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sorry looking up I see you are already on to this one – apologies
Neither of the reports I have read indicate, how with all that protection, the accident happened. This it seems is pretty typical. The media issue FACTS as they are given and never investigate or afford real detail. I hope it wasn’t a passing car accidentally sent him over the edge or faulty brakes or anything like that! What we can be certain about is that there are a lot of unhappy people about the way the Iran talks are going and want to sink them. Despite excellent European medicine, he has decided to pack up and go home, so in that sense at least, the hawks will be pleased whether they orchestrated it or not. Good job he’s not in the Tour de France though, as those poor sods just have to get back on and keep pedalling.
I wonder if Sepp Blater will try and waterboard Kerry, while he is starpped to a Swiss hospital bed?
I shall have to come back later and read all the entries here.
The Haute-Savoie certainly appears a place to avoid if you are accident prone.
Don’t cycle near any combes or gorges with steep drops, don’t go near anybody with a gun, don’t go camping and keep out of Lake Annecy.
I cannot believe the outrageous number of murders, gorge and cycling deaths in the French alps, as well as the risks of going to a campground. This is not normal — far from it. I am familiar with similar terrain elsewhere. The greatest risks usually come in ski season, from avalanches.
I don’t know how long it takes to clear winter gravel from the roads in the alps, but that may be why John Kerry had his fall, or just going too fast down a hill and didn’t make the corner. Lucky he wasn’t on a motorcycle.
Don’t sit in the back seat of a car with it driving over the edge.
“Robbery gone wrong” theory
The following permutations are possible:
a. Deliberate targeting of Al Hilli (Mollier was the unintended victim). This would require prior knowledge of the possibility, or at most the probability (not certainty) that SAH would stop at that spot, and an estimated timing (necessarily vague, given the likelihood of photo stops, detours etc). There would almost certainly have to be collusion with the receptionist at the camping site. But if the receptionist was an accomplice, why would she have highlighted her guilt by revealing her conversation with SAH? Alternatively, it is possible that the robber overheard the conversation between the receptionist and SAH. But since the conversation would have been in English, the robber would have had to have a fairly high degree of linguistic proficiency, which seems unlikely. A third possibility is that SAH already knew the robber, perhaps though meeting him on the campsite, and had inadvertently revealed to him his planned itinerary. SAH was known for his garrulous and outward going personality, so this theory has some plausibility. But it would also require SAH to have inadvertently revealed not only his itinerary, but also that he would be carrying on his journey cash and / or items of value worth stealing, which seems inherently extremely unlikely.
b. Random targeting of Al Hilli (Mollier was the unintended victim). For this to make sense, it would require the robber to be lying in wait for anyone who happened to stop at the parking space at that particular time of day. SAH might be an attractive target, given that he was driving a relatively expensive car, and it might be presumed that he had a significant amount of cash on him. But if this was a simple mugging, SAH would most likely have handed over his wallet, given that the lives of his nearest and dearest were at stake.
c. Deliberate targeting of Mollier (Saad Al Hilli was the unintended victim). Why should a cyclist be carrying anything of value on him? Cyclists travel light, with just enough money to cover incidental expenses en route. It is therefore highly unlikely that Mollier was targeted deliberately with the aim of relieving him of a few tens of euros in cash.
d. Random targeting of Mollier (Saad Al Hilli was the unintended victim). For this to make sense, it would require the robber to be lying in wait for anyone who happened to stop at the parking space at that particular time of day. But for the reasons given in c. above, a lone cyclist would not be a particularly interesting robbery target.
e. Deliberate targeting of Al Hilli and Mollier together. This requires that Al Hilli and Mollier knew each other, had arranged to be at that spot at a given time, and had something of value that could be stolen. But there is no evidence to support the view that they knew each other, or were meeting to transact a valuable item of business. Therefore this hypothesis fails.
None of the five scenarios analyzed above are convincing. Moreover, if the killer’s motivation was robbery, not murder, why did he arm himself with (?) 27 rounds of ammunition (3 cartridges)? A robber may well have used a gun to intimidate and ensure compliance, but would he have come prepared with sufficient bullets to commit a massacre? Unlikely, in my view. Therefore I doubt that this was a robbery gone wrong: more likely we are dealing with a psychopath whose motivation is to kill, not rob, his victims (or an assassin with a specific target).
PS: thank you, GIP, for introducing me to the cartoon. Very good!
To come prepared for a gun massacre, with pre-planned escape route ( on foot or mountain bike)
then to fill one chap with seven shots, multiple shots to each of the other adults, shoot and bash a child, leave no usable prints on the balls or cases and out-fox the entire FRENCH legal outfits for more than two years, without a sniff of tumbling you.
