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New Tom Parry article in the Mirror – Here is the link:-
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/murder-alps-5-clues-could-32391347
Quote:- “The bewildering mass murder of a British family on holiday in the french alps remains unsolved more than two decades on”
Yes, you read that correctly, “two decades on”. . .
See how many other doubtful statements you can find.
It was thirteen and a half years ago.
David Cameron was the newish prime minister of the U.K. in a coalition.
Today, he is reborn as Foreign Secretary.
Perhaps he could be asked to look into it?
Tom Parry, implies that Suhailia went with the family al-Hilli from Claygate, to The Alps.
I don’t know where he gets his information but as far as I am aware, it has never been stated how Suhailia got to The Alps?
It would be useful, to have a timeline of the movements of Suhailia.
The girls claimed to not know who she was?
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8q56va
at approx 2:54
“C’est 70 hommes dans des chemises de couleur jaune”
So 70 suspects are, or have been, numero un!
Pity I don’t speak French but picked some of it up from reading.
Gun stopped being made in 1929.
So, about a ninety year old gun, probably Swiss.
The youngest the gun could be (if we have been told the truth) would be 83 years old.
How many times, since the Second World War, has an 80-100 year old pistol been used to kill four people at the same site, at the same moment?
2012 − 1929 = 83
Perhaps the barrel had been changed, prior to the Alps Massacre?
I expect, if the barrel had recently been replaced, this could be spotted by ballistic scientists,
in the recovered ammo?
@michael norton
The gun was first manufactured in 1929. The final manufacturing run for the Swiss armed forces was completed in 1946. A small number of sales to private individuals was made in 1947.
Good In Parts.
So you are claiming the gun could be as young as 65?
2012-1947 = 65
In my view, still a very old gun to be doing a quad murder?
If they have not got the actual gun but only the shots fired, barrels can be changed?
Actually, I have remembered, that, they have claimed a fractured part of a grip was recovered.
But again, grips are also replaced.
So, the actual gun used in 2012 does not have to be 65 -100 years old.
It could be a made up gun, not a classic.
If the actual gun has not or never will be recovered, we will not know?
The question, though, is why use a 100 – 65 year old gun
or why pretend it was a classic?
I was just musing about the tightness of the timeline, particularly just before and after the murders themselves.
Just imagine that Sylvain’s ex-wife had stayed on the phone for, say, another minute, or insisted that he stop cycling and talk to her. Sylvain would have been further delayed and the gap between him and WBM reduced. WBM would then have cycled straight into the middle of the massacre.
Wikipedia
“Eventually, ballistic analyses of the cartridge cases and butt plate fragments showed that the weapon used by the killer was a Luger P06 semi-automatic pistol (model 1906) firing the 7.65×21mm Parabellum ammunition”
So, Wiki thinks it was a 1906 model?
Have we seen written proof that it was a much more recent gun?
@michael norton
The most interesting issue with regard to the gun is just how pieces of the grip plate ended up found near to Sylvain Mollier’s cycle.
Zainab’s recent recollections seem to imply that she was grabbed from behind before she could get into the car, then bashed around the head. If this was when the grip plate was broken, how did pieces end up near to the cycle?
It is possible that the grip plate was broken by the killer before he got to the middle of the car park (where Zainab presumably was) and that the cause was that the killer had an issue with the grip safety. If so, this implies to me that the killer had not had much (if any) experience of live-firing this particular weapon.
Good In Parts,
maybe if the weapon was extremely old, the grip plates could be fragile.
However I do not believe that a modern gun would shed a grip plate by being bashed into the head of a young girl.
More likely the grip fragments were scattered at the crime scene to throw off future investigations.
Good In Parts I have heard it suggested that Sylvain was the first to be shot, with the shootist moving on to the occupants of the BMW.
It has also been suggested that the shootist moved back to Sylvain to make completely sure he was dead. Maybe Sylvain was also clubbed, maybe he was clubbed before he was first shot, perhaps because Sylvain preemptively attacked the gunman?
How about this: Sylvain cycles up the mountain, he sees man holding Zainab, Sylvain rushes man and man bashes Sylvain and shoots Sylvain.
@michael norton
Interesting idea but the recent information from Zainab is that she saw Sylvain (presumably already there at Le Martinet parking or just arriving) as she was instructed to get into the car.
We still do not have a full picture of the events at Le Martinet. However les gendarmes have much, much, more information than us.
For instance, forensic examination of the pieces of broken grip plate found near Sylvain Mollier’s velo should have revealed the presence, or absence, of Zainab’s DNA. Which would be a big help.
Previously I have advocated a killer working shifts (les trois huit) possibly at the same works as Sylvain Mollier.
Well it turns out that les gendarmes found just such a man, ‘Nicolas’, who is pretty much the archetype for this scenario, who worked with SM, played sports with SM and had a serious beef with SM. See this video starting at the 8:00 minute mark:-
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8q56n7
Apparently he was exonerated because he could not shoot well enough… Still, there could be others.
