The previous thread was overloading WordPress due to the number of comments. This thread has been opened to replace it.
Allowed HTML - you can use:
<a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <s> <strike> <strong>
Chakib Akrouh, a 25-year-old of Moroccan origin born in BELGIUM
http://www.france24.com/en/20160114-suicide-bomber-post-paris-attacks-raid-identified-saint-denis-chakib-akrouh
Belgium does seem to be a vipers nest.
@Q
The thing is, I could never “tie in” the “Balkan looking man” (as described by the eyewitness at the campsite).
Was the eye witness confused or correct ?
If correct, then why hasn’t this man come forward (he clearly knew SAH) ?
What was the disagreement about ?
Then we have the fact that “this disagreement” was seen AND noted.
If there had been a plan, hatched by SAH, to kill his wife (and now, to include his mother-in-law)….
….SAH would face questions. One of which would be “Who were you having an argument with at the campsite”.
It was SAH who drove to that area. And it was he who drove up the Combe D’Ire at that precise time.
The same could be said of Mollier also.
But Mollier’s ex partner didn’t die thousands of miles away… on that exact day.
The sheer organisation (and risk) in organising two (or three) murders, on the same day….and to “not leave a trace of any communication whatsoever” would be impossible, wouldn’t it ?
And then there is the issue that, SAH was escaping the scene (with his wife and mother-in-law alive) when he became stuck…and the killer approached to kill them.
There’s also the “small matter” of his youngest daughter, still being inside the car (and I assume seated in a “baby seat”) seated between the two women. Would you really “organise a hit”, that could possibly take the life of your daughter ?
If the killer “had changed his mind” and decided to kill the whole family, then that would answer the question “Why take so much ammunition along”.
And possibly, “Why attack SAH in the initial burst of gunfire”.
Who knows !
Will we ever know “what went on at the Combe D’Ire” ???
from M’s BBC piece of a couple of years ago
“FRENCH Police, however, said Mr al-Hilli was still their main suspect.”
Do you know M
is he still the main suspect?
James, the ‘Balkan looking man’ was at the first campsite, said to have been an Italian tourist (capmsite owner).
The ‘animated’ conversation took place at the second campsite.
TP’s book muddled this up.
There was no second child seat in the car, that is why they didn’t know about the little one until they were informed by neighbouring tourists at the campsite.
Zainab was on a booster seat in the front.
MN, in TP’s book Maillaud says not, apparently disagreeing with some of the investigating team.
M.
You are right, that was pretty formulaic !
I stand corrected.
GIP, I have a good memory, it can be an awful thing to live with at times !
I changed my view regarding who were the likely targets, if any, after reading the British Coroners Inquest reports.
Saad 4 bullets (one in the torso, probably received outside the car)
Iqbal 4 bullets (all in the car)
Suhaila 3 bullets (all in the car)
This surely means the gunman, if using ordinary mags loaded with 7/8 bullets changed at least one midway, if the only target was Mollier, why do that ?
The investigating team appear to know that he moved from side to side of the vehicle. I do wonder if a bullet hit the rear drivers side passenger (Suhaila) in the first volley, the rest appear to be all around the trapped car.
Bacchus, trying to understand ‘Quyresh’.
@M
Too many coincidences kill the coincidence !
“Zainab, oldest daughter of the prophet, was wounded by Qureysh during migration to Medina, suffered greatly from the wound, to death in the eighth year of the Hijra”.
M.
Because, the mother of all coincidences, the shooter could be identified by SAH and his family!
Maybe the shooter was hanging around the Chevaline area waiting for SM to show up (maybe after leapfrogging SM via the main road that runs parallel to the cycle track). He parks up at say Arnand and pretends to be using a mobile phone.
A party of tourists walk by and despite him staring studiously at his phone they pester him to take a photo. Though annoyed, he is not seriously concerned, ‘Just tourists passing through – they won’t remember anything’ he tells himself.
Later, after coming round the hairpin – there is SM right on schedule – ‘Oh La La! WTF are they doing up here?’
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2012/09/not-forgetting-the-al-hillis-continued/comment-page-25/#comment-559425
M.
Or instead, maybe he could be recognised from the campsite, either as staff or a camper.
A bullet from the first magazine certainly hit something made of glass. Remember the fragments of glass found at the top of the parking lot? That would mean it was fired before the reverse turn and could easily have hit Suhaila.
Michael Norton
Good scenario. Plus, there is no need to return to the pillions motorcycle, simply bring along an extra helmet in the topbox.
The culvert also seems like a good place for the pillion to hide.
PARIS Jan 6 (Reuters) – FRENCH utility EDF is considering selling assets worth over
six billion euros this year, Les Echos reported on Wednesday.
EDF is notably considering selling stakes in its eight BRITISH nuclear plants to fund plans to build two European Pressurised Reactors (EPR) in Hinkley Point, Britain, Les Echos said, without citing its sources.
