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“or easily followed across such ground”
Should read “or NOT easily followed across such ground”.
Then of course we have the opposite argument to it being SM as target….and the killer escaping on foot.
Why were so many bullets taken to kill one man ?
Why so many bullets used and other lives taken ?
Who was in the BMW X5 ? (You could also ask Was there ever an X5 ? in answer)
James
Q. Why carry so many rounds with only one target?
A. Because you can. They are light and cheap. The ‘cost’ of running out during a firefight is high.
Q. Why use so many rounds and murder so many people?
A. The situation (almost) spiraled out of (his/her) control. A ‘mad minute’ restored control. He or she crossed a line – no going back – may as well hang for a sheep.
Q. Who was in the RHD BMW X5/X3?
A1. Some lost driver.
A2. The killer and an accomplice.
A3. The real target. The killer got the wrong BMW.
@GIP
One thought I have always have held in the background is “the wrong BMW” scenario.
But I can’t pitch a scenario where that can happen.
For example, if the X5 became aware that the MC was at the car park (the timing given by ONF1 fits) and turned around inorder to park and wait lower down the track for the MC to pass (which it didn’t initially) ….and then the shooting happened, why didn’t ONF2, MC or WBM see this BMW X5 whilst it was waiting or escaping ?
Re you “light and cheap ammo” comment.
I have to agree. Why “make up” one clip, when you can do two…or three.
Have also asked, I wonder if the gun and bullets just been bought ? A set so to speak.
The thing is, we are still in “everything and anything is possible”.
To me, it seems more likely that the large number of bullets used and that there were four dead persons on site, indicate at least one person from each group was part of the target, if only one person in the al-Hili was a true target, the others would have been eliminated also but i think this was the plan to eliminate all of the persons who were at the meeting at Le Martinet.
Even if all the “balls” and “cases” recovered from the scene
and bodies were of the same calibre that does not preclude two or more weapons.
Origonally Eric Maillaud said it was most likely it would turn out, that there was more than one killer.
James
According to one account I read somewhere on the ever reliable interweb the forestry worker suggests that the RHD BMW X5/X3 passed the MC at or near the parking area.
This does work out rather nicely if you remember that Le Martinet, as a location, is not actuallly the parking area.
Le Martinet actually refers to a swallow or swift shaped parcel of land on which originally stood some kind of forge or mill, the ruins of which may be still just visible. This is located approx a couple of hundred meters further up the combe (carrying straight on without turning at the first hairpin).
The parking area(s) seem to be referred to as “Le Martinet Parking” by locals or simply “Combe” Parking on one map I have found. Recently, a new sign has been installed which does read Le Martinet.
However, back in the day, if X5/X3 driver had entered the Lat/Long off a map into his GPS for “Le Martinet” then he would have beeen (mis)led further up the combe.
This works irrespective of the intent of the driver.
It would also explain why a drop-off killer turned up all shouty ‘from beyond the sign’.
Exactly, GIP.
Hit teams often rely too much on their navigation system. Especially when they use a FRENCH GPS. But try to enter Le Martinet as your destination on a UK BMW and tell me what happens. Which probably happened to the al’Hillis by the way.
Your explanation must be run-of-the-mill.
@TV
” Of course Bibi was in London on 7/7 and advised to stay inside BEFORE the event ”
This is so pertinent to this thread, can you please tell us more about it?
@GIP
I didn’t know that.
From what I gather (from the BBC Panorama programme) the ONF1 vehicle passed the MC at or in “the car park where the murder took place”.
As this is “before” the barrier (which was never in position), the ONF1 person had no reason to speak to this biker.
Slightly later, this same ONF1 vehicle “claims” he was passed by a BMW X5 ascending the Combe D’Ire route.
That means, by ONF1’s account, ONF2, MC and BMW X5 are all “behind him” and a “nearby or at” the car park.
What I cannot figure out is… why does ONF1 say the BMW X5 “had likely” escaped across the hills and faraway ? What is the reason for that statement ?
The BMW X5 “could have” reached the car park (or near to it), turned around, driven back down the Combe D’Ire route…..
….AND turned off that route BEFORE the cyclist WBM reached that “turn off” point (mid way up the Combe D’Ire). That, to me, would seem THE MOST logical answer to the question “Where did the X5 go”.
We “believe” (as this is what we are told) that there was a “single” sighting of the BMW X5. No one “above” ONF1 saw it (ONF2 and MC) and no one “below” saw it (WBM).
And so…. ONF1 makes this “unlikely” claim that the “most logical route” for that vehicle to take is “over the hills”.
To me, that is such a bizarre thing to conclude.
And if you run with it…it becomes “more strange”.
Ask yourself, what is ONF1 actually saying.
ONF1 “assumes/knows” ONF2 (and the MC by default) did not see the BMW X5.
So by at the time they passed through the car park, the X5 would have had to have left.
ONF2 says (via Eric) they saw “nothing” at the car park…and only SM ascending the hill.
WBM (and I assume SAH) further down the hill also didn’t see the X5
From that, we “know” that the X5 had to have departed “prior” to the shootings…and so “by default” was not involved. It COULD have “dropped off” a person….but we are left with “did the killer then walk off” ?