No comment
Take a gander at our Eric under questioning about Sylvain Mollier in this video, starting at about 16:30 minutes in.
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8q56n7
I am embarrassed to admit that I thought that some of Zaid’s comments about the wall of silence and “protection” of Sylvain Mollier were somewhat overblown.
But watching this video of Eric smugly stonewalling, makes Zaid’s position seem more than reasonable.
Good In Parts, the brother, Zaid, always seemed pretty genuine, to me.
Maybe he did have a dispute with his younger and stronger brother about their parents fortune.
So what, nothing out of the normal there. Getting your brother and his family rubbed out, five hundred miles from home, almost, no chance, too difficult to organize, unless he was a major crime boss or in British Intelligence, so that did not happen.
I had not previously heard of this, Nicholas, who used to be an item with Clair, the mother of the last child of Sylvain.
I would like a minute by minute detail of the last twenty four hours of the life of Sylvain Mollier.
We have probably been told there was a phonecall. Following this phonecall, Sylvain thought he needed to go for a cycle ride. It has been suggested that the only earner in the family module of Clair & Sylvain, was Clair in her Chemist shop. After the phonecall, Sylvain, who was looking after their baby son, needed to dump the baby with somebody, so he could go cycling?
This seems rather selfish behaviour. She, was apparently the only earner in their family group but because at the drop of a hat he needed to go cycling, Clair had to shut her shop, probably sending a worker home. Rather ludicrous behaviour? However, if Sylvain was an active member of the French Security service, I can imagine, although, not happy, Clair would understand.
That day she contacted the police/government officials, to let them know she was worried, what could happen to Syvain.
Maybe, this is why French Authorities have been so reluctant to spell out the movements of Sylvain Mollier?
Although this happened thirteen and a half years ago, probably Sylvain had a mobile phone with him. We have been told, that his wife/ex wife rang him, while he was ascending the mountain. One of the modern ways that police work is undertaken, is by looking at data from mobile phones. So, if it was true, that Sylvain had a mobile phone on his person that day.
They should be able to understand, who called Sylvain, while he was out with his baby, letting him know, he needed to dump the baby to go cycling.
They should have been able to track every movement of Sylvain, on that day.
My guess is that we have been lied to and that Sylvain did not have a mobile phone with him and therefor did not take a call from his (ex) wife
on that day. I expect it is true Sylvain took a call, that day, that directly led him to dump his baby with somebody, to go Cycling, for a mission.
It may be a fairly small point but as far as I am aware, we have never been told who Sylvain dumped his baby with?
If, say he was visiting his sister and she had a landline call for Sylvain, his sister would most likely know who was calling Sylvain?
@michael norton
I seem to remember that Sylvain Mollier called his new partner Claire at work and persuaded her to come home from work to care for their baby so that he could go out cycling.
Canal+ series:- Sans issue – La tuerie de Chevaline
I have reviewed the six episodes several times now and overall it is a pretty reasonable view of the current situation. However the video is hosted by dailymotion so (as mchael norton noted) only autogenerated french subtitles are available.
The highlights:-
One of the journos (‘Perez’ I think) did press the hapless Eric about SM as far as she could get away with.
A work colleague of SM was identified as a viable candidate (named only as ‘Nicolas’) and apparently eliminated.
The downsides:-
There was no mention at all of the two mobylettes seen by Claude Antoine.
There was no discussion of the possible ingress and exit routes and their implications.
The status of the ‘cold case’ investigation got minimal attention. They are working on the ‘bornage telephonique’
The final episode (number six) still identified WBM as a viable suspect. Which, twelve years on, is patently ridiculous.
Anybody got anything else to add?
As far as Sylvain was moving about that day with his baby, I expect he was walking with a pushchair in Ugine.
It might be that he visited his mother ( normal) or visited his sister ( normal) or visited his (ex) wife, after all they did share children. Perhaps while he was visiting his (ex) wife, with his baby, there was a landline phonecall, so, (ex) wife looks at baby while Sylvain takes the call, then he says to her “I’ve got to go out now” you look after the baby and give Claire a ring.
Then he dashes off home to go out on his cycle not taking a mobile phone. His movements are not tracked but he has been programmed for a task.
Another option would be that he did have a mobile phone and it would be possible to track his movements. After almost fourteen years the French Authorities would know if he was carrying a mobile on that cycle ride or not.
Did they recover Sylvain’s mobile phone from Le Martinet?
Were any mobile phones recovered from Le Martinet?
If no mobile phones were recovered from Le Martinet, what could that mean?
It could mean that the shootist / their team took all the mobile phones away.
It could mean that W.B.M. took all the mobile phones away.
It could mean that none of the people killed had mobile phones.
If all of the people, who usually had mobile phones, had chosen that day, not to take mobile phones up to Le Martinet,
what could that tell us?