Not a lone nutter but at least one but probably more highly skilled slaughterers.
This massacre was purposeful and it was not for a few Euros lifted from the back pockets of the victims.
Maybe John Kerry had been nicking truffles?
http://news.sky.com/story/1493399/farmer-jailed-for-shooting-dead-truffle-thief
A farmer has been jailed for fatally shooting an alleged truffle thief in southeast France.
Laurent Rambaud was guarding a truffle patch on his fields in Drome when he killed Ernest Pardo as he walked his dog.
The 37-year-old told police he opened fire on Pardo because he feared for his life and suspected the victim was an armed thief.
Pardo had previous charges for theft, and was known for selling truffles at local markets, where the delicacy can fetch up to $1,000 (£653) per kg.
Gilbert Emery, prosecuting, had been sought a 12-year prison term for Rambaud over the December 2010 killing.
He claimed the farmer was “conscious of his actions” and had “an obsession of chasing away the (suspected) truffle thief, of catching him and of eliminating him”.
Rambaud, who was initially charged with murder, was convicted of manslaughter – a lesser charge – and has been sentenced to eight years behind bars.
His lawyer, Alain Fort, had told the trial how the farmer had been confronted by armed thieves before.
President of the region’s young farmers’ association and a volunteer fireman, Rambaud had grown frustrated following a series of thefts on his land.
17 shots hit human target
4 SAH, 4 IQBAL, 3 Suhaila, 1 Zainab, leaves 5 to Mollier
Only four of the 21 fired didn’t
Prosecutor confirmed Mollier caught by the car
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/french-alps-murders-former-commando-5305057
I see you got the truffle reference, MN.
Now back to the Mirror article. The commando who was “house hunting”, apparently for a safe house, happened to find the one where the al-Hillis girls were under guard, randomly, in 2012, soon after the girls were returned from France. I don’t buy that paradigm.
Would the ex-marine paratrooper happen to be one Patrice Menagaldo of France? Did the Brits ever share the name of the safe-house-hunter with our Eric, or any of the details of the incident, or did the French intelligence services do their own surveillance of the safe house somewhere in the UK?
Is this why Eric says he can’t believe Menagaldo would have suicided over being questioned in the case? Eric says Menagaldo was taken in for routine questioning because of Menagaldo’s link to Mollier. Was it really routine Eric? I don’t buy that paradigm, either.
Why would the UK refuse to cooperate yet again with the French investigators over this incident, unless this is a matter of national security?
Would a lone butter have the resources to go after the girls in the UK, and if this was for some kind of rush from committing a mass murder, why risk being caught photographing the safe house in another country?
Sorry, the lone nutter theory is a fail. This is a well-funded operation meant to look like a feud among mountain men, or a robbery gone wrong.
Note that the Mirror does not mention the date of the arrest, nor the nationality of the photographer. Who was the arrested commando working for?
Lone butter: Spell check.
Hi all,
I havent posted here for a long time and must confess have only glanced here rarely since. However John Kerry’s crash today on a bike in the region, resulting in him being removed from the Iranian nuclear negotiations caught my interest sufficiently to look here.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/john-kerry-flown-to-swiss-hospital-after-bike-crash-1433067509
The above article states that his accident happened near Scionzier, Wikipedia (link below) says Scionzier has an elevation between 1500 feet to 6500 feet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scionzier
The official story is that he hit a kerb and had a leg injury resulting in a broken femur, also emphasizing that ‘he didnt lose consciousness’.
MSM such as this Daily Mail article hasnt added much to the official line:-
He said X-rays at a Swiss hospital confirmed that Kerry fractured his right femur in the 9.40am incident.
“The secretary is stable and never lost consciousness, his injury is not life-threatening and he is expected to make a full recovery,” Kirby said in a statement.
Kerry was taken by helicopter to Geneva’s main medical center, HUG, after apparently hitting a curb with his bike in the French town about 40 kilometers southeast of the Swiss border.
Paramedics and a physician were on the scene with his motorcade at the time and provided him immediate attention. They quickly decided to order the 10-minute-long helicopter transport.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3104480/Secretary-Kerry-flown-Swiss-hospital-bike-crash.html#ixzz3bjsKC7St
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
**********
Has anybody managed to find photos/videos of the helicopter in Scionzier?
http://cheignieu-la-balme.over-blog.com/article-la-truffe-du-bugey-101730578.html
If there had been truffle-poachers feuding in the haute-savoie, where were the dogs? Any dog DNA at the crime scene? Dog DNA is unique to each individual, just as in humans.
