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8,055 thoughts on “Not Forgetting the al-Hillis continued”

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  • Reply ↓
    Trowbridge H. Ford

    Too bad the al-Hillis weren’t French, and owned a hotel along the Cote d’Azur, like Jacqueline Veyrac who owns the Grand Hotel in Brougham’s Cannes, and whose kidnapping was solved pronto by French police!

  • Reply ↓
    Good In Parts

    Michael Norton

    In order to ‘return’ to the scene, they would need to be proficient with the tools, assuming they have access to the data that is.

    https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2012/09/not-forgetting-the-al-hillis-continued/comment-page-190/#comment-578377

    Even now, a legend is being born … the day the man from paris came … they say, in his hand he held a staff … rays of blood-red light played across le forêt … and the fools that peeked at this witchery were struck blind.

    The man never returned.

  • Reply ↓
    michael norton

    November 13 2016
    Abaaoud was the coordinator,
    Abdeslam, the assembler of the commando.
    http://www.ledauphine.com/france-monde/2016/11/12/abaaoud-etait-le-coordinateur-abdeslam-l-assembleur-du-commando
    Abaaoud “coordinator on the ground”, a “scout” sent from SYRIA IN THE FLOW OF MIGRANTS
    and Abdeslam “assembler of the commando”: a center of study retraced the manufacture and the trajectory of the cell responsible for the Paris attacks of 13 November.

    One of the greatest moves for peace that President Donald Trump can pull off, is to back off from the Middle East, especially SYRIA and let the Syrians and the Russians
    sort it.
    Soon, the flow of migrants will desist.

  • Reply ↓
    Good In Parts

    Was the baby thrown out with the bathwater ?

    When the gendarmerie finally tracked down LMC and excluded him (95%) from consideration, they were then able to reverse the ‘ONF swap’ and determine a more reasonable order of events and timeline.

    I guess that most observers and gendarmes now think that ONF1 saw SAH in his BMW rather than the putative X5. I also guess that they now think that ONF saw TBR at Le Martinet parking, if indeed he saw anyone there at all, as he passed through.

    I guess that ONF1’s stock is so low that his testimony is effectively discounted.

    If my guesses are correct, there is a small possibility that ONF1’s detailed report of a stationary MC at Le Martinet parking is more accurate than his report of the BMW.

    After all, in his public account, TBR did not claim to have seen ONF1 at Le Martinet parking. Wise beyond his years, he claimed that during his sojurn in le forêt he ‘didn’t see nothing’ and I guess that he stuck to that mantra.

    Thus when the hapless Eric claimed that ‘all vehicles are identified’, that may not have included a discounted sighting of an MC by ONF1.

    It’s low probability, but worth a look.

  • Reply ↓
    Shelock

    Hi guys,

    look, what I’ve just found: News from Max (deadzone.61)
    He found words on how it might have happened in his sense.
    Well – at least to me it sounds “almost” perfect, wouldn’t there be the forgotten fact that Mr. X was (over) loaded with munition to be filled in his old Luger. Hm… ???
    That wouldn’t be the case, just to throw SM in the ‘river’, would it?

    • Reply ↓
      michael norton

      I believe they are referring to the “mother-in-law” of the dead Sylvain Mollier, the grandmother of the small child of Claire & Sylvain
      the mother of Claire Schutz, the wife of Thierry, the sister & business partner of Pierre Morange

      I hope that clears up some of your confusion?

  • Reply ↓
    Good In Parts

    Shelock

    Glad you dropped by, thanks for the link.

    Overall, given that I went local(*) post LMC, I cannot argue with Max’s proposed motive, although I am not a granny theorist.

    On first reading, there are a few issues, which may have the benefit of making the scenario falsifiable. One would be SM going into, then out of, the riverbed.

    Since SM was almost certainly wearing cleats, they would pick up mud and grass from the verge between the road and the riverbed. In addition, the distinct marks made in the verge would be easily resolvable from the laser scanning.

    Neither have been reported by les gendarmes.

    * My most likely motive right now is some kind of ‘wider family feud’. Next most likely is a conflict based around work and ‘three years cycling leave’.

  • Reply ↓
    michael norton

    So,
    Eric Maillaud has split the crazy scene.
    David Cameron has split the crazy scene.
    However Francois Hollands is still in harness.

    But Francois is also going to split the crazy scene.

    Is there anyone left who cares to put pressure on those purporting to be investigating this slaughter?

  • Reply ↓
    michael norton

    L’enquête se poursuit après le crash d’un avion de tourisme contre le mont Trélod. « Des expertises sont nécessaires pour déterminer les causes de l’accident. Ce sera long », confie Thierry Dran, procureur de la République de Chambéry.

    Les deux victimes ont été identifiées formellement. Il s’agit de deux Allemands de 51 et 49 ans. « Le pilote avait de l’expérience et l’autopsie n’a rien révélé d’anormal », précise le procureur.