@ michael norton
I think that SAH’s phone was recovered and also grandma’s phone and/or camera.
Sylvain Mollier’s mobile was certainly recovered from Le Martinet – the interesting thing is that the gendarmes just sat on it, then approx a year later they checked the logs and found that his ex-wife had phoned him whilst he was grimping up the combe d’Ire. That seemed strange to me as it should be one of the first things checked. Also his ex-wife did not mention said call to the gendarmes when interviewed.
Good In Parts, if such a mobile call happened between Sylvain and his (ex) wife, moments before Sylvain was shot multiple times, it would be unimaginable for (ex) wife not to remember the last time she spoke to the father of her children.
They do not forget anything.
If she did ring Sylvain, she might have said ” That bloody Claire has not picked up her baby yet”
Good In Parts, rather than the gendarmes just sitting on Sylvain Mollier’s mobile phone, a much more likely option, would be that one of the spy agencies held on to that phone. If it is true the mobile was only looked at by ordinary plod, twelve months later, that would be because all useful information had been removed and some disinformation had been installed on that device.
I am not convinced Sylvain had a mobile with him that day or that his (ex) wife called him, just before he was shot.
That fib, was most likely done to pin-point Sylvain at a “politically” convenient time, probably to tie in with W.B.M. rendering of a timeline.
The French agencies, needed retrospectively, to get all their ducks, lined up
michael norton
You wrote:-
“I am not convinced Sylvain had a mobile with him that day or that his (ex) wife called him, just before he was shot.”
Well that would require both les gendarmes and his (ex) wife to be in collusion. Because les gendarmes would undoubtable know where the phone was located and be able to check the call logs of his (ex) wife. So she would have to be in on it as well.
Still, I am sure that there are things we are not being told about the two phone calls that were apparently made.
May be not, Good In Parts.
If Sylvain did not have a mobile phone with him on his last cycle ride, his (ex) wife would not have been able to chat with him as he ascended to Le Martinet.
Quote “Also his ex-wife did not mention said call to the gendarmes when interviewed”
If many months after the mass shootings, the security forces handed over Sylvain’s mobile phone to the plods, saying they found in in the street or in Clair’s car or in his (ex) wife’s home or in Claire’s shop or where Sylvain kept his cycle, or where Claire and Sylvain lived, they had kept it for such a long time because of State Security reasons – no explanation offered and none asked for by the plod.
Sylvain’s mobile would then tell the story that the State wanted the plod to understand.
If needed the plod could tell that story to a court, all sorted.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13482605/French-authorities-accused-cover-brother-British-tourist-mysteriously-gunned-Alps-family.html
The French authorities have been accused of a cover up by the brother of a British tourist who was brutally shot dead in the Alps alongside his wife and mother-in-law in 2012, in a mystery that remains unsolved to this day.
Mr al-Hilli has called for investigators to search for more local suspects after he was wrongly arrested in 2013 in a bid to finally close the case which has puzzled police for more than a decade – while accusing French officials of a cover up.
‘The original investigation was a deception, to attempt to deceive us,’ he said, according to The Times. ‘It was a local crime and has been covered up.
They made allegations against me without any evidence. There was no attempt to look at a local motive right from the start,
progress could now be made after French police revealed earlier this week that DNA testing might be able to solve the baffling cold case.
Investigators from France’s elite cold case unit in the Paris suburb of Nanterre have ordered the ‘unsealing of the fragments’.
The clothes Sylvian Mollier and Zainab Al-Hilli were wearing on the fateful day are also going to be reexamined, along with some 10 cigarette butts found around the area.
More than two dozen spent bullet casings were found near their British-registered BMW estate car.
‘It is hoped that new examinations will uncover DNA traces
Maybe they could have done that a decade ago?
michael norton
Maybe the DNA recovery and sequencing technology has moved on in the last twelve years.
But the focus on DNA raises questions about what DNA results they used to eliminate ED. One possibility is that they only ever had a partial DNA profile that was sufficient to eliminate ED but not a full complete profile.
Incidently, on the subject of partial profiles, I remember a case where two apparently unrelated people had left matching partial profiles. Which seems pretty unlikely until you realise that ‘partial’ might be pretty partial indeed.
Good In Parts
“Environmental DNA (eDNA) is organismal DNA that can be found in the environment. Environmental DNA originates from cellular material shed by organisms (via skin, excrement, etc.) into aquatic or terrestrial environments that can be sampled and monitored using new molecular methods. Such methodology is important for the early detection of invasive species as well as the detection of rare and cryptic species.”
I understand that stuff is garnered from cave sediments that can determine which species of hominin dwelled in that cave.
https://www.usgs.gov/special-topics/water-science-school/science/environmental-dna-edna#:~:text=Environmental%20DNA%20(eDNA)%20is%20nuclear,extracellular%20(dissolved%20DNA)%20form.
