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@ Mr. Juicy,
“whom he most certainly did not know.”
That does not preclude either of the al-Hilli women from knowing him.
It also does not preclude a Set-Up-Meet,
where none of the al-Hilli people were know as persons to Sylvain moillier.
there could have been an intermediary.
If not an intermediary,
an introducer, who then left.
Juicy, I have made the observation in a past life, Martin did not see Mollier he saw the cycle, which accounts for him thinking the cyclist was resting somewhere out of his direct line of vision.
The cycle seen in The Express photo (most agree it is the cycle) is on the road and it is to the side very near the bridge over the culvert, this is its resting place and FITS with MAILLAUD and MARTINS description.
Maillaud used the words ‘jetez dans un coin’, it is on the floor and to the side.
James, you refer to the forestry vehicle above Le Martinet seeing Mollier – there is no official reference to this.
You are most likely referring to this:
https://deadzone61.wordpress.com/tck-forum-public/comment-page-14/#comment-7827
Extract from my discussion with JMD (May, 2014). I’m making a remark about the X5, that it does not exist
JMD: I have strong doubts about x5 . Gendarmes too.
MAX: WBM saw 4x4VERT coming DOWN. Later (october) police said 4x4vert=ONF … Is this still correct?
JMD: It was a Visa Citroën (fourgon) a green one. The drivers are identified.
MAX: Identified as ONF? This driver MUST have seen both SM and SAH … correct?
JMD: They crossed sm but not sah who arrived First on martinet place. Sm arrived later.
This was NEVER in the Press and not a quote from MAILLAUD.
The introducer could have meet them in Chevaline, and not travelled up to Le Martinet.
@ M.
I have not seen the Express photo – do you have a link?
If the Maillaud and Martin descriptions can be reconciled with each other, and with the photo, then so much the better. It seems that the bicycle was abandoned on the road in haste (this impression is reinforced by Maillaud’s use of the word jeté).
The point is that the location of the bicycle, and the way in which it was left, suggests that SM was confronted by the killer outside, and slightly upwards from, the parking area where SAH and his family were situated. It suggests that SM had not stopped to engage any family member in conversation when the attack started, because if he had, the bicycle would have been found somewhere on the parking area, not in a place closer to the bridge, over the culvert. It suggests that SM was ambushed on the road, not in the parking area. The fact that he was shot in the back and ended up in the parking area near SAH’s car suggests that he was running for his life, away from where the bicycle had been abandoned, and in the direction of SAH.
Another scenario is that SM had already cycled past the lay-by, across the bridge over the culvert, and round the next bend to meet his killer. Realizing that he was in mortal danger, he then turned and cycled back across the bridge before abandoning the bicycle and running into the lay-by, pursued by the killer.
An examination of the bicycle and in particular its tyres, as well as precision about the position in which it was lying in the road, might be helpful in verifying one or other of these scenarios.
@ Michael Norton.
The hypothesis described above (ie that SM was ambushed in the road outside and slightly upwards from the parking area) does not absolutely preclude that SM knew SAH, or any member of his family, but it tilts the probability strongly (IMHO) in that direction. You can posit the existence of an introducer or intermediary, but this does not change the fact that my reconstruction leaves little room for the idea that SM and SAH were talking together, or engaged in some transaction, when the killer struck.
A proponent of the view that they did know each other could theorize that SM had already met SAH in the parking area, transacted his business, and then remounted his bicycle, before being confronted by the killer. But in that case, why was SM apparently continuing upwards, towards the bridge, when the obvious choice would be to go down the hill, in the direction of Chevaline? This explanation seems improbable.
Juicy, you are forgetting the shooting started whist the car was at the top end of the carpark/clearing, the cycle opposite. Go to Deadzone61 sidebar, the photo is there.
Peter, the book is worth a read, you will need a yellow marker to point out anomalies and where it was written before the British Coroners report and such.
