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“Their trial detention was the subject of a real debate,”
admitted the prosecutor Eric Maillaud now handling the case,
“it is a difficult issue, because of lack of evidence, much remains still very blurred.”
You don’t say Eric?
http://www.ledauphine.com/haute-savoie/2015/12/29/mort-dans-une-residence-sociale-de-thonon-les-bains-deux-proches-de-la-victime-incarceres
I’d like to suggest they sack Eric Maillaud, he is bloody clueless.
Peter
Re your post on DNA and spent cartridges etc. It strikes me that with modern analytical techniques it should be possible to detect the presence of, or residue from, any disinfectant used to sanitise the items.
The ‘morceau of grip’ being made of wood, a natural porous material, would also seem to be a good place to look.
MN
No need, his days are already numbered. The term limit is coming up.
@ Good In Parts, 29 Dec, 2015 – 6:59 pm
Yes, the “morceau of grip” is a genuine mystery. For the reasons given, I have no problems believing that, even if the killer did not take any special precautions, forensics would not necessarily find any DNA traces on the cartridge cases. That grip is an entirely different matter. Its surface structure is almost like that of a rasp, perfect for abrading and retaining skin traces. As DNA has a half-life of 500+ years, plenty of DNA-bearing gunk should have accumulated within the grip’s crosshatching over the gun’s lifetime.
Thus, it seems that the grip has either been cleansed extremely thoroughly and/or been treated with some substance that would destroy DNA traces. I have asked around: all-purpose gun oils such as Ballistol or WD40 will not destroy DNA. Neither will standard wood-preserving oils such as linseed. Substances intended to weatherproof wood and protect it against mildew are likely to destroy DNA trace evidence, but then such a substance would have to have been applied quite recently. Anyway, you are right, it should be possible to establish what cleaning agent was used, and the results could be quite interesting.
Although the killing weapon may have been scuplusly cleansed prior to the murders, would an experienced assassin wear gloves.
I would have thought the assassin would not wear gloves.
If the assassin di not wear gloves, they could not have failed to leave DNA on the grip?
Re: Mprceau de grip
I hold out for the possibility that the weapon was not a Swiss luger and the pistol grip therefore deliberately dropped in order to muddy waters.
Rationale: The number of rounds and therefore clips needed (3) in a short time, fired with marksman precision does not suggest this old pistol as a suitable selection by the shooter(s) or as being likely capable of the results achieved.
A modified automatic gun like the Czech CZ Scorpion for example, could take the 9×19 parabellum 7.65 bullets, require no reloading, and could be relied upon to fire 21 rounds in quick succession. The Scorpion was talked about by the Police early on and then dropped.
The DNA aspect has been mis-handled from the beginning with the latest laughable keystone cop moment being DNA coming to light after 3 years.
They won’t fire Eric because he has done a great job of non-investigation from start to finish which is the goal.
The latest confusing red herring is suspect Michel Hecht though he seems to have no motive or opportunity. See http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/6835700/Fresh-hope-in-al-Hilli-murder.html
@ Intp1, 4 Jan, 2016 – 1:43 pm
In identifying the pistol as a Luger 1906/29, ballistics will not (only) have relied upon the grip fragment, but more importantly upon such things as hammer, chamber and ejector marks left on the cartridge cases and the rifling pattern impressed upon the bullets. Modifying another type of firearm precisely to mimic those markings would basically involve designing and testing a whole new weapon system and require a lab equipped with a comparison microscope, high-precision CNC milling machines and so forth. Anybody capable of doing that would have been capable of building an untraceable one-off weapon from scratch.
If anything, the shooter might have used a large-capacity “snail” drum magazine with his Luger. Modern replicas of those are available, albeit rare. Likewise, constructing one of those at home would not be beyond the reach of a gifted amateur mechanic. However, I don’t believe that these are fruitful lines of speculation. In my opinion, the key to solving this case is to work out what kind of person combines the traits of good shooting skills, unrestrained aggression, callousness and access to nothing but this type of historic firearm.