IQBAL
“Between February 1999 and January 2001, she had stayed under the first name “Kelly” in the United States, where she had met, through friends from Iraq, James Dudley Thompson, a building contractor born in 1952, whom she had married, and from whom she had divorced two days after her marriage to Saad Al-Hilli.”
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuerie_de_Chevaline
So according to French Wikipedia Iqbal did not divorce Mr. Thompson, till two days after she had married Saad.
Surely that is not normal behaviour?
It would also make Iqbal liable for prison, it would also invalidate her marriage to Saad.
michael norton
All true however I don’t think that it had any bearing on the tragic murders whatsoever.
In my view the killer is local, with a home base somewhere between the southern half of the lake and the Ugine/Marthod area. If pressed I would say that the hot spot on a heat map of the area would be Faverges. All the way from La Balmette through to les Grandes Pieces and all points in-between.
“For a start, there is no doubt that Iqbal wished to keep her brief first marriage a secret. She certainly lied about it when she married Saad in Surrey on August 28, 2003, two years after abandoning her first husband.
Signing herself by her maiden name — Iqbal Al-Saffar — she failed to declare her first marriage to officials at the register office in Weybridge.
Under UK law, those who have been married previously must produce documentary evidence of their divorce. Instead, Iqbal declared that she was a ‘spinster’ — the legal term for an unmarried woman — raising the possibility that she did not even tell her new husband about her previous marriage.”
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2689398/Was-Alps-massacre-wife-REAL-target-This-week-emerged-secret-husband-died-
I wonder what her “mother” knew
For a long time, I thought that Iqbal was working with / under, her “mother”
in a game of spies.
I can be quite happy to think that the murderer/murder gang were mostly local.
But why the very old local gun?
Is there a message , that a very old, local gun could tell us?
michael norton
If the medium is the message, then the P06/29 is saying “I am unregistered and untraceable. Good luck finding me!”
Further to my Faverges Valley fixation, I think that the cycleway used by Sylvain Mollier is key. I would hazard a guess that the killer’s home base is only a few minutes from the cycleway.
Good In Parts, The French Authorities have consistently been tight lipped about the Life History of Sylvain Mollier.
They have not said that he had been in the armed services. They could have categorically said he had never been in the police service / fire service / secret service / military / crime syndicate, they have said none of those things, he was just the average cycling French welder on paternity leave, with a potentially millionaire new spouse. They have not focused on the gun carrying politician uncle of his new spouse. They have not focused on the political history of his family. They have not focused on the military / secret service history of his family. They do not seem to be that interested in connections with the DGSE. It is as if they want you to think there are no French connections to this case.
Yet the very old weapon has probably come from a fifty mile radius. Not something likely to be used by The British /The Americans /The Russians/The Israelis.
Can’t remember if this has been posted before, but the Cold Case group has now narrowed the Luger down to one of a lot of 900. This is excellent work and they deserve praise for making this much progress but I am still pessimistic that the killer will actually be identified and caught this way.
https://www.francebleu.fr/infos/faits-divers-justice/tuerie-de-chevaline-le-pole-cold-case-de-nanterre-ordonne-de-nouvelles-analyses-adn-6061580
Thank you for that Good in Parts,
so they now think the gun was manufactured in Bern, Switzerland, about one hundred miles from “The Slaughter of the Horses”.
The gun was about ninety years old.
The next question is, where had the gun been resting for eighty years?
Cold Case Trifecta
There is the progress on the model 29, now narrowed down to a lot of 900.
Then there is the renewed DNA testing, using the latest technology.
And finally (re)analysis of base station logs.
Place your bets now.
Just a Flying visit. Some thoughts: The gun: Luger parts may have been found, but were they the weapon or put there to lead to a local amateur conclusion? Facts: The gun was initially reported by the French as thought to be a Skorpion machine pistol, (which can fire the same ammo). That weapon, set on single shot would better fit the situation and number of shots (I think the luger would have needed to be reloaded twice or have a large rotary magazine).
The handle fragments were discovered quite late (Days after anyway) so they could have easily been “dropped” especially considering the documented, very poor cordon security. Plus, this operation exhibited at least a reasonable degree of professionalism (e.g. accuracy and grouping of the shots. Efficient personnel extraction, which we still can’t tie down method) but would professionals bring such an old model as well as two extra clips and expect the reliability and suffer the risks of re-loading?
By the way, Plastic fragments have been mentioned here, originally this gun had ebonized wood grips. then some years later, some models switched to Bakelite. I don’t remember when but it has been discussed here before, in detail, otherwise they would be wood fragments. Some here on this forum, have taken the grip to be an orange variant of Bakelite type material, especially commissioned by Swiss authorities though I have never seen that (orange grip) fact repeated anywhere but here. Also, and again, I don’t know where sourced, suggested the fragments came out of Zainab’s hair at hospital but as far as I remember they were reported as found on the road at Chevaline as someone said here, just now.