The truffle in this article matures in October to December. Presumably the hunters check on their sources as the truffles reach maturity. And presumably this isn’t a legal activity on government land. Forestry officials would be the ones to enforce these rules.
Is everyone in those small towns a volunteer firefighter?
Mr Juicy
Re Deliberate targeting of Mollier
He was riding a new 5000 Euro racing velo, bought for him as a present by his girlfriend.
If he was targetted for robbery, it wasn’t for the change in his pocket.
Interestingly, the so-far-untraced RHD BMW 4×4 could have easily have carried away a bike, if the motive was simple robbery. If that was the case, it would have made sense to leave it behind after things went so badly wrong given its traceability.
P.S. Re PA – you are welcome – excellent cartoon – could be a time burgler – a decade of prior strips . . . .
And a wiki http://pennyarcade.wikia.com/wiki/Fruit_Fxxxxx_2000
If John Kerry (71) had been mountain biking alone over the Bauges
and had broken a femur, he would have likely died, he has already had surgery on his pelvis.
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/05/31/europe/geneva-john-kerry-bike-accident/
this is a very serious accident in a young person, never mind a septuagenarian
Mr Juicy
Re Deliberate targeting of Al Hilli and Mollier together
You wrote “This requires that Al Hilli and Mollier knew each other, had arranged to be at that spot at a given time, and had something of value that could be stolen”
This only requires that someone believed those things were the case.
The (incorrect) belief that large amounts of cash were kept under the bed was the motive for the tragic robbery-gone-wrong in nearby Lathuile.
The imminence of the visit to the bank meant that they either had assets with them (not likely given they were staying at a campsite) or were about to do a deal. A potential robber could have viewed SM as likely a courier. If he stopped at Le Martinet and started talking to SAH, that could have triggered the attack.
There was a quite recent case from (I think) the next valley where an on-the-run American fraudster couple were funding their lavish lifestyle by selling locally jewellery that they had shipped over to circumvent money laundering monitoring.
http://www.seattletimes.com/business/mastros-name-was-on-mailbox-in-french-village/
@MN: A broken femur is a very serious injury for anyone, quite correct. Recently an Olympic speed skater broke his femur in a motorcycle accident. If he hadn’t been in peak physical condition, who knows what could have happened?
http://www.brandonsun.com/sports/breaking-news/olympic-speedskater-denny-morrison-plots-his-comeback-after-motorcycle-accident-304976221.html?thx=y
@ GIP
Very good points, GIP. Thanks.
Yes, the value of his racing velo does indeed provide a motive for robbery, and makes this theory a lot more viable than I had previously thought.
Yes, the theory that SAH was engaged in some kind of transactions involving money or valuables, which could have made him a target for robbery, also deserves closer scrutiny. I recall some early reports saying that SAH made some unexplained trips from the camp-site in the days prior to the killings, which might have been related to such transactions.
You mention the untraced RHD BMW 4×4, which I feel could hold a key to the mystery. But if it is relevant to the case, then the pendulum of probabilities would swing back in favour of the idea that the crime had its origins in the UK, not France. The weapon used strongly suggests that the killer was a local person, but if he had accomplices in the RHD BMW 4×4, these would most likely have been British. It does not seem plausible that an exclusively local gang would have used a RHD vehicle!
The other point about the RHD BMW 4×4 is to recall the (to me, anyway) strange reaction of SAH’s elder brother when confronted with the existence of this vehicle in the Panorama interview. His body language and verbal response raised the suspicion in my mind that he might have something to hide. (But Zaid Al-Hilli creates that impression throughout the interview, not just at that point.)
The Swiss angle, which you also mention, could be relevant to the theory that SAH was carrying money or valuables. I was not aware of the idea that he was possibly planning to go to Switzerland to deposit funds on behalf of his children. Another theory (which does not preclude the first) is that he intended to go to the Swiss Bank where his father had deposited much of the family fortune, with the aim of blocking his brother’s access to those funds, or of establishing his own claim. The caravan in which he was travelling contained several PCs with stacks of documents, according to the French prosecutor: these could have been prepared in support of the approach he was going to make to the Swiss Bank.
I would imagine that the Right Hand Drive 4 x 4 BMW is another of Eric’s RED Herrings.
He will wait to just before the next court case /incident and pull it out of a hat to the admiration of the adoring FRENCH press, then it will be shown to be a red herring, a week later.
@ M
so about three miles from Le Martinet,
very curious indeed.