If the shootist, scruplessly cleaned the gun first, with the full intention of not leaving any DNA at the slaughter of the horses scene, the plan may have slipped.
In shooting but not killing the al-Hilli child, he then tried to bash in the girls brains and a fragment of grip dislodged.
This was not part of the plan.
It would be remarkable, if the shootist was not wearing gloves that no DNA could be recovered from that grip, this could only be the case if the shootist was wearing gloves.
I would have thought it would be very unlikely that the shootist would be wearing gloves.
So, if the grip piece is genuine and was held in a gloveless hand by the shootist, the DNA must have been intentionally exponged by a police officer or a FRENCH secret service person?
@ Michael Norton, 4 Jan, 2016 – 4:03 pm
I would have thought it would be very unlikely that the shootist would be wearing gloves.
Why should that be so very unlikely? Soldiers, members of SWAT teams and even many competitive shooters wear gloves, sometimes with the tips cut off such that the gloves resemble cycling gloves … In fact, the killer wearing cycling gloves could very well account for the peculiar combination of rapid magazine changes (manual dexterity) and the absence of any DNA traces on the grip fragment.
@Peter 4 Jan, 2016 – 1:43 pm
1) Ballistics – Yes, I agree, that is entirely consistent with my point. The circumstances are consistent with a ‘service’ with some resources and the weapon could have been extensively modified or essentially manufactured in a workshop. Your point about the various ballistics parameters that could be taken into account though brings up another issue, that of our tendency to accept the few things that have been announced as facts.
The ballistics evidence has never been elucidated, That this was a luger as described, beyond reasonable doubt cannot be established by us. The investigators seem to me to be deliberately vague at all times, perhaps so they can adjust their story, discarding previous assertions without accepting any shame from their logically, prior incompetence. e.g. the DNA saga or the withholding of the identikit so that it didn’t spook the shooter.
2) The Drum magazine- I would just like to cite Occam’s Razor. In order to explain the unlikely selection of a 70 year old collectors piece to assassinate 4 people in open country, we grasp at an even rarer piece of kit that when attached, makes execution even more untenable. The drum hangs unbalanced on the pistol, is bigger and weighs more than the gun itself, making it extremely unwieldy for successful performance of the almost perfect multiple ‘double taps and one to the head’ that we are told occurred.
My point is why not just bring the weapon for the job? And my other point is that the various theorist here and elsewhere have built on previous assertions that have low confidence in their likelihoods. The very first of which is the timeline which begins with Bill Martin’s statements, yet there are overwhelming reasons to consider Martin as an involved party, the shooter even. Therefore it is hard to accept but we cannot rely on the many various things we think we know.
@ Intp1, 5 Jan, 2016 – 10:48 am
Have you ever heard of a criminal investigation – anywhere – during which the police put every scrap of evidence they possessed on the table before they had even identified a suspect? I didn’t think so. Thus, it should not come as a surprise that the gendarmerie have not published their ballistics evidence. However, they did consult ballistics experts from the German Federal Police Authority (BKA) in order to help narrow down the production batch of the Luger 1906/29 in question. To my mind, it is unlikely that they would have voluntarily involved external experts if there was anything fishy about the forensic evidence.
In the spirit of Occam’s Razor, I am minded to discard both the drum-magazine suggestion and the notion that somebody had a team of expert gunsmiths modify a completely different weapon system to mimic the ballistic evidence left behind by a Luger 1906/29. As I have argued before, the question to ask then becomes: who would commit such a crime with a 100-year-old pistol? Somebody without the intelligence or organised-crime connections required to procure an equally untraceable modern-day weapon. Somebody who may be ineligible to own a registered firearm due to a string of previous convictions. Perhaps somebody working in a profession that would allow him easily to get hold of such an antique (household clearances, antiques trading, pawn brokerage).
Intp1 & Peter
Essentially I agree with Peter on the Luger ‘issue’
There is some ‘oversight’ of the forensic reports etc. in that Zaid has apparently applied to the court for access to the investigation dossier to be given to his legal team.