The well dressed man who thumped the car is put into Europa not Solitaire, remember the ‘Balkan’, you will be disappointed.
Thing is accept it all or just pieces of it, what is revelation and what is fiction, a poorly written piece, such a shame.
You will have a grin at one of the Acknowledgements.
You will find of interest his comment regarding Suhaila who regularly accompanied her daughter on excursions to the Continent and Britain !
“This does not rule out an organised assassination, but we have not found anything which confirms it.” (Eric’s quote from the TP book).
You can see how you can arrive at the “lone nut”.
Or rather “the lone nut prepared for an ambush”, which is curious.
Taking a weird angle (from an inspiration of Peter’s).
Say S. Mollier was there by chance.
And S. al Hilli was there by chance.
It was an ambush.
And it clearly went wrong.
Of course we don’t know “which bit” went wrong.
But say someone was hired to kill SAH….and SM got in the way.
Clearly there are “beneficiaries” to that sequence.
Money “could be” the motivation ? It has happened before.
And where it “went wrong” was…
….SAH tried to escape (SM was in the way) and everyone got killed.
2 husbands in one day !
As I said, it’s a “well out there” thought.
@ Mr. Juicy 10.47 am
Well, as I have been saying for some time, we need to know what bicycle
the local cyclist Sylvain Mollier was riding that day.
Let us say ( as we are expected to understand) that Sylvain was riding his
brand new multi-thousand-euro road bike, paid for by his common-law wife Claire Schutz,
why would he be going up to Le Martinet on that very expensive new road bike, Eric Maillaud has said he was a passing cyclist, you can’t be a passing cyclist by going up a hill and coming back to same way, you can’t be a passing anything with a road vehicle if the track effectively terminates for road vehicles at that point.
However an off-road landrover type vehicle could continue its journey, also a mountain bike could continue its journey.
So, perhaps in Chevaline, an introducer, subtlety indicated to Sylkvain, that the al-Hilli family were the correct party.
The al-Hilli family may have been posing for photographs.
Sylvain rides his mountain bike up the combe, nothing out of the ordinary a solo mountainbiker riding up the combe, he may be going over the top for a proper bit of mountainbiking.
As Sylvain passes le Martinet he dismounts, leaving his cmountainbike in the woods then walks back down to the Le Martinet to meet the al-Hilli family or at least one member of that party.
His intention would have been to have his meet, then mountain bike over the hill and away.
He would then have been a passing cyclist,
apart from the fact they were slaughtered.
James, if you have the book maybe we can share notes ?
M.
Haven’t got the book. The quote comes from the Daily Mirror article posted by Tim Veater somewhere up above.
Made me think.
Adding a bit to the observations of Peter to what Eric has said.
If it is (*could be) an organised crime…but there isn’t anything that confirms it is, then what is it ?
Taking Eric’s comment on face value (and in good faith) he appears to be saying
1. Mollier “happened” upon this place …and so did Al Hilli
2. The ambush appears “more than” a “lone nut”.
Clearly this criminal acted got “way out of hand”.
So what was suppose to happen AND to whom (…and why).
Say it all got out of hand. Instead of Al Hilli being “car-jacked” and was then “shot dead” in the ensuing chaos.. everyone got killed because a bystander got involved and the situation spiralled out of control.
It’s certainly one (speculative) way of looking at it.
And I admit it is bizarre.
I can see why Mollier is “preferred” as the “primary victim”.
Local man, local area, unknown reason for being there that afternoon…
…possible local killer.
But Al Hilli being the “primary target” is bizarre.
If it was ZAH (and the motivation was “money/inheritance”) then what does he actually gain ? The wife and children stand to gain the deceased father’s “slice”. ZAH is back to square one.
Mrs Al Hilli does have a strange background. She is from Iraq….but moves to the UAE. I get that. In the UAE is works as a dentist.
Then, for some reason she moves from the UAE to the USA and marries (some have said, for a “green card”) a “redneck”. But she doesn’t go to work as a dentist.