He/She arrives in a car…is dropped off….kills….and then walks away ?????
We are either…
A. Being lied to.
B. The X5 never existed.
C. A witness saw this vehicle and isn’t saying.
Or (what the hell) D. ONF2 and the MC drove through the crime scene after the event, did not offer assistance, departed, the X5 had driven down the Combe D’Ire and turned off before reaching WBM…as did ONF2.
Example D does give explanations to the questions “why was the MC riding so slowly when it passed WBM”, “Why did the MC not come forward immediately” and “Where the X5 logically went…which isn’t Over The Hills”
Have a think about that.
It is a crime in France not to offer assistance, by the way.
James
My guess would be that the forestry worker picked up some information during his interviews by the gendarmes. This was pretty early on and I guess that the gendarmes didn’t really believe that the X5 came down the combe (if it existed at all) so he almost flippantly suggests that it went over the hills, as indeed it could have done.
It might be unlikely but not impossible. I take your point about driving slowly over the col however if he was crazy enough to drive fast up the combe then he might drive like a frenchman over the col. Not all of it is edge-of-a-cliff stuff either.
There is always the possibility that said forestry worker was actually a tad diligent, despite knocking off just after three. Having been crossed by a large speeding 4×4 he may have thought “WTF is he up to?” and pulled over and/or looked in the mirror.
Even by waiting for a few minutes before continuing his descent (or simply driving down slowly) he would be able to confirm/exclude the possibility of the X5 immediately turning around at the parking. That is however just speculation on my part.
Personally I think, as I suggested above, that the X5/X3 passed the motorcycle at or near the parking and proceeded, one way or another, to the original area called Le Martinet on the map. There it paused for an indeterminate period of time.
If pushed I would go for C or D (or possibly a combo of C and D).
It presumably is not a crime to drive past a cyclist flopped on the ground resting, or a child playing. Those were the initial thoughts of WBM and it took some considerable time for him to change his mind, much longer than it would take to drive round the hairpin and through the carpark. In addition the car was revving its engine and slightly moving, usually signs that the driver is still alive. . . .
But the inconsistencies might bubble through his unconscious causing him to slow down. . . . until he sees someone else coming up the combe.
Maybe this is why the prosecutor mawkishly praises Brett Martin, no one else stopped to help.
@GIP
You see, this is where I am at also (a mix of point C and point D).
If we take what we have, we are somewhere correct.
Although I do note, we know very little.
That is quite something. At the early “crazy days” of the this thread, people were shouting “its a cover up” without actually knowing any facts.
Now we know more, we can say “it is a cover up” (or rather, there is “less known of this known…than we think”).
So this makes this a “bizarre” crime indeed. It’s “bizarreness” is yet to be known….
…and that may be “the crime” or “how it was investigated”.
P.S. GIP, great to here some great subjective debate and investigation.
http://www.france24.com/en/20150430-berlin-spied-france-usa-nsa-german-media-elysee
German intelligence helped the US National Security Agency (NSA) monitor the French presidential palace and foreign ministry officials as well as members of the European Commission, Germany’s Sueddeutsche Zeitung reported Thursday.
Multiple bodies found in Lake Annecy
http://www.ledauphine.com/haute-savoie/2015/04/30/disparu-du-lac-le-sonar-suise-va-entrer-en-action
This morning; The gendarmerie took hold of the investigation and search operations
and will benefit from using the Swiss sonar, waited in the day. A highly sophisticated and very accurate instrument, which had already allowed to find six bodies in the lake of Annecy, in a month, including those of a young couple remained submerged for SIX YEARS.
A body located by the sonar will be drafted this afternoon
Always behind the curve this is where I am at .
I still wonder if SAH was househunting the photo outside Flat iron building which was for sale, a drive by of Mr Beewicks house that the builders were working on, was he going to sell or let it when it was finished ,possibly ?
The story went that the builders clocked the BMW because they were expecting the owner who drives a BMW and they were behind on the work , as the two BMW’s are a different colour that is odd in itself .
It would be interesting to know if he still owns the house or if it was sold or let .
Then there is a house up the CDI somewhere the COAL House or something like that the forestry were selling .
I did wonder if that could be what brought SM there asked by his estate agent uncle or even his FIL who also deals with property to deliver keys for a viewing and who supposedly gave him the route to CDI (it is said SM was in the wrong place I know )
An innocent meeting that for some reason ended up the way it did.
I find it curious that there is the photo at flat iron ,then a sighting by the builders at the time the owner is about due to arrive ,and what looks like it could be a meeting by SM and SAH .
I think property hunting might explain it and SAH trips out , I also think it might explain the mystery visitor at the campsite, for instance SAH was negotiating a deal to sell his St Macaire house we know that a neighbour of that house who lives away in Africa had previously wanted to buy it to extend his garden but the price was to high, if SAH was trying to raise cash for buying it would be logical to contact this person and do a bit of hard negotiation.
I obviously cant know if this person was in France at the time for that to happen it’s just something that fits in with the property idea .