    Le TB 20 avait décollé de Dortmund en Allemagne le 25 novembre en direction d’Albertville. Il avait disparu des signaux radars vers 16 h 30.
    http://www.ledauphine.com/faits-divers/2016/12/01/les-victimes-avaient-51-et-49-ans

    So my question is: Upper Savoie “might” have confirmed that Véronique Denizot is the new prosecutor of Annecy,
    this tragedy shows that Thierry Dan is the prosecutor of Chambery,
    as there are many cross-overs in “The Slaughter of the Horses” Haute-Savoie – Savoie

    do the prosecutors “assist” each other or are they non-talking?

  • Reply ↓
    Good In Parts

    Deux Mobylettes…

    Claude Antoine, having spent “32 ans dans la police”, surely must be able to identify a mobylette when he sees one. Or indeed two as he claimed.

    We all know who one of them was, but what about the other one ?

    Remember that LMC apparently was, shall we say, ‘hefty’. I seem to remember him being described as ‘corpulent’ and his intent was to ride over the Col de Chérel. His motorcycle was (rhetorically) compared to a Harley by ED.

    He wasn’t riding the other mobylette then.

    So, who was?

    • Reply ↓
      Good In Parts

      Bacchus

      Interesting find.

      Large scale DNA testing could resolve this case, starting with the gendarmes themselves and working through certain regiments…

      Unfortunately the gendarmes themselves are assets of the defence ministry. So, it ain’t never gonna happen.

      Le proc, or more properly ‘la’ proc, is not going to alienate her minions. She doesn’t want to have an unfortunate hunting accident whilst out hill walking.

      In case anyone is thinking to themselves that all the gendarmes will already have had their DNA profile taken and put on file for identification and evidential protection purposes, they had better re-think their assumptions. The previous proc had to order approx 100 gendarmes to be tested during the cartridge case DNA cockup.

      The DNA found did indeed turn out to be from evidence mis-handling by a gendarme.

      • Reply ↓
        michael norton

        Has the new woman actually officially taken over.
        If she has, is she actually attempting to solve The Slaughter of the Horses
        killings?
        Is she going to give the Schutz-Morange family a proper going over?

  • Reply ↓
    Good In Parts

    James

    If you are still around, this is right up your street… Re-reading Parry and pondering on my ‘wider family feud’ scenario I remembered My Perfect Cousin.

    Now, I had the mis-fortune to have a ringside seat when a ‘goodie-two-shoes’ went off the rails and was found to have feet of clay.

    The fall from grace was vertiginous, straight down to the mud, as in ‘dragging our good name through the mud’. Call it backlash or blowback or whatever, the level of bile was off the scale. No realisation that they were merely human and fallible like the rest of us. Not to mention that they hadn’t asked to be put on a pedestal in the first place.

    So, the ‘perfect cousin’ or ‘fortunate son’ or indeed ‘jammy dodger’ better keep their balance, because if their slip blows back on the family. . .

    • Reply ↓
      michael norton

      Bernard Cazeneuve has been a senor minister throughout the Hollande administration, the last two years, throughout the TERROR he has been minister of the interior, he is now Prime minister.
      Theresa May was Home Secretary throughout the administration of Cameron and is now Prime minister of the U.K.
      So both these extremely influential politicians have been close to the helm or at the helm in the time span covering the Slaughter of the Horses.

      So perhaps they could have a chat and get things moving with the “Investigation”
      ???

  • Reply ↓
    intp1

    Re. The scenario at deadzone. I don’t want to knock it, I think all such ideas and brainstorms are useful but here is why I think it has too much against it:
    OK, the campsite visitor, could have been anybody. All the Al Hilli baggage, from the father’s history and bank account, to SAH’s security related job and the odd, seemingly impulsive timing of their trip. WBM was obviously protected and UK security connected and allowed to exit stage left, but it is not unusual for sensitive scientists/engineers to have minders with them. I used to race sailboats with one who’s minder had to learn to sail and was crew, automatic pistol on board and all. But If your plan was to hold up SM and force him to submit to a suiciding, would you bring 3 clips with you? Maybe, if you were a complete military anorak and maybe that could also explain the high accuracy % of the shots fired.
    Would you really need to kill all the family? maybe you might think you did. Would you though, if you were with your precious daughter leave her outside the car as you attempted to escape? I think that Zainab had to be away from the car and occupants under fire for SAH to gun it without securing her.
    Remember the evidence markers in a line from below the lay by to the middle of the lay by? If it was all a coincidence in that the Al Hillis, with all that we know about, came upon an unrelated random local murder attempt, would there have been such a huge security response from the UK embassy? Would they have continued this facade of a non-investigation for so long? Why not just arrest the culprits and suffer the mild embarrassment of some nutter killing an allies important scientist and his family. And finally what about the astronomical odds of Iqbal’s other husband, dying on the same day as her and SAHs murder? Too much, in the end for this scenario to be a favorite, for me.