One year later she leaves (I guess the streets aren’t paved in gold in Louisiana). Now she’s back in the UAE. Once again works (well “trains”) as a dentist.
Saad arrives in the UAE. Switches on the charm. Brings her to the U.K. and (for the second time in her life) gets married.
In the U.K. she yet again “trains” as a dentist. But the surgery is miles away from her home (and she isn’t listed as a dentist there….even though her employer and friend is a friend of hers and says she worked there).
Saad isn’t the “highly paid” IT expert it appears. He’s clearly a bright engineer…. but not a “£1000 per day” whizz contractor.
He does however have a share of his parents “fortune”. And whilst it is “multi millions”, it’s certainly “not bad” !
Just wild speculation on my part.
It doesn’t seem unusual that foreign dentists work in the U.S. as dental assistants:
http://www.indeed.com/forum/job/dental-assistant/REQUIREMENTS-D-FOREIGN-DENTIST/t27538
Requalification takes time and costs money. Many want to work in the field in the interim, if they are able to requalify at all.
@ M. Many thanks. The photos on the Deadzone 61 site are very helpful. A few quick comments:
(1) In the photo, the bicycle is not in the middle of the road, as stated by Martin. But neither could it be described as “thrown into a corner,” as stated by Eric, since it appears to be partly on the road, rather prominently, in a diagonal position.
(2) It’s unfortunately impossible to be sure exactly how the bike is lying, and which way it is facing, as it appears to be covered.
(3) Given the discrepancy between Martin’s statement and what the photo shows, one wonders whether the bike may have been moved before the photo was taken.
(4) Anyway, the fundamental point remains true: the bike has apparently been thrown down on the road, which is not how I would expect a cycling enthusiast to treat his expensive velo. If he was cycling to a meeting with SAH in Le Martinet, the natural thing to do would have been to park the bike somewhere in the designated parking area, not on the tarmac road.
(5) Finally, to your point @ 11.25 about the relative positions of the car and the cycle when the shooting started: yes of course the car was at the top end of the carpark/clearing, but the cycle was not exactly opposite. The photo on the Deadzone 61 site shows that the cycle is a few meters further up the hill, beyond the lay-by: SM had actually cycled past the lay-by before coming to a halt, for whatever reason. I took account of that positioning when sketching out my reconstruction of events.
It goes without saying that the French authorities are far better placed than any of us to work out what happened since they have all the forensic data, which we do not.
@Q
From your post….
I think “Nash, in Northwoods, Mass” sums up the situation.
“You people, should stay at your home countries helping your people…. Why you want to come to the US? It is not brilliant at all what you think about dentistry here. It is very expensive and complex to get licensed with foreign diploma…Immigration is tough right now, and local Americans are concern about their job security to…
Working as a dental assistant (if you can get any visa on this basis)is not good idea and will not open the door for becoming the dentist here….”
@ M 07/06/2015
“Death Certificates are normally available at the Mairie, in this case it would be Doussard as contrary to ‘Tuerie de Chevaline’ geographically Le Martinet is in Doussard as observed by a local at the time.
They do not show the cause of death, just location and time.
There is no equivalent of a Coroners Inquest in FRANCE. The results of the autopsy form part of the ‘secret d’instruction’ and are therefore not made public (thanks MN you made me look it up)”
If the death certificate in FRANCE does not show cause of death.
How would anybody know if they died of natural causes.
Died at their own hand
Died at the hand of another.
@ Mr Juicy, 9 Jun, 2015 – 6:09 am
At least in German intelligence parlance, there is a technical term for this type of obvious surveillance. That term (“Pressobservation”) loosely translates as “squeeze surveillance”. Heavy-handed surveillance of this kind is not supposed to discover the target’s secrets, but rather to let him or her know that they have been rumbled and that they had better stop thinking about doing what you assume they might be contemplating doing. As a relatively menial, semi-skilled job, it is often outsourced to private contractors (many of whom, it is worth noting, do have an SF background).