I don’t expect any detailed leaks from this source however I think an indication would be given if the gendarmes had been grossly negligent in their evidence handling.
I think that the lawyers representing Sylvain Mollier and family had already been granted access.
There is one aspect to the Luger identification where Intp1 may be on the mark, and that is the ‘Swiss’ part.
Lugers were also manufactured in the UK.
It is not necessarily one of the weapons issued by Swiss authorities (and thus indicative of a local link. It is though, obviously most likely to be of Swiss issue, just not necessarily.
I am encouraged by the involvement of the BKA with respect to resolving the particular batch of manufacture.
As to the timeline, there certainly are issues, which combined with the discovery of LMC caused me to recently revise my thinking on the subject.
And, yes Peter, I too think along the lines of property maintenance/clearance/renovation or such-like as an occupation. He may wear many hats, an odd-job man perhaps?
Good in Parts & Peter
Unless a particular theory can be disproved or proved, beyond reasonable doubt it doesn’t really matter who any of us agree with, or not because we just don’t know. I agree that some aspects of the crime suggest a local nut and maybe it was, but there are many things that are unexplained or are multiple coincidences if that is true.
e.g.
Why did William Brett Martin receive special treatment by the French authorities? i.e. he was allowed to leave the country within 48 hours, before forensic evidence could be processed even though: he was found at the scene within minutes of the crime, he had drastically interfered with the crime scene including the victims and the vehicle.
Why was he immediately briefed to the press, who obediently ran it, as being an RAF hero? He hadn’t been in the RAF for many years, his actions weren’t particularly heroic. He also changed his story of the timeline and vehicles
He gave a strange interview on the BBC in what looked like stressful and in controlled conditions
Other coincidences – he was in the same cycling club as SM,
His company, Silver Fern is registered by and registered address was the same as: investigation/security and companies with Ex SAS owners.
Why would a local odd job man have additional vehicle support i.e the SUV and at least one, possibly 2 motorcycles?
Why would the Asst Head of Mission, a very important managerial post, effectively chief of staff of the Embassy, (who was part of FO contingent managing the David Kelly affair) and a large group of foreign office/”military type” personnel have been urgently despatched to the scene that very night?
Could it really be coincidence that a previous husband of Iqbal died the same day in the US?
Is it really a coincidence that both the Al Hilli and Al Saffar families have senior diplomatic and clerical family and connections, and that Khadims brother was imprisoned and tortured by the Saddam regime before being suddenly released and Khadim allowed to leave Iraq.
Why was the funeral of SAH reported to have been paid for by the Iraqi Govt?
Is it also a coincidence that both SAH & SM were connected to high tech, defense, aerospace or nuclear companies?
Why have the French authorities been unsuccessful and on the face of it, inept from start to finish and the Sussex police have shown little interest either?
You could come up with possible innocent reasons for all these but it’s awfully hard work, unless you are getting paid well to do so?
It’s so obviously WBM.
Intp1
It would indeed be awfully hard work, and I’m not getting paid at all, nevermind well. Luckily I am mildly obsessed with bringing the killer to justice in this case.
You noted “Silver Fern is registered by and registered address was the same as: investigation/security and companies with Ex SAS owners.”
Here is a coincidence for you, I used to go shooting in the underground range on the square immediately behind that very address. Spooky eh? But total coincidence nevertheless.
@ Intp1, 5 Jan, 2016 – 10:42 pm
Many of the factoids that you list are either known untruths (e. g., neither WBM nor SM were members of that cycling club) or unsubstantiated speculations (e. g., the Al Saffars and Al Hillis having senior political and clerical connections). Refuting the factual claims amongst them would not be difficult, let alone awfully hard work, but then we have covered all of this many times already.
Why have the French authorities been unsuccessful and on the face of it, inept from start to finish and the Sussex police have shown little interest either?
