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MN, they lived in UGINE, documented just about everywhere. Claire left work to relieve him of the child for a few hours, he went cycling, according to an elederly neighbour he did this often. Actually her not being amused when he did not return home on time becomes logical if she had to return to the business for the last few hours, they closed at 7pm, to csh up and lock up.
By the time of Louis’ birth the Pharmacy had been in her name for about a year.
His elder boys were also spending time with their father and the newborn, there was suggestion that they were going to move in with him and Claire, that needs space. The property in Ugine was rented. (I have no doubt the custody of the two older boys was shared, Mollier continuing to have an amicable relationship with his remarried ex-wife and her husband).
It was reported he negotiated the three year paternity, some use the word ‘won’ probably taken from the French term ‘gagne’.
The Tuesday afternoon before his murder he was seen and spoken to by ‘Pascal'(?) a friend who saw him pushing the baby in a buggy in Ugine.
Women often return to work when the newborn is 6 weeks old, it can be difficult at first, Claire as the boss could no doubt make the necessary arrangements to cover her absence.
Interestingly for the year end of 2012, the fisrt whole year she had owned the business, the wages/social charges are almost 400K Euros, the Schutz-Morange set-up had up to 9 employees, Claire would have needed to carry some of the staff forward to cover her absence due to the pregnancy, birth and first weeks care, then when Sylvain was murdered.
I have my doubts that Thierry Schutz, her father covered for her as in such circumstances I am not sure I would want the whole world and his wife staring at me.
Q, as in all medical professions, Pharmacists also have an oath of confidentiality towards their clients.
The blood spatters/splatters, this was started by THE DAILY BEAST, how reliable a source that is, I will not comment.
Rizet claims Sylvain was shot twice in the back, and cheek, we are told via Maillaud, via Tom Parry there was another shot ‘between his eyes’. Rumour says Saad once to his back, reports from the Coroners inquest say he was shot in the torso and head a total of 4 bullets, resulting in 7 entry and exit wounds.
Peter, I find your ideas of events running far more in line with mine then anyones elses I have read. Zaids reputation was being slaughtered by his younger brother, the elder claiming to Tom Parry he has been exonerated on all the accusations flying about.
Whilst Zaid goes for the jugular of Maillaud regarding his very public character assassination, much of the newsprint has been due to the friends of Saad telling their story of Saads story.
@ Peter 8:41am
Thank you for elaborating your thoughts in such detail. Full credit to you for taking this as far as you have.
You may disagree, but my feeling is that you have to decide whether you think this is a pure “honour killing” or a crime of greed masquerading as an honour killing.
If it is the former, then it would be a very exceptional example indeed, because as I am sure you know, the overwhelming majority of honour killings, including those amongst Middle Eastern communities, are committed against women, usually for refusing to enter an arranged marriage, having sex outside marriage, becoming the victim of rape, etc. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing It is entirely plausible that Zaid would have been offended by the disrespect shown to him by Saad. But this fact alone, and the inheritance feud between the two brothers, would not normally have been sufficient grounds for the obliteration of his Saad’s entire family. I think we can therefore discount the idea that Saad and is family were killed for pure “honour” reasons because the circumstances don’t fit.
If the latter, then it is not really at honour killing at all, for the motive of the killer would be personal financial gain, through the elimination of Saad. This brings us back to the idea that it must have been a conspiracy with Zaid, and for this to be true you have to believe that Zaid is guilty. Of course you may hold that view, but if he was part of a conspiracy with other family members, it seems to me all the more unlikely that he would have drawn attention to himself (and potentially to the other conspirators) by agreeing to the interview with Parry.
While not downplaying the importance of the Iraqi roots of the al-Hilli brothers, we should also remember how westernized they were. Zaid had married a Western woman. Saad had lived all but 5 years of his life in the UK, although he entered into an arranged marriage with an Iraqi woman. Unless I am mistaken, there is no indication, direct or indirect, that they were a closely integrated part of a “clan” or extended family or that the extended family, in the form of their relatives in Iraq, were intimately involved in the affairs of the two brothers. Neither brother had any good reason to publicize the dispute within the extended family, particularly Zaid (if we are to attach any credence to the allegations that he forged the will and attempted to obtain a credit card fraudently to access his father’s account).
You allude to the “uncle in Geneva” and I am not sure if you are thinking of the gentlemen at Credit Agricole, or someone else. If the former, you will probably know that there is a great deal of publicly available information on the internet about this person: apart from the fact that he does not belong to the same Saffar family as Saad’s in-laws, it is also very clear, beyond any reasonable doubt, I would say, that this westernized, sophisticated and successful banker is not someone who would conceivably be involved in “honour” killings or murder for cash.
@M
The process for signing over the “good will” of the pharmacy began in June 2012 (at the time of the birth of her child, not the previous year).
No doubt it had been discussed prior to this, but the documents show the transfer as June of that year.
@Juicy
In reply to your reply. Yes, I find it difficult (however, not impossible) to get away from “Mollier was the Prime Target of a local gunman”.
A note to make though is… if CS raised the alarm at approx 5pm and SM had “just arrived” at the Martinet approx at 3.45pm, he had about 1hr and 15 minutes to return home in (at approx 11 mph) IF he was to take the route he arrived via. That is completely “do able”.
However, if he had wanted to spend “some time” at the Martinet, his speed on his return leg would be required to increase.