Thus, no, I don’t consider it particularly strange that these guys parked up in a neighbour’s driveway and even told that neighbour whom they were supposed to be watching – no doubt in the hope that said neighbour would convey those news a.s.a.p. to their target.
Anyhow, I have now bitten the bullet and bought “the” book. I shall let you know if I come across anything interesting in it.
Juicy, the cycle is adjacent to the no vehicles sign before the bridge over the culvert, I am not referring to the cars resting place but its initial parking, nose in at the top end of the clearing, confirmed by Maillaud
[mods-cm-org – spam filter casualty at 13:43]
Mr Juicy
Re your post 6 Jun at 1:52 am – Personally, I think that the magazines were only loaded with 7 rounds, to avoid the potential issues discussed. Thus for me the likely number of rounds available would be 21 (or 22 if there was one additional round chambered).
To clarify, my view on the condition of the gun relates to how it was when it first came into his hands. It would effectively be a ‘guarantee’ that there was no possibility that any forensic data from it existed on a database somewhere.
I agree that it would have been cleaned and tested.
In another recent post you ask “why on earth would SAH choose to take his large vehicle up this narrow, pothole filled road, at times bordering dangerously close to the river” etcetera.
Even worse, from that perspective, he let Zeena ‘drive’!
I suppose it depends on what you are used to in terms of roads, I don’t think that the road, in and of itself, posed any unreasonable danger.
The suitibility of Martinet as a jumping off point for a ‘walk’ is more questionable given the wide age range. Maybe SAH wanted to stroll in the alpage and thought the road would get them most of the way up. Seems a bit of a ‘hike’ to me though.
I think the campsite receptionist has a few questions to answer, given she was local, she should have known the height they would need to climb.
Good in parts, but the book some of your questions will be answered.
MN dead is dead, suspicious death enquiry is opened, Google Death Certificates in FRANCE
@James: As Iqbal discovered, thus her departure from USA.
Tim Veater makes an important point:-
“And still, after a huge British police effort (apparently) still not a word or opinion after two years nine months.”
Why is that?
Of course, there was the appeal for the RHD BMW. But the french were bounced into that by the media, with the UK appeal being a carbon copy.
Has there ever been an inquiry this large and costly with such minimalist media communication?
Correct me if I am wrong but I don’t think it is a requirement of the joint enquête.
To date, my thinking has been that the ‘controlled’ UK approach was better than one with ‘loose talk’ that seems to result in people being thrown under a bus.
Anyway, is the ‘joint’ part of ‘joint enquête’ a fiction?
@ Peter. Great, thanks. That’s an interesting angle I had not considered before. I can’t think of the equivalent term in English, although I am sure it exists. A blunt instrument, though, given that the same result could be achieved, with greater certainty and precision, by a quick phone call or message delivered through an intermediary. But one would have to have operated in those circles to know for sure. Could you re-confirm the spelling of the German word “Pressobservation” because nothing came up when I googled it. Xiexie.
@ M. Rest assured, you and I are on exactly the same page regarding the location of the cycle and the parking position of the car when the shooting started (ie the initial position). My reconstruction is, I hope and believe, consistent with all the known forensic facts released by the French or with what can be reasonably deduced as evidentially reliable. But that does not mean that the reconstruction is certainly right, or that it is the only reconstruction that can be made from the available evidence.
SM’s bike is a “cold spot” in this case. Minimal facts, and one grainy photograph. A number of contributors to this discussion (Tim, Michael et al) have repeatedly pointed this out, of course. Contrast this with the attention lavished on other aspects of the case (“hot spots”). My hunch is: focus on the “cold spots” particularly when things don’t quite add up.
@ M.
Re Tom Parry. “Buy the book, some of your questions will be answered”. I’m pleased to report that I have purchased the book on Kindle. It only costs GBP 6.99, which is great value.