Re. who was the primary target: Who was shot 1st is probably not exactly knowable but it doesn’t necessarily indicate who was primary, Silvain could have been shot before, during and maybe even after. It would help If we knew the forensic facts but we are told Zainab had SM’s blood on her feet so at least she was attacked, after SM. It could be that SM cycled up the hill and encountered the Al Hillis & assailants or it could be SM was attacked while riding and when his bike and assailants reached the lay-by, with the BMW tucked in, that which resulted in them being eliminated as witnesses (the location of shells could support this). There is evidence that points at both ideas: William the pilot is very suspicious and looks like a UK agent and he was in SM’s cycling club! But then there is also evidence it was something to do with Iqbal (the odds of death of her and two husbands on the same day is is in the billions :1)
We are not privy to most of the evidence; we rely on media and rumour; it is very possible we are being deliberately miss-lead by the authorities with what is reported. In those circumstances, unless there is a leak of some significant truth, this may be unsolvable but Good Luck; nice talking to you all.
@intp1
Plenty to unpack there…
To kick off:- “the location of the shells” supporting anything at all is seriously doubtful.
The reason being is that the scene was trampled, initially by WBM, then the hikers drove up with WBM, then the SP, then SAMU, then les gendarmes and finally, le piece de le resistance, the Civil Guard helicopter which winched Zainab up in a cradle.
Any one of these, particularly the helicopter, could move the spent shells around. In my view (and that of commentators in french media) the evidentiary value of the casing distribution was seriously compromised.
As an aside, the helicopter downwash seems to me to explain why so many spent shells were found under the BMW. In my view they were blown around until they landed in in the lee of the car.
Sorry, I can’t remember what I have said about this in the past.
It ought to be obvious if Sylvain was shot whilst riding his expensive velo.
The cycle would show where it hit the ground, if he was moving fast there would be resistance scatches on the ground as well as the damage to the cycle, also grazes to the legs of Sylvain, also to his hands.
There would be cycle paint on the ground.
It should been very easy to determine this?
However, that may not prove, who was shot first or if there was a primary target. As Sylvain was shot multiple time, more times than anybody else, Sylvain must have posed a threat to the gunman.
After all these years, they should have worked the sequence and postions, Sylvain, was in, when each of the shots was fired at him, this should also show the position/s of the shootist, also if missed shots became embedded in trees.
In the recent Fico shooting, a bullet was dug out of a tree.
I dont really agree re the casings. Shell casings are light but dense metal. They could be kicked and moved somewhat but the casings were not scattered randomly; they were in distinct, quite straight line patterns. E.g. 4 shells in a row on the road leading to the lay-by.
A helicopter could not get low enough in that tree cover to generate downdraught enough. I have taken many rides, on the oil rigs and waiting in line. At 50 feet the downdraught is dissipated to a light breeze. And once again I cite the obvious lines when you join the dots.
Also on the bike. 1st we know nothing definitive of the bikes condition but SM would not be travelling at max speed up that hill. If shot while riding. He may have struggled on and slowed down before keeling over. Plus. And I have recent personal experience when you fall to the side on a bike your own legs will to some extent break the fall of the bike frame.
The casing pattern may be consistent with various scenarios, including an All- Hilli primary target but GIP is trying too hard imo to discount one of few actual bits of hard evidence, we are given. Im not sure but I can’t help wondering why that might be.
If there were no damages to Sylvain’s cycle, no scratches to the legs or hands of Sylvain and no cycle paint or scratch marks in the road, then he had already dismounted. Almost certainly he would not have put his cycle on the ground. Most likely he would be holding his cycle.
If Sylvain had already dismounted, then it would be reasonable to assume that he was interacting with a member or members of the family al-Hilli.
Could it have been possible that Sylvain was meeting the Family al-Hilli.
He could have cycle higher than where the al-Hilli’s were parked.
Meaning he cycled up and past them without acknowledging them. Then he observed them.
This has a few benefits for Sylvain.
He can observe the scene looking down from above.
If he has satisfied himself that the venue is alright, he can cycle back down to them.
If as he is cycling back down to them, the scene changes, he can pick up speed and cycle, down past them, fast.
michael norton
Yep, that all seems reasonable and was something I myself considered back in the day however that was before the photo showing the cycle on its side facing up the combe. That made me reconsider.
You can still make it work if you assume that the velo was originally somewhere else, possibly blocking the road, and that the SP or gendarmes moved it around and changed its orientation. Note that I am not suggesting in any way that the helicopter downwash blew the velo around the parking spot.
If Sylvain had been shot whilst cycling his velo, then the marks on the road, would show to the forensic scientists his direction of travel.
In the recent shooting of Robert Fico, Prime minister of Slovakia, we have been told that five bullets were fired from a weapon CZ 75 ( like a modern Luger) one bullet was dug out of a tree. Possibly this bullet first went through Fico.
We have been told that twenty five bullets were fired in the forest, up the combe in Savoy.
We have not been told than any bullets were dug out of a tree.