That is because police generally tend to be inept from start to finish. For instance, you may recall the case of the German NSU neo-Nazi terrorist cell. Somebody has leaked (most of) the original investigation files and put them online:
http://nsu-leaks.freeforums.net/thread/362/original-akten-vom-server-putinland
In view of all the glaring errors, breaches of police standard operating procedures, non-sequiturs, omissions, witless conclusions and so forth contained within these files, many people smell a conspiracy. After all, this was undoubtedly the most important criminal case in post-WWII Germany; unlimited resources were allocated to solving it. Yet, as one very senior police officer rather disarmingly put it: “This is not a cover-up. This is what you get when you let police do their thing.”
Judging from the little experience I have had observing criminal investigations up close, I tend to believe him. The police are great when it comes to stacking up evidence against a known suspect, making it all fit together neatly, even if they have to leave out some bits and twist some others. Yet when they start from zero, without any obvious motives and/or suspects, they often flounder helplessly – which they don’t like to be seen doing. I would bet that, if Eric Clouseau had his way, he would like nothing better than to let ZAH off the hook with the equivalent of a Scottish “not proven” verdict and close the case.
I did not know that William Brett Martin and Sylvain Mollier were both in the same cycling club/gang
but more to the point –
did they know each other?
Did William Brett Martin know Saad al-Hilli.
How amazing that a close neighbour of W.B.M. was the killed Nicole?
How amazing tight the timeline is for all the people up the combe
at the same time as the Slaughter of the Horses event did not see or hear each other, where they all wearing secret service blindfolds?
Intp1
You posed the question “Could it really be coincidence that a previous husband of Iqbal died the same day in the US?”
That is the ‘coincidence’ in this case that is the most disturbing to me. Particularly if there is any truth in the reports from relatives that JT himself had told them that there had been an attempt on his life in the days immediately prior to his death (apparently a staged accident whilst he was out on his Harley ).
If his death were murder, we are in a different world.
@Good In Parts 6 Jan, 2016 – 5:37 pm
Doing a little bit of research on average actuary odds and using UN figures for murder rates, the rough odds of two people (like two thrown dice) separating and coincidently one being murdered and the other dying (for any reason) on the same day are roughly 1 in 10 billion or to express it another way, you could be approximately 99.99999999% certain that it would not occur randomly.
Statisticians – hold your fire, do your own work if you want, these are my rough figures.
http://www.levergerfleuri.fr/en/
The Daily Express seems to indicate that the community of 900-1,000 souls
of Lathuile/Lathille is intimately intertwined with the goings on of the mass shooting up the nearby combe.
William Brett Martin holiday house is within spitting distance of a campsite, the owner/manager of which is also the owner/manager of Le Flashback ( adjacent to the cycle track and parapente oppotunities),
most amazingly, a week after the E-FIT-SKETCH of the biker ( wanted for being the shootist)
a close neighbour of W.B.M. is shot dead in her abode?
Two other suspects also have homes/family connections in this community, Jean-Luc Falcy and Eric Devouassoux, the now found but as yet unnamed biker was said to have used his mobile phone/laptop in the commune of Lathuile about the time of the Slaughter of the Horses.
Local people are afraid of being rubbed out.
Example Nichola Mollier-Thomas?
This is no ancient lone nutter.
Nicholas
MN, Mollier did not belong to a cycling club.
The ‘Martin knew Mollier’ ERROR came about because of a mistranslation on this and another blog, it was along the lines of ‘Martin recognised Mollier from his cycling shirt/short colours’.
The real wording was he ‘recognised Mollier from the cycling shirt/short colours as the man who had passed him earlier’. Big difference, isn’t it ?
Read up you’ll find the grip left an imprint on Zainab when she was struck.
Even the then Detective in Surrey says the only thing they are sure of is it was an old Luger.
If you have accessed the Facebook Pages of JT’s family, you would see there was speculation about whether he’d been murdered during that fateful September 2012, ‘why would anyone want to murder Uncle Jimmy’ or such, I can’t be bothered to go back over that.