(It just occurred to me David John Abiodun was african he was at one time a director of a oil and shale company FIRST OIL & GAS LIMITED. according to info on sys’s page, as far as I know living in Salford though.)
Other thoughts I had on the property idea are the Shoppi that Sylvie was at (remember Sylvie ) was run by an someone from Irac who could have had contact with SAH in person or online even and tipped him off what was available around there .
(Another curiosity is that shoppi man also has or had a MB business I don’t think he still has the shop.)
The Sylvie enigma I have not found a place for there was something odd about that.
James 30 April 3.56pm
Example D
is intriguing and not exclusive to the limited information put out via the Annecy prosecuter’s office.
If the “new” motorcyclist is held in such estimation an in no way involved in the multiple massacre, it is still possible as you have suggested that he rode through the scene immediately after the flight of the slaughterers but although driving slowly with the eyes of a shit house rat did not want to risk stopping.
If he witnessed the aftermarth of the slaughter perhaps he thought it best to keep stum.
NFFB
“Your explanation must be run-of-the-mill.”
You mean ‘route de moulin’?
No, my explanation is ‘route de combette’.
🙂
Very long fuse, GIP.
IT’s the MC that slowed down on the ride back, not the X5.
@Pink: Remember that quaint little pharmacie that morphed into a glass condo and pharmacie complex? At the very least, there is a real estate angle to this story on the Mollier-Schutz-Morange side. However, senior al-Hilli had real estate investments too, which were part of the estate question. Many parties in this story and subsequent ones have investments in area real estate.
@James: It’s still a coverup.
@Michael Norton: Don’t drink the water from Lac Annecy.
The French do seem to have found rather a lot of bodies in that body of water.
Very heavy rain and floods in Savoie and Haute-Savoie over the last week, washing roads away.
http://www.ledauphine.com/savoie/2015/05/02/pres-de-300-metres-de-route-emportes-par-l-arly-attention-danger
Not the sort of conditions to be driving a BMW X5 with road tyres over the mountain horse tracks
but if you had fitted off-road tyres, you would have more grip.
i wonder if the ONF guys noticed if the BMW X5 was thus equiped, working outdorrs in the mountain forests, they would more naturally notice an off-road equiped vehicle than they would its colour.
Whatever tyres it was fitted with, why was that X5 speeding up this narrow road up to the Martinet? Was it perhaps to get there before somebody else? If we could only see that P-R that was made of the driver. Was he FRENCH-looking?
Here’s a thought.
Apparent two of the forest guys helped to inform the artist to draw the sketch of the motorcyclist ( from Lyon)
Have these two forest guys recognized the Lyon motorcyclist , say from a line-up,
have they been stood face to face with him as they were, when they were speaking with him
at the time and in the place of the Slaughter of the Horses.
In short,
are the two forest guys who gave the artist the information to make the sketch,
absolutely convinced that this person of impeccable history, is the person they stopped and spoke with on that day
and have they convinced a court that he is the same person?
scorpio or Skorpion with silencer ?
http://www.ledauphine.com/france-monde/2015/04/30/en-demantelant-un-plan-stup-la-police-tombe-sur-un-arsenal
MN
Re the forest guys and the motorcyclist.
All good questions. We are just not told any specifics.
However we have the 95% excluded figure from the gendarmes. You can ask yourself if you were Le Proc or Lt Vinneman, what checks and answers would give you 95% confidence?
My guess is that they have been a little more thorough with the background investigation than they were when they tried to roll over the hapless Eric D.
I suppose that the 5% remaining is due to no witnesses to confirm his absence from the scene during the critical time window (and maybe a lingering doubt about him not coming forward as a witness).
I am just going with their probability and trying to see where it leads.
James
Maybe “the wrong BMW” doesn’t work for you, so what about “the wrong break” with a male driver and two female passengers?
GIP
It could be anything.
Wrong BMW. Wrong make. Wrong cyclist.
Looking back at what the police have said (and have not said) I still don’t get how the killer was suppose to escape !
….and the MC that was found a year and a half later said “I didn’t follow the hype” !
Unbelievable !
The weeks very heavy rain is already claiming lives
http://www.ledauphine.com/france-monde/2015/05/02/deux-enfants-de-quatre-et-six-ans-trouves-morts-dans-une-riviere
They would need a good break. It has rained Forty days in the Savoys. And James is perfectly right.
It could be anything. Perhaps the killer never escaped, he is still there, he knows Le Proc will never get him.
Hey GIP (dig the slowness), buy a Ford Mustang, buy a Chevrolet. The X5 didn’t even exist.
Do you think this geezer, Bernard Bajolet
might know what happened at The Slaughter of the horses incident in September 2012?
He became head of DGSE six months after chevaline
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directorate-General_for_External_Security
http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conseil_national_du_renseignement&prev=search
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Bajolet
He seems to have been around a bit
Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Bosnia & Herzegovina, Algeria, Italy, U.S.A.
those sort of places.
I wonder if Bernard Bajolet knows the “new” motorcyclist who popped up and down multiple times to Le Martinet on 05/09/2012?