Similar weapon, five times as many shots fired, both shooters at close range.
I would be shocked if no bullets ended up stuck in a tree.
I assume that most bullets passed though the bodies of the victims?
According to Fico’s chief advisor Erik Kaliňák, Fico’s small intestine was shot in five places.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attempted_assassination_of_Robert_Fico
michael norton
You wrote:- “We have been told that twenty five bullets were fired in the forest, up the combe in Savoy. We have not been told than any bullets were dug out of a tree.”
My understanding is that twenty one rounds were fired and we certainly have been told that at least one of the unaccounted-for bullets was found to have hit a tree branch. This was found pretty early on when they went back to the scene with metal detectors to search for the rest of the bullets.
Good In Parts, what I am driving at, is,it is most likely that at the very close range that the shooting happened, most of the bullets would have passed through the victims bodies. As we have been led to believe that only two of the victims were moved around by W.B.M. Three of the victims, we have been told were shot where they sat, in the BMW, although, some think that Saad was first shot outside of his vehicle?
Most of the victims were shot multiple times. It should have been relatively easy to work out the positions of each victim, for each shot they sustained. It should also be relatively easy to work out the position of the shooter/s as each shot was fired.
This is made simpler by the close range of the shooting and easier by the bullets passing through the victims.
In this way a 3D “film” could be made showing how the shooter/s moved around their victims.
Nice picture of helicopter downwash from wikipedia:-
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/79/US_Navy_050419-N-5313A-414_Search_and_Rescue_%28SAR%29_swimmers_attached_to_the_Kearsarge_Expeditionary_Strike_Group_conduct_search_and_rescue_training_during_routine_helicopter_operations.jpg/250px-thumbnail.jpg
So GIP, this helicopter you post I believe is a Sikorsky MH-60 or UH-60. It is 65 ft long, rotor diameter- 54 ft, Weighs 5.5 tons. Can lift a further 4 tonnes of people/cargo/weapons. A powerful workhorse for the military or coastguard. I estimate it is about 70 ft from the surface.
Compared to police or media choppers would be about 1/2 that size buzzing the Chevaline site and with the hilly gradient and the height of the trees, 70 ft down would be about touching the treetops, close to and especially uphill of the road. That would never be risked. Not a fair comparison; not a similar downwash and not a similar working height imho.
Test post – please ignore.
Red Luger grip embrittlement.
“Original Swiss Luger grips (the red ones from early 1930’s) are made of a material called “Canvesite”. They are known to be brittle and chip or break easily. As a result, a large number have, over time, been broken, and it’s very difficult to find a replacement.
See link below for a pair for sale:-
https://www.naturabuy.fr/RARE-PLAQUETTE-PREMIERE-VARIATION-CANEVASITE-POUR-06-29-item-10458924.html
GIP, my understanding is that it was a certain Dept in Switzerland applied these red grips over a certain time period, not every luger that came across the border had these grips fitted so my question (which I have wondered, although I don’t think affects any particular theory, because Black/brown Bakelite is also quite brittle, especially when it is >50 years old ) is do you know/have you seen it referenced or mentioned anywhere that the fragments found were of this red Canvesite material?
Have you seen this Red Luger?
@intp1
To answer your question, No, I have not found any confirmation that the grip fragments were Canevasite. That is simply what I think most likely.
However the latest information from the french media (poss La Parisiene) is that the fragments have been narrowed down to a ‘series’ of 910 weapons manufactured in 1935.
Now, if the manufacture date was 1945, then Bakelite grips would be almost certain. But 1935 would be only the second year of full volume production, so I reckon there is a really good chance that Red Canevasite was the material used.
If it were, then it would be a great ‘hook’ for an appeal to the public.
So, you are now saying the weapon was 77 years old, at the time of the massacre?
SSTL is the firm in Surrey that Saad al Hilli worked for at the time of the Alps Massacre
“SSTL has been working closely with U.K. Space Command on ISTARI and hopes to win further defence contracts, at home and abroad.”
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1d77yq9zz2o
“Commissioned by U.K.Space Command and built by Surrey Satellite Technology Ltd (SSTL) in Guildford, the 160kg satellite will collect its imagery at optical wavelengths – in the same light we sense with our eyes.
It’s designed to capture 5km-wide spot scenes on the ground and have a best resolution of 90cm.”
https://www.raf.mod.uk/our-organisation/stations/raf-high-wycombe/
2021 RAF High Wycombe became headquarters of U.K. Space Command, following its formation.
all seems very cosy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_Space_Command
Let’s remind ourselves of a few connections.
I believe W.B.M. served in the RAF
W.B.M. enjoyed cycling
Sylvain Mollier enjoyed cycling
Saad al-Hilli enjoyed cycling
At least for a while Sylvain Mollier and W.B.M. were in the same cycling club.
Whilst in England, W.B.M. and Saad al-Hilli lived fairly close to each other.
Whilst in France, W.B.M. and Sylvain Mollier lived fairly close to each other.