    • Reply ↓
      Good In Parts

      intp1

      “But If your plan was to hold up SM and force him to submit to a suiciding, would you bring 3 clips with you? Maybe, if you were a complete military anorak and maybe that could also explain the high accuracy % of the shots fired.”

      The pistol was issued to Swiss officers in a box which included a cleaning kit and 3 magazines. The weight penalty for carrying an ‘extra’ two loaded magazines would be minimal compared with the potential benefits.

      “Would you really need to kill all the family? maybe you might think you did.”

      Only the adults were actually murdered. My interpretation is that Zainab was beaten around the head in order to disrupt long-term memory formation and render her unreliable as a witness.

      “Would you though, if you were with your precious daughter leave her outside the car as you attempted to escape? I think that Zainab had to be away from the car and occupants under fire for SAH to gun it without securing her.”

      Agreed.

      “If it was all a coincidence in that the Al Hillis, with all that we know about, came upon an unrelated random local murder attempt, would there have been such a huge security response from the UK embassy?”

      Sure, at first sight, or rather first query of the database, der blinkenlights must have lit up like Vegas.

      “Would they have continued this facade of a non-investigation for so long? Why not just arrest the culprits and suffer the mild embarrassment of some nutter killing an allies important scientist and his family.”

      The embarassment would be more than mild if the murderer were one-of-their-own.

      Even so, one should not neglect the explanatory power of incompetence.

      “And finally what about the astronomical odds of Iqbal’s other husband, dying on the same day as her and SAHs murder?”

      That is pretty much the only thing that worries me.

        • Reply ↓
          Good In Parts

          michael norton

          Look on the bright side, less time spent holding news conferences and throwing people under the bus should leave more time for the investigating.

    • Reply ↓
      michael norton

      intp 1
      thank you for that, from your piece can i add one other that we have known about but put the two together.
      Quote ” SAH’s security related job and the odd, seemingly impulsive timing of their trip. ”

      Sylvain Mollier “apparently” told his bird that he needed to go out and she was to stop being at work and look after their baby
      while he went off for an impromptu cycle ride.

      So the family al Hilli, left England for an impromptu “holiday” to Savoie,
      Sylvain left his working wife to look after the baby while he went off on an impromptu cycle ride.
      They both arrived at the same time, were they were SHOT.

      This might get us thinking, this was somebody else planning that the Family al-Hilli and Sylvain Mollier should meet.

  • Reply ↓
    intp1

    @michael norton December 19, 2016 at 09:11
    The idea that the All Hillis had a rendez-vous with SM has always been a possible scenario. Particularly early and on this forum. the problem with it has been no feasible connection between them could be imagined with any likelihood although a shroud came down regarding both party’s work specifics so that could be just our ignorance.
    A theory was that one party was shopping secrets to the other, perhaps with the knowledge of certain agencies but not others. Sometimes info is shopped to see who’s buying and to find out what they are interested in. That could have gone horribly wrong.
    It’s also possible SM was a racist nutter with backup and he stalked and shot up the Al Hillis, WBM arrived late and took SM down. (All the ballistics leaks could be complete coverup rubbish)
    Another fact is that at least one of SAH’s objectives for the trip was to discuss the Swiss account. Phone calls were made Meetings were scheduled. he mixed that issue in parallel with a family holiday, would he have mixed any further complications in parallel? It is certainly possible that this money or something about it, leads to the motive – greed for a share? Long standing hatred (or love) of Saddam? Iqbal’s secret identity?
    For me, It has always had a feeling that the cold blooded attack on all the family, including shooting Zainab, was meant to punish and deter; to make a statement to those in the know that whatever the mystery association was, someone was not tolerating it and was not hiding that fact. The timing of the death of Iqbal’s ex, whose function was apparently to facilitate immigration and a new life in the States, also means, the perpetrator didn’t want it to be unclear that this was revenge or disgust about something, and that the actor(s) had no hesitation in murdering other Nationals on their soil and they don’t mind which government agency knows it.
    SAH cannot have had an idea of the extent of danger he was walking into, or he would not have brought his kids and Grandma along? Perhaps someone gave him a false sense of the security arrangements.
    Someone screwed up letting this happen (I suspect the Brits) and whoever the authorities really suspect is being protected (even if they have already been eliminated) probably for sensitive political reasons.
    I don’t believe that if it was just a local nutter, that would not be embarrassing enough for the French (or the Brits) to go to all these lengths. Sometimes an Australian, French, British monster kills another National. It happens and the discomfort is relatively brief, especially the way the Press is controlled these days.