In one of my posts yesterday, I made some disparaging remarks about a Daily Mirror piece written by Tom Parry, and by implication about his book. I then realized, with some embarrassment, that TP could well be a reader of this forum, and that my comments may have infringed the rules of respect and courtesy etc, not to mention his human rights. Tom, if you are reading this: no offence intended and none taken, I hope. Anyway, I’ve bought the book, and actions speak louder than words!
@ Good In Parts
Thanks. 7 rounds seem slightly more plausible to me. I recall that different experts on the various TV documentaries on this subject came to different views on the 7 v 8 question. An inventory of the number of douilles at the crime scene should settle the matter. It seems clear from your comments on the provenance of the gun that it is probably untraceable. The best hope from an investigation point of view is that the killer procured it from the original owner at some point before the killings as part of a premeditated plan, and that this fact may eventually come to light.
On SAH’s odd choice of route that afternoon, you are right: it could all be explained by his quirky personality and the bizarre advice of the local receptionist. People sometimes do and say things for unfathomable reasons. “Cock up” seems more likely than “Conspiracy” – particularly in the absence of any hard evidence (as distinct from factoids) to prove the latter.
@ Mr Juicy
I did not realise that the term “Pressobservation” was so esoteric 😉
I have only found a single passing reference to it, where it is misspelled as “Preßobservation”
http://www.fotocommunity.de/pc/pc/display/34910020
I believe that it is originally derived from a football term. In German, the terms “Pressing” and “press” denote man-marking your opposite number on the pitch really, really closely.
http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Pressing
http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/press
“Conspicuous surveillance” might be the best English translation
https://policestalking.wordpress.com/2012/07/15/an-introduction-to-police-stalking/
but its original meaning is far narrower. It originally means tightening the “box” of pursuers surrounding a surveillance target so much that the surveillance team almost (or literally) step on the mark’s toes.
Etymology aside, this is a very common practice that you can see all the time. For example, the nearest mosque is only a few hundred metres from my house. It permanently has an unmarked car with two plainclothes guys inside parked on the other side of the road. They don’t interact with the mosque’s visitors, they just stare at them, letting them know that they are being watched.
The eX-Legionnaire -paratrooper-soldier-fireman-friend of the family Schutz-love interest of the sister of Sylvain.
Why take 11 months to release his name if he was not involved?
Why not be specific about where he last worked?
Is Patrice Menegaldo, on Eric Maillaud’s list of suspects, yes or no?
Has it one year on been determined if he was murdered or other cause of death?
In what way was he a friend of the family Schutz?
It has been said by Eric Maillaud that the reason Patrice Menegaldo was interviewed was because of his connection with the family Schutz, was this connection, primarily with the father of Claire, were they in the same armed force at the same time.
In short were they buddies in the same armed service at the same time, is their relationship a long one?
Did Patrice Menegaldo attend the Sapeurs-Pompiers,
adjacent to the Pharmacie Schutz-Morange?
Mr Juicy
I think the weapon is probably untraceable from what the killer expected to leave behind as evidence, namely bullets and expended cartridges.
If I am correct, witness marks on bullets and cartridges from the weapon used were not recorded on any forensic database anywhere. Sifting through ‘brass bins’ and bullet traps should not lead anywhere either.
Also they were apparently clean of DNA (other than contamination by a gendarme) and devoid of fingerprints.
Apparently though, the weapon almost was traced in the sense of determining its serial number and then potentially cross referencing that number with Swiss Army records.
It appears that when the killer was beating Zainab with the butt of his gun, a fragment of the wooden grip (or maybe the magazine extractor grip) broke off. It seems that even these items were marked with the serial number of the gun. My guess is that they only got part of the number.
My next guess is that there is a connection here with the man in Switzerland who was kept in prison for several months. Either this implicated him or ended up exonerating him. He may have been a dealer or collector.
However, I doubt that even knowing the name of the officer it was issued to and their place of residence since then would lead to the killer. I don’t think there will be a recorded transaction linking them. It would still be worth doing as there may be some pointers.
