at the 900metre route leading to Corbett, after hearing MM circulating.
ONF1 was off the Combe before WBM arrived, trailing behind SM, and ONF2 saw none of those ascending.
We still would like to understand what is happening with the 5% of LYONMAN?
Question, not yet answered by the FRENCH Authorities:
was LYONMAN
also the descending motorcylist seen by
William Brett Martin?
J
“If WBM was NOT on the track at the same time as ONF1, then it may well be assumed….it simply drove down the track again and departed the route PRIOR to WBM entering it ! The “simple solution”.”
Simple yes, but the ‘cost’ is that the descent of ONF1 has to start approx 10 minutes before WBM starts his climb from the old mill. There is the need to pull his passing the MC at le Martinet parking earlier by 10 minutes.
“ONF1 “has to speculate” that the BMW X5 only he saw…disappeared “over the hills and faraway”.”
Yes – one hundred percent.
Any initial ‘shift’ caused a cascade of necessary ‘explanations’.
I wonder what was discussed on that phone call between ONF1 and ONF2 on that first evening!
The media coverage (those overhead photos) may also have had the effect of influencing witness statements. If the papers show the victims vehicle and you could not possibly have seen it, then you know exactly what it was that you didn’t see.
M.
“ONF1 was off the Combe before WBM arrived, trailing behind SM, and ONF2 saw none of those ascending.”
The ONF2 claim is that they only saw SM.
So, that would be someone who unfortunately cannot support their statement.
There were two pairs of eyes in that vehicle (unless one hopped out for a stroll) so how did they miss SAH?
His BMW was tucked in tight at the top of the parking, so could have been missed if ONF2 were looking up or down the combe trying to spot LMC.
“the ONF 4×4 turning off at the 900metre route leading to Corbett, after hearing MM circulating.”
I think ‘something like that’ is possible. It does however mean that the WBM/LMC crossing has to be below the turning for the 900m route. Does it make sense that WBM could cover the final 900m in ‘three to five minutes’?
Other options could include pulling over for a minute to see if LMC would try to double back and make another attempt at the col. Or simply waiting for their chum to finish his stroll.
I must admit that it doesn’t really make sense for ONF2 to be directly involved, even if they had by some chance missed seeing SAH and only seen SM, because they had just seen and spoken to a witness (LMC) who could place them at the scene. How could they know that he would not come forward?
So, on balance, I think that ONF2 will somehow pull a rabbit out of a hat and produce “the most convincing explanation ever of how they got down the combe without being seen by WBM”.
If they are persuasive, then one of the apparent LMC sightings by WBM, ONF1 or ONF2 was not actually LMC…
M.
Re that phone call between ONF1 and ONF2 on that first evening
If ‘they’ (presumably the gendarmes) were aware of the sighting of a RHD 4×4 within hours of the murders, were they been informed of this sighting by ONF1? If so did he inform them before his discussion with ONF2 or afterwards?
Why did it take 72 hours for them to become aware of the MC ?
Surely ONF1 would have mentioned it, wouldn’t he? I mean he saw it at the actual scene, didn’t he? Presumably ONF2 weren’t exactly prompt in coming forward.
I seem to remember that ONF1 mentioned the 10 minute gap as being something he learned about on that call.
Pink
Re the maroon 4×4 in the field. Not to mention the the white 4×4 with dark windows.
Indeed, coincidences like that could subconciously influence a witness who frequently came across it. Particularly one who was prone to confabulation under pressure.
Some kind of syncretic 4×4 might emerge, a mix-and-match frankenbrake.
“If” there was only ever one motorcyclist,
after the ONF team had turned LYONMAN down the combe,
then William Brett Martin ascended, passing LYONMAN,
where were the ONF hiding?