    • Reply ↓
      michael norton

      An interesting point:
      when Sylvain Mollier “stepped down” from his employment on an eXtended time frame, did they bring someone in from outside or did they move somebody sideways or was his the sort of job that only a government “specialist” could reliably do, the main job with the firm ( Areva or whatever) not that important.

    • Reply ↓
      michael norton

      What if Ikbal was an agent working for the Americans, Saad was just the driver, the exchange was “grandmother”
      Sylvain Mollier was an agent working for France, William Brett Martin was a minder / watcher,
      the buyers? were in the four wheel vehicle, they plan was to transfer “grandmother” from the BMW into the four wheel vehicle.
      Possibly “grandmother” was taken alive.
      but who were the buyers?

  • Reply ↓
    michael norton

    French President Francois Hollande said “I expressed my emotion earlier today to the British people in relation to the terrible deaths. Both the French and the British family have been impacted by this terrible event and we will do our utmost to find the perpetrators, to find the reasons behind that event. Our police are co-operating and everything that is found will be shared.”

    Now four year have gone, perhaps Francois could update us?

  • Reply ↓
    michael norton

    You also inherit the Chevaline affair. What is the status of the investigation, more than four years after the fact?

    This is obviously THE BIG ISSUE. It requires commitment and determination. This has been the case since the beginning. The means have evolved over time. It is in fact impossible to maintain the starting device. But it is also out of the question to let this record sleep in a corner. Today, just under a dozen investigators are working on this case. International letters rogatory are still in progress. We are continuing, for example, to work with the Swiss judicial authorities, particularly on weapons. Of course, we are studying the possible reconciliation with any new case that arises.

    Is there anything new?

    The tracks followed until then are not closed but have given nothing as they are. We can have some information, a stroke of luck.
    Never let go of anything. It is such an important file with four people killed, two child victims. We all look forward to it being elucidated.

    What has changed your arrival in this survey?

    Can the look of a new prosecutor change the situation? We would like! There has already been such a mass of work. Be aware that the record is over 70 volumes. The only thing that can be said is that my arrival coincides with that of a new instructing magistrate. Together, we ask all questions: Who was the target? Is there a connection between the British family and the Savoyard cyclist? Is it pure coincidence? Who benefits from crime? The advantage is that we have not formed an opinion. Keep an open mind. No hypothesis has succeeded. But none is excluded. Including the local track.

    • Reply ↓
      michael norton

      Well, what does this revelation tell us, bugger all.
      They don’t seem to have a clue but rule nothing out, not much for four and a quarter years work.

      BRING IN THE UNCLE
      and give him the French Horse Cock treatment.

        • Reply ↓
          michael norton

          Pierre Morange, he is the uncle of Claire.
          He is/was a doctor.
          I believe he was a partner in The PHARMACIE SCHUTZ MORANGE in Grignon.
          I believe that Sylvain and Claire where living above the pharmacie, in Grinon, adjacent to the Sapeurs-pompiers.

          Why should other people be harshly “questioned” other families be rubbished but not the families Morange -Shutz?

  • Reply ↓
    Good In Parts

    Giez

    Giez has been on the table as an exit route pretty much from the get-go. I think it was originally suggested by CA.

    As an entry route to the combe it was probably not considered early on because of the assumption that the killer had somehow followed the SAH party.

    It does however have a number of advantages:-

    1) The Giez area does not seem to be part of the ‘parc de bauges’. The implication of which is that a vehicle could drive up a track from Giez pretty much to the ridge line directly above Le Martinet parking without infringing any regulations.

    2) It is on the way from Ugine.

    • Reply ↓
      Good In Parts

      Bacchus

      My recollection is that he was child-minding her young son. Presumably the kid was so young that he could not provide a water-tight alibi.

      EM did commit to following this particular piste through to its conclusion. He may indeed have done so however he never bothered to share any such conclusion has not been shared with the public as far as I am aware.

      By now there must be a significant number of people who have not been, and cannot be, fully exonerated. A pall hangs over their lives.

      Basically if you are not pure as the driven snow, you are going to be thrown under the next bus.

      Take LMC as the exemplar, despite riding around on his own, registered, motorcycle with his own mobile phone registering with the local cell tower, he would have been under the bus if he wasn’t squeeky clean.

      That and the fact that he lawyered-up and stiff-armed les gendarmes.

          • Bacchus

            I love it !

            Daniel 5:12
            “This was because an extraordinary spirit, knowledge and insight, interpretation of dreams, explanation of enigmas and solving of difficult problems were found in this Daniel, whom the king named Belteshazzar. Let Daniel now be summoned and he will declare the interpretation.”

  • Reply ↓
    Q

    Could Christopher Steele, “runaway spy”, as The Sun calls him, have been mistaken for Saad al-Hilli?

    Steele had reported ties to Litvinenko.

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