@ Q @ MN: OK, I’m putting the “lone butter” theory back into the fridge for the time being as it was starting to melt a bit under the heat of skeptical enquiry and may even have been turning rancid…
I checked the Mirror article you referenced, and see that it is lifted from an article published on 10th March in Le Parisien here:
http://www.leparisien.fr/espace-premium/actu/les-dossiers-inconnus-de-chevaline-10-03-2015-4589535.php
The Parisien article seems to me to be based on careful and deliberate background briefing from sources close to the French prosecutor, probably shortly after Eric Maillaud’s press conference of 6th March. It covers:
a. The (alleged) failure of the PC Plods across the Channel to check the story of the ex-soldier who was taking photos outside the house where the daughters remain under police protection (and their apparent failure to notify their French colleagues until two months after the event);
b. The decision of the grandmother to bequeath money to the two daughters (and the unhappiness which this had caused other family members, notably her own son); and the suggested that her computer was bugged;
c. The belated discovery of the passports, hidden in clothing of SAH.
All these sensational and highly newsworthy snippets were evidently put out in a deliberate and calculated way, it seems to me. The briefing, as well as other things such as the leaking of the family photo, seems designed to deflect attention away from France and back to the UK. The most natural explanation for this would be the embarrassment and frustration of the French authorities following the collapse of their best line of enquiry (the motorcyclist); but I would not exclude that it could perhaps be indicative of a desire to cover something up. Of course, it’s the latter possibility that gets our collective juices flowing.
I know that all of the above will already be known to most seasoned visitors to this discussion, so apologies for reheating old rice!
The matter of Iqbal’s bigamous marriage still intrigues me. She cannot have done it because she needed a UK visa, because she could easily have applied for a Schengen visa to join her parents in Sweden. Having done so, she could have divorced Jim Thompson at her leisure. Also, why would she shortly after her bigamous marriage to Saad return to the UAE in order to divorce Thompson? Surely, if her physical presence were required for a divorce, it would be required in the US.
To my mind, the only explanation that makes sense is that she wanted to disappear: after filing for divorce from the UAE, anybody looking for her would have been looking in the UAE rather than in the UK. (Perhaps she even elected to keep the Thompson surname after the divorce.)
One thing that must have added to Saad’s worries about his brother is that this bigamous marriage would have held tremendous blackmail potential for everybody who was aware of it. Jim Thompson certainly knew about it, and Zaid has claimed in an interview that he also knew about it. Thus, both of them could have made life very difficult for Iqbal and Saad.
Peter, more likely Iqbal or whatever her real name was,
was probably working for one of the secret services of America as was Jimmy.
Jimmy was looking after her, letting her rest between missions.
Yet mysteriously they both died in vehicles on the same day but in different continents?
FISH
I don’t see the “robbery gone wrong” theory has possible (GIP’s and everyone’s notes above).
The “lone butter” still has legs BUT the “butter” managed to pick a local guy that has a “intriguing” background….
….AND a whole family whom all have “intriguing” backgrounds.
What are the chances of that !
A “mistaken identity”. Mistaking one BMW for another. Mistaking one cyclist for another. Or combinations therein. That would be amazing complicated to investigate (not knowing who was being mistaken for whom)….
..AND then to have attacked those “mistaken parties” with the most “intriguing” backgrounds !
I still hold Mollier as “the most likely” primary target…
…but why take so much ammunition to shoot one man.
Had the gun and ammunition just been acquired ?
(surely a gunman would need to “test” the weapon before finding his target)
Had it hidden up there ?
Each possible theory, is so easy to “shoot down” (pardon the horrible pun).
The mind boggles (still !).
@James
” The “lone butter” still has legs BUT the “butter” managed to pick a local guy that has a “intriguing” background…. ”
Precisely, with a French nutter you can expect him to shoot at random any passing target. The background is irrelevant. And of course these savages carry as much ammunition as they can.
What were the chances of Mr Kerry falling on a kerb only twenty miles from the Slaughter of the Horses? Ask TV. Close to non. And yet it happened. Was his bike as valuable as the one Slyvain MolliEX was riding on that fateful day? That would be an other co-incidence.
@M.
The Maestroes couple were apparently arrested a few weeks after the Alps killings. The place they where renting was close to the crime scene but also close to the holiday house of the British cyclist. They were selling jewels for cash I reckon. Do we know what kind of jewels were found in Claygate?
@Mister Juicy
Dry runs are frequent before multiple killings. So the passports issue is also a red herring. Ikbal could hardly have been travelling with a British passport if her citizenship was been challenged.
At the end of the day, only the lone nutter theory makes sense. And holding a Swiss weapon close to the border he must have been FRENCH.