S.A.H. worked for SSTL in Surrey,
at one time this firm was at least partially owned by Elon Musk, he bought in to it because of its expertise in Satellite Technology.
SSTL is now a rising firm, highly thought of by the British Establishment /Defence World.
Iqbal and both her husbands died on the same day.
Untraced 77year old gun thought to be murder weapon – nobody knows nothing.
At the time of this massacre there was a lot of immediate interest by the British Establishment.
Yet more than a decade later, there is no reasonable publically admitted explanation?
Could it really be possible that the body of Sylvain Mollier was cremated on the 16 September, four days after the massacre?
Here is a candidate scenario.
Iqbal went to the US as a protected asset, having been connected with betraying Saddam or something connected to that regime or possibly something to do with Iran.
She gets a new identity and is hidden away in Louisiana and given a local minder who is also tasked with marrying her to gain legal residence.
Time passes and in her travels, she meets Saad and wants to go with him and have children. Americans agree to allow her to re-emigrate. Saad has a security clearance and is a minor technical asset in his own right (Saad knows the true story but who else was told?). He is of the same Islamic persuasion and his family on his father’s side had some connections with the Iraqi Govt. one of them, a cousin is said to have been tortured by the Regime and later released.
Father has about a million Euros in a Swiss account, probably stashed away from family business assets when in Iraq.
The father dies. There is some kind of problem with probate in Switzerland. Swiss banks have notorious sticks up their arse about well everything. Zaid, the brother thinks he should get a share, what does the will say? Saad decides to go to Geneva to sort it out. He has to inform the British authorities (and the US), they provide him with a baby-sitter as a routine precaution = WBM, part time contract security asset.
However, all this fuss and attention with the bank somehow breaks Iqbal’s cover, Perhaps there are Iraqis keeping an eye on the account or could it be watchers of Sueyla? They uncover who Iqbal is. Iqbal’s true identity still has enemies with long memories. They get over to Geneva (There was a documented Iraqi reparations conference in the area at the time) they find the family at the initial campsite and make contact about something, maybe money but do not reveal their real motives. A meeting is arranged at out of the way Chevaline to somehow settle the issue.
WBM is tasked with shadowing the family. Possibly, he recruits SM (who is a clandestine French asset known to him) as a backup at the last minute (by telephone).
They all set off that morning for Chevaline. Body guards in the car might make the other party nervous or somehow lose trust so WBM and SM are close-by as casual, bystander cyclists. WBM and his handlers are also fooled into a false sense of security.
The other party’s real intention is to eliminate Iqbal and all who sail with her. Motive – outright bloody revenge.
The Al Hills arrive 1st (in the context of what the meeting is ostensively about, taking the whole family is fine) The other party arrive (my eyes honestly glaze over with all the minute by minute comings and goings, that is details to me for others to work out, if even possible) SM arrives at the scene before WBM (fitter cyclist?) something is wrong, he inserts himself, probably he is armed, they kill him as a threat, before or after they kill the Al-Hillis.
Job done, they have a proper extraction plan involving whatever: motor cycles, hang gliders, hiking over to Switzerland. Then WBM arrives and is shocked to find that he is too late to stop it or perhaps he tried.
Now we have an almighty mess. The embassy is notified, they arrive that night en masse, Nobody local is allowed to touch the scene, the cops are completely subverted to intelligence services which is SOP. A story is cooked up between the French and the British, evidence is arranged, interviews are given, we know the rest. Saad btw was reportedly treated to a funeral in the UK which was paid for by the Iraqi Govt. which I always wondered why.
Why though did Iqbal’s 1st husband have to be eliminated? I can’t believe that Iraqis could do that on US territory. Perhaps the whole Iqbal affair involved something very embarrassing to the US Govt. ? He was a loose end, fond of her, couldn’t be trusted? Other than US, only the Israelis could/would kill a US citizen on US soil but what could be their motive? Unless they were somehow part of the family’s demise, or perhaps the Americans were. In this scenario, for Iraqi assassins you could insert US/Iranian/Israeli, with whatever motives.
Please discuss as you wish. What doesn’t fit?
Downwash
@intp1
The photo is a nice illustration of downwash, particularly the concentric circular wavelets generated on the sea surface.
Your other points are well made, particularly the ‘V’ shaped valley issue which would strongly distort the toroidal airflow recirculation pattern.
This distortion combined with turbulence induced by tree cover would, in my view, produce vortices at ground level.
Anyways, I seem to remember that you advocate a killer following SM from the lower of the two car parking areas.
If I have remembered this correctly, do you think that SM was shot from behind?
Also, do you think that SM was shot first?
I don’t know.
They are all possibilities. In the end though these details are unlikely to lead to who & what happened and why.