This was apparently months before his family were told about Iqbals death, afterall they knew her as Kelly, they may never have known her by Al-Hilli and it was many months before her photo was released to the Press by James Mathews.
Did I read somewhere of JT’s family writing a book ? Money grabbing, but that is par for the course.
GIP, always remember Maillaud says ZAH remains a person of interest and can be re-arrested at anytime, this is a long game being played.
The Lathuile death is not connected, it was not a deliberate act of murder, the SHOTGUN was fired at a closed door.
I look forward to reports from the Court Case when it eventually gets a slot to be processed.
Bonne Année à tous.
M.
I do not doubt you with respect to club membership . . . but then the question arises (in my mind anyway) as to why he was wearing the club strip.
That is if he were actually wearing their strip, which from memory had one red sleeve. I could easily be mistaken.
The kit could be old, maybe a favourite shirt from a time when he was a member (if he ever was), because he surely could afford the fancy lycra numbers popular these days.
He could also have entered the occasional open event and have been sold a shirt as part of their fundraising efforts.
Or, what?
This is probably of no significance whatsoever, unless it contributed to a case of mistaken identity. I guess velo clubs are not generally much given to violence for ‘disrespecting their colors’, as may be the case with certain motorcycle clubs. So it would have to be personal.
Presumably le gendarmes traced all the buyers of such tops and checked if their cycles were white, expensive, jobs. Doubtless they were then asked whether anyone held a murderous grudge against them.
As you note, this is a long game being played. Maillaud however, may not be around for the denouement.
It’s good to see some new discussion here. I’d like to know where JT was during the Vietnam war years (and beyond, of course). Seems he was a “contractor”, and all the British journos who went to his home town left it at that. There are contractors who take out old toilets, and contractors who work for the military. These are very different things, but I guess it didn’t matter either way to those tabloid types.
Interestingly, JT’s home town has ties to France, dating way back.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natchez,_Mississippi
Natchez has a strange bit of history during the Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s, too. I’m sure if you lived there, you were in the thick of things, like it or not. That town must have a lot of secrets that were taken to the grave by many people.
From Wiki:
“Bill Williams, an FBI agent in Natchez for two years during that time, said in a 2005 interview that the “race wars in the area are ‘a story never told,’ that Natchez in 1964 had become the ‘focal point for racial, anti-civil rights activity for the state for the next several years’.” Murders of four other African-American men in this area in 1964 are attributed to Klan members. Other Klan murders of activists followed in succeeding years, undeterred by congressional passage of civil rights legislation.”
A car bombs, bodies of activists found in the river, the KKK: Natchez had it all.
It seems an odd place for a member of any racial or religious minority to want to settle. History doesn’t go away, it just goes deeper.
Good ole boys are always good ole boys.
More insight into the mindset of the people of Natchez in the early 1960s.
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=2826605&page=1
Those directly involved could still be alive, as well as their sons and daughters.
People who know things are still afraid to talk. Sounds a bit like Chevaline 2012.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2689398/Was-Alps-massacre-wife-REAL-target-This-week-emerged-secret-husband-died-SAME-DAY-murdered-Now-Mails-uncovered-drastic-new-evidence.html
I don’t know what they’re talking about. Marrero, LA is not four hours from New Orleans. It’s part of the New Orleans metropolitan area. It is also one hour away from the John C. Ennis Space Center in Mississippi, in case it matters.
Stennis:
https://www.nasa.gov/centers/stennis/home/
It’s only 30 minutes from Marrero to NASA’s Michoud Assembly Facility.
GIP, he wasn’t wearing any club strip …… not any that I could find and certainly not current or older ”d’Ugine’, I tried other clubs in the region as well.
“Si Sylvain Mollier n’était pas licencié au cyclo club d’Ugine, le président du club, Michel Perrier le connaissait cependant comme « un bon amateur ». Deux ou trois fois par semaines, Sylvain sortait le « cuissard » pour enfourcher son cadre. « Il était très soucieux de sa forme et on voyait qu’il était affûté et ne se laissait pas aller », raconte un compagnon d’atelier. “