The use of this weapon implies to me that the killer did not plan to run away and disappear but to continue doing whatever they do.
Brilliant, Peter! It’s seldom that I learn so much from a single post. Many thanks.
Tom Parry refers in Chapter 18 of his book (“Sixth theory: industrial espionage”) to the surveillance in exactly the same terms as in the Daily Mirror reporting, identifying the brothers as the targets. On timing, he speculates “this was prior to Saad working for SSTL, but might still be linked to both his professional and ethnic background.”
He goes on to say “When I contacted Mr Murphy recently, he refused to elaborate on these initial comments.”
The concluding paragraphs record Maillaud’s frustration at the minimal level of cooperation he has received from the French and British secret services in response to his enquiries. Maillaud’s verdict: “The secret services were aware of Saad, they knew the name, but perhaps they decided there was nothing interesting about him.”
@ Michael Norton: Is Patrice Menegaldo on Eric Maillaud’s list of suspects, yes or no?
Yes!
I am sure that Tom Parry recorded his interview with Maillaud in French and then translated the words of Maillaud verbatim into English. So the quotations in the book should be accurate and authentic.
Parry quotes Maillaud as saying “We have a real suspect. I am referring to the Legionnaire from Ugine who committed suicide.” Later, referring to the suicide note, Maillaud quotes Menegaldo as saying “he couldn’t deal with being considered a suspect capable of carrying out these killings.”
I think that we can confidently conclude, therefore, that Menegaldo is on Maillaud’s list of suspects.
On the other hand, it is a fact that, when interviewed by the police in 2013, Menegaldo was not under caution and thus not considered at that time as a suspect, just a witness. But his suicide note changed all that.
Since the interview was clearly on the record (and Maillaud must surely have known this), I am puzzled that he should have given Parry so much information, only to make a more nuanced statement after Parry’s published account of the interview. I can only assume that, when he read his own words in black and white, he had second thoughts about the wisdom of having spoken so frankly on the record. I find it very difficult to believe that he was under the impression that this was an unattributable / off the record briefing. Perhaps he needs to strengthen his media relations team.
Realising that he had gone too far with Parry, Maillaud then tried to correct himself, telling Metronews that Menegaldo “n’a jamais été considéré comme suspect dans cette affaire.” And telling by Le Figaro that he was “intrigué par le profil et le suicide du legionnaire” but that “cela ne fait pas de lui un suspect”.
I believe that Menegaldo is still high up on the list of suspects, but that Maillaud rather wishes he hadn’t been so explicit about this to Parry.
I have said that I think there is a good chance that Sylvain Mollier & Claire Schutz and their baby were living in the Pharmacie Schutz-Morange, in Grignon at the time of the death of Sylvain.
Not many of you wish to agree with me, preferring to agree with Eric Maillaud that they lived in the house of Sylvain in Ugine, which would be handy for his work in Cezus.
However, we have been told that at some point, Sylvain took three years paternity leave from Cezus, in order to be a house-husband-father.
We have not been told when this paternity leave commenced but we are expected to believe that it started before Sylvain was slaughtered.
If Sylvain, was indeed on three years paternity leave at the time of his demise, he would no longer need to live within walking distance of Cezus in Ugine, it might make more sense to live in the Pharmacie Schutz-Morange, in Grignon.
This is the business that Claire Schutz co-owned and ran and it was her place of work and her financial future, later, after the demise of her Common-Law-Husband, Sylvain, we are expected to believe she became the sole owner of this business but not necessarily the owner of the building.
If you go on Google Earth, on the side of the building of the Pharmacie Schutz-Morange, Grignon, there is an apartment door, above is a window with a television aerial,
in the roof are five velux windows.
So, somebody is living in an apartment upstairs in the large building of the Pharmacie-Morange.
http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.manageo.fr/fiche_info/300691839/17/amicale-des-sapeurs-pompiers.html&prev=search