E.g. Whether the attacker was a local nut with a Luger or a crack wet work team, SM could have been attacked from the bottom or as he scooted down. The order depends on when he and the attackers 1st became aware of one another, when SM came upon the killer(s) or vice versa. Either way it doesn’t lead us to who and why. The order imo doesn’t necessarily indicate which targets were primary. Zainab could have been attacked last because of several reasons. She was less of a threat, they actually had some scruples about her age, she was not in view or in the way until she was?
A question I am trying to probe is what scenario best fits what is known, so taking Norton’s list and any other things we know what target is likely by whom and why?
Can you look at this from higher than 100 ft, say 1000 or 10 00 feet 🙂 and think about/comment on why?.
If Iqbal had lived safely in uk for years what could possibly entice her with her family to go abroad and put all in danger
A good question, is why did W.B.M. move the body of Sylvain Mollier?
The very weak story was, W.B.M. was worried Sylvain would be run over, yet W.B.M. had already determined Sylvain was dead.
Moving that body around, derailed the later police investigation.
A second good question was, why was Sylvain, apparently cremated on 16th of September, just a few days after the Alps Massacre?
A third good question would be, why no timeline of the movements of Sylvain in the week leading up to the massacre?
A fourth good question would be , what was the real back story of Sylvain Mollier?
Another good question would be did W.B.M. know Sylvain prior to the massacre?
Did W.B.M. know Saad al-Hilli prior to the massacre?
intp1
August 18, 2024 at 12:35
Here is a candidate scenario.
Not bad. I have always thought that Mrs. al-Hilli was a spy.
I don’t for one moment believe Suhalia was her biological mother.
I think Suhalia was her controller in the world of spies.
“Unsealing of the fragments”
June 2024
French police revealed earlier this week,
DNA testing might be able to solve the now cold case!
They have ordered the he “unsealing of the fragments” so they can be re-tested with state-of-the-art DNA technology.
https://metro.co.uk/2024/06/01/french-police-accused-covering-up-murder-british-family-shot-alps-20952350/
This should not take very long at all.
I can imagine that DNA would be on the shell casings.
I can imagine DNA could be recovered from the slugs.
I can imagine that DNA could be recovered from the seven year olds fingernails and her hair.
I can imagine DNA might be recovered from the gun casing fragments, if indeed these came from the weapon used.
Before Sylvain was cremated, did they determine if he had gunshot residue on his body.
What I am getting at, is, did they determine if Sylvain had fired a weapon?
Did they determine from the bullets recovered, how many weapons were fired?
Test
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[ Mod: Test passed, presumably. ]
intp1
You wrote:-
“A question I am trying to probe is what scenario best fits what is known, so taking Norton’s list and any other things we know what target is likely by whom and why?
Can you look at this from higher than 100 ft, say 1000 or 10 00 feet 🙂 and think about/comment on why?.”
I have become pretty reluctant to comment on my current thoughts about any local motive for the following reasons;
I found EM’s treatment of the SAH party to be reprehensible, so given that my speculations about possible local motives inevitably point to a pretty small number of easily identifiable people, or groups of people, I don’t want to behave like EM and bandy unprovable or unfounded accusations around. There are several very interesting speculative theories and, obviously, only one can be correct. The rest are going to be completely wrong and posting them could be hurtful or otherwise damaging to the parties involved.
Other than the al-Hilli children, there was one person who I do not think was a prime target.
In my view that person was Saad al-Hilli.
He had the most believable persona.
I don’t think he was a liar. His intelligence, his strengths, his obvious love of family, his back-story are all traceable and believable.
None of the others have a provable past?
The same could be said of his brother Zaid al-Hilli.
He seems to be truthful, honest, and sticks to his points.
He is not prepared to be bullshitted by the establishment, Zaid knows we have all been lied to, repeatedly.
michael norton
I pretty much agree with you.
As time goes on without some kind of resolution, or even a strong indication, then the probability that no party was targeted must be increased.
The link below discusses an ‘internal motivation’ which is not connected to the actual victims.
https://www.connexionfrance.com/news/alps-family-murders-british-specialist-builds-profile-of-killer/189362
The expert wrote: “I envisage the theory that the perpetrator of the Chevaline attacks acted due to their own motives, entirely independent of the victims in this case.”
I put this scenario into the ‘other’ bucket which would also include mistaken identity etc. It has serious merit however I still currently think that SM was the most likely target.
Here is a link to a short video report which, amongst other things, notes that the recent DNA re-testing effort is focused on the following:- two cigarette butts, the clothes of one of the girls and elements of the cyclist’s outfit.
The last one is interesting as it might imply that (the gendarmes think that) the attacker may have manhandled SM as well as Zainab.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukSwvBBV7xQ
Oh and comments about the Luger are interesting. They claim it has been narrowed down to a series of 940 manufactures in 1935.
I guess Saad al-Hilli was mainly, just the driver.
He drove his wife and her “mother” up that combe, that day in September.
Did he have any knowledge of what to expect, almost certainly he knew some stuff, that his wife and her “mother” were up to.
Obviously he didn’t expect death.