The company has written over 6 billion euros of divestitures in its 2016 budget.
http://af.reuters.com/article/commoditiesNews/idAFL8N14Q1LP20160106?sp=true
I still think Sylvain Mollier and at least one of the al-Hillis were the target.
EDF declined to comment.
The company needs 55 billion euros to upgrade its ageing nuclear plants, plans to invest 18 billion pounds ($26.37 billion) in Hinkley Point and spend several billion euros to buy Areva’s reactor unit.
The declining fortunes of the FRENCH Nuclear industries must have been obvious at the time of the Slaughter of the Horses.
GIP
The killer…was the photographer ?
That’s IF a photographer was used to take a photograph of ALL the family, as one group. And that, we don’t know.
I suppose the “two parties” were killed for a reason.
Was that reason either party “could” identify/provide detail about the killer.
Meaning either by the fact…
1. “that they were at the Combe D’Ire and witnesses the murder”
2. OR “had prior contact/knowledge of the killer”.
The “amount of ammunition taken” and the “amount of ammunition used”, is so bewildering.
Two (seemingly) unrelated groups of victims (I do believe they were unrelated).
The fact he resorted to “clubbing” the eldest daughter…. had he ran out of bullets ?
The “unseen” escape.
All amazing when viewed as a “whole”.
You can see why the “Lone Nut” is still a “favoured” piste.
GIP, one or two shots, to disable, I would go along with, your ‘Or instead, maybe he could be recognised from the campsite, either as staff or a camper.’
Well that certainly rules out Mollier as target, I like that, how easy would it be to assess the many staff and campers who were able to do such a massacre with a P06 Luger and a vengeance to follow their prey, regardless of sex or age and kill them, and harm a child ?
Caravanners are just posh campers, they don’t like to get dirty, they are the ‘right on’ sort of greens, without actually being green at all !
Liars:
Sylvain Mollier – giving the impression he’d never been up the Combe before (Uncle Fernand, via M6, he liked to cycle in the shade/cool valley)
Zaid Al-Hilli – he was not in dispute with is brother ……
Anyone else lying, maybe ONF2 and LMC passing SAH on the road to Chevaline, as the BMW drove upwards.
If they truly, truly didn’t then their passage was before SAH started that climb and WBM saw a scooter.
GIP, I’ll correct that, ‘someone at the campsite’, the mystery man.
He spent a good half an hour with SAH in an animated conversation, he had real contact with SAH, why hasn’t he presented himself ?
Maybe another frog who doesn’t want to get involved ?
If anyone was interested in my ramblings about ‘bullet time’ and the possibility that WBM had undergone ‘overclocked’ fast jet simulator training thus distorting his ‘personal time sense’ (and thus reported timings)- here are a couple of references I came across by chance since then. I must be primed to spot them!
The following link notes that R. Feynman “experimented with personal time sense”, (search for the quoted phase on the web page.
http://amasci.com/news.html
The next link is to an excellent photo gallery of a jet crashing in a pre-airshow practice session. Check out the narrative by the photographer “It is amazing how slow motion everthing was”.
http://www.aerophotointernational.com/crash2010.htm
Pink – I think you had a similar experience.
James & M.
James, glad you’re back.
Good point, well made. But we were told by EM that the investigators actually were searching for one. The gendarmerie photo-analysts must know what they are doing, surely?
The ‘photographer as killer’ was an exemplar of someone unknown who had interacted with SAH and party prior to their drive up the combe. In fact (assuming EM was not confabulating) possibly the last such person to do so.
There could easily have been others at another of their stops for photographs.
However anyone at, or near, Arnand could have seen SAH approach the village from the direction of the combe (if the builders are to be believed) then get out and have a walkabout. They probably would not think it likely that SAH would reverse direction and go back up to Le Martinet parking.
Sure, it would be a coincidence but apparently there is a file full to the brim with them already, one more won’t destroy causality.
As to being recognised and thus inevitably being apprehended. There would have to be something obvious that a tourist, even a young child could perceive. Faverges Casual Crew gang-tatoos perhaps.
M.
OK, you are right, the campers don’t fit the profile.
As target of, say, a disturbed and obsessive campsite worker? Low paid part-time seasonal work, scraping to get by, sees that work-shy seducterising piece of work who wrecked his marriage swanning around on a velo worth more than his net worth all paid for by rant rant rant (you get the picture).
Campsite workers involved in actual murderous assaults does sound a little farfetched, I suppose.
Respectfully, I disagree. After he opened fire the killer had to go all-in.
M.
Thanks for posting your views on caught-out-liars.
I’m pretty sympa towards Zaid but I have to agree. Assuming he is innocent in this matter, I’d say ‘Arab Pride’.
Yes, on my localist journey, I have become more suspicious of ONF2. There were two of them, yet they apparently didn’t
see things they should have seen.
At a stretch one could also view the distinctive helmet they described as, if not a lie then, disinformation.
I would add that, in my timeline at least, LMC and/or ONF2 should have crossed Bossi & co.
LMC crossing Bossy, yes, if the timings are to be believed, ONF2 could have turned off at the 900 metre track to end up to the rear of route du Moulin.
I wonder who ‘saw’ the trial MC that was ‘mis hors cause’ ? MM says he only decided to leave the area when he heard the sirens, the first vehicles arrived at the ‘Dangerous Road’ sign about 16:08 according to one of the docus.
“Un autre jeune pilote de moto trial aperçu le jour du drame dans les environs de Chevaline a, lui, été retrouvé depuis. Il s’agit d’un adolescent qui pilotait son engin dans la zone de réserve de chasse du massif des Bauges et qui a été mis hors de cause.”
http://www.leparisien.fr/faits-divers/tuerie-de-chevaline-la-mysterieuse-moto-aux-grandes-sacoches-18-10-2012-2243921.php
I’m of the opinion that WBM saw the trial MC, not LMC, he’d sped off earlier, it would account for the differing descriptions of the MC, which gave rise to Maillaud saying the style of MC doesn’t exist.
Gunman left on foot, arrived in the RHD 4×4, (appeal was for occupants).
Such a pity they don’t release more details of the campsite visitor, there were many witnesses.
M.
Indeed, you suggested this a while ago and I shamelessly incorporated it into an alternate timeline. It was pretty much the only way to avoid the ONF2 pair being blind, forgetful or involved.
How about M. Antoine, who apparently saw a car and two mobylettes.
I would really, really, like to know the timing and order of his sightings.
Are you sure “he’d sped off earlier” and wasn’t still around somewhere? Because if EM was accurate when he stated that LMC simply rode down the combe after his ticking off, then “earlier” must mean that LMC exited the combe (ie passed the old sawmill) before WBM entered the combe.
That constraint seems incompatible with the time slot claimed by ONF2 for their coming across LMC and shooing him down-combe.
@ M., 15 Jan, 2016 – 8:55 pm
Do you happen to recall any article or other news item where the name(s) of the witness(es) who saw the “suit man” were given? I have tried to find such news items, but it was never made clear whether the Dutch campers mentioned were also the ones who had seen the suit man.
I think it might be an idea to contact witnesses who saw the suit man and ask them a few questions, e. g., whether they were asked to help compose an e-fit of this person, whether they were instructed not to talk to the press etc.
@GIP
“the mother of all coincidences” is :
SM was the friend of the gunman !
Bacchus
Yeah, it works either way.
By the way, thanks for your post linking to the Luger model listing.
LMC says he was on the Combe, around 15:00 according to TP and other Press reports.
Early on Liberation stated ONF (now known as ONF2) shooed him away around 15:15.
It is a problem with the approximates.
Realistically, if ONF1 saw both LMC and 4×4 at 15:15 then WBM should have seen both go back down. I don’t buy into the 4×4 going over the hill and far away.
Peter, the Dutch couple were in the first campsite, although since SAH only arrived late Saturday and left at 9am Monday, there was only one full day, they didn’t see Iqbal or Zeena.
http://www.itv.com/news/update/2012-09-11/dutch-tourists-speak-of-al-hilli-familys-french-campsite-stay/
Peter, this one is interesting
http://www.ledauphine.com/haute-savoie/2012/09/11/la-famille-avait-passe-deux-nuits-dans-un-autre-camping
We know there was a least one shootist.
We know there was at least one motorcycle.
We know there were at least 25 bullets.
We assume there were multiple targets.
If the shootist was entirely acting alone, (and was not LMC or another motorcyclist)
killing random people, he must have walked to and from the killing site,
hoping for multiple targets – not inconceivable
but the shootist would have to be quite local.
If this is what happened, you would have thought that the two and a half thousand locals, would have all been profiled in the course of three years
and the killer would now be languishing in custody.
One obvious solution would be for the 95% exonerated LMC to be the killers accomplice.
LMC could have dropped off the shootist at the killing site,
that would not make him the shootist but he would be involved.
If it was not LMC who dropped off the shootist,
then it was a different accomplice?
If the shootist had an accomplace
So, one possibility is a very local nutter killing entirely on his own, walking to and from the killing site.
However if that were the case, you would have thought that person would now be banged up in the Loony Bin.
Next option is for the shootist to be less local and to be working with an accomplice,
most likely with the accomplice dropping off the shootist at the killing site, then letting the shootist know when the targets were coming?
If the second option,
then it would seem to be the case that all should die.
@MN
There are only one option.
The vengeance of Qureyshs.
http://saintebible.com/deuteronomy/19-21.htm
The muslims understand the TCK message.
TCK is a retalition of many things at same time.
SAH US servers intrusions and Itamar
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuerie_d%27Itamar
What better proof of Qureyshs forces :
http://www.ledauphine.com/drome/2016/01/15/perquisitions-administratives-un-homme-condamne-pour-detentention-d-armes
versus
“trafic d’armes en bande organisé”
http://www.latribunerepublicaine.fr/Actualite/Faits_Divers/article_1807186.shtml