I can’t recall what time SM set out from Ugine (after 2pm ?), BUT IF he had an “appointment” to attend, and that appointment was for “3.45pm”, then the speed in which he cycled TO the Martinet would indicate the speeds possible by him (and that which the “road” conditions dictated).
In clear, relatively flat, unobstructed conditions (which these were not), he “could have” travelled at 27 mph and completed the distance in a little over half an hour…. AND earnt himself Olympic Triathlon “Gold” in achieving such a unique endeavour !!!!!
The point being…. if he had an appointment at the Martinet. How long did it take him to get there ? And how long was he going to stay there for, before having to cycle home ?
@Juicy…..
Just to make the point a tad clearer.
If CS “raised the alarm” at approx 5pm, she would have known Mollier was “more than” overdue.
At 3.45pm Mollier was “just arriving” at the Martinet. Taking the most logical route, he was a distance of approx 24K away.
Question. At “5pm” SM was overdue. So what time was he expected back ?
Here there is a difficulty. And a resolution (but still a difficulty).
If SM was due back at around 4.30pm AND he was to take the “most logical route” (the one which he arrived via), he would need to be travelling at “near race speeds” along that cycle lane (approx 20 mph).
Note, 20 mph is an “average speed”. So given “halts” and “obstacles”, the “split speed” would need to increase (for parts of the journey), to near “Olympic standard”. This does not include ANYTIME spent at the Martinet.
The only explanation is that, CS was told SM was “in an accident” or “dead” or “in a bad way” at 5pm approx for her to “raise the alarm” officially.
SM (at 5pm) may have indeed been “overdue”, but as I have tried to point out, if he was at the Martinet a 3.45pm and was “due” home at 4.30pm, he certainly liked to “go against the clock”. No doubt the “five grand” racing bike was needed !
@ Mr Juicy, 15 Jun, 2015 – 1:09 pm
Let’s call it (or let me call it) an intrafamily killing then, because that captures the essence of my hypothesis without making unwarranted assumptions about the motive of the perpetrator(s): avarice, hatred, “honour”, jealousy or a mixture thereof.
The available information is too scant to speculate about the killer’s motives, but I feel that I am on reasonably solid ground with the idea of the killer being a member of the extended family. 1. Saad is said to have seemed to know the Middle Eastern man with whom he argued on the evening before the murders. 2. As I have argued, Saad urgently needed to plead his case regarding the quarrel with Zaid with as many family members as he could, or else he would have seen doors slammed into his face all over the world. 3. The pattern of who was killed and who was spared at the Martinet is consistent with somebody who was known to the adult victims covering his tracks. 4. The sparsest assumption regarding how the killer could have known that the family were heading up to the Martinet is that they themselves told him. That, too, fits with the notion that they knew him.
Of course I don’t particularly suspect Mr S. of Crédit Agricole. However, your argument that a westernized, sophisticated and successful banker could ipso facto not possibly be involved in a crime like this sounds suspiciously like Maillaud. Particularly if he lives on the Swiss side of the border, the killer is unlikely to be in a menial job. Not because he wore a suit when he met Saad, but because of Swiss visa requirements. AFAIK, there are fewer than 9,000 Iraqis in all of Switzerland, and they tend to belong to the professional classes. If the killer really does drive a BMW X5, that, plus the suit and the expensive gun, probably even makes him a fairly successful member of the professional classes.
Mr Juicy
You wrote “I am struck by the length and extent of the comments ascribed to Eric . . . . . The Maillaud view is quoted in support of all the key judgements”
Hey, Eric is the ‘gift that keeps giving’, he is articulate and, I suspect, likes the sound of his own voice. I am not suggesting that he actually confabulates, just that he shoots from the hip and occasionally makes an unguarded remark (eg the legionaire).
From a journalistic perspective, he does half the job for them, producing voluminous quotable material. Compare and contrast to the almost monosylabic UK police.
Crucially, for a writer, he provides excellent ‘legal cover’. Quoting ‘le Proc’ in support of all the key judgements is a smart strategy.
James, her compnay was created June 2011, there are many sites confirming this, she continued to trade under the name of Pharmacie Schutz-Morange.
http://www.manageo.fr/fiche_info/533240032/29/pharmacie-schutz.html
Lots of information if you care to look.
The Schutz-Morange was wound-up on the 12 March 2014, no doubt to allow time for the debts, taxes etc. to be settled as has been the case for Julian Steadman and Shtech Ltd.
https://www.companiesintheuk.co.uk/Company/AllDocuments/shtech
The incidence of Claire purchasing the Pharmacy would have been a longterm plan, long before she was pregnant and whilst she had Mollier as a boyfriend, and sometime before she found herself pregnant.
I am not convinced the on-line information was there when everyone started looking, the sites appear to be behind the curve.
Thierry Schutz new company, date de immatriculation: 27th November 2013
Make of it what you will, there is reference to October 2011 on the Mangeo site to Acte SSP
@ M
I didn’t look for the date CS started her company, I apologies.
I did however look the the “legals” in which it clearly states that the pharmacy “Schutz-Morange” was sold in June 2012. That is the legal transaction date.
You see, you can “start” a company when ever you wish…. it does not mean a damn thing !
The “sale” was for the “good will” of the Schutz-Morange pharmacy.
Not the assets therein, the accounts, the pension fund, the company van..
….nothing. And NOT the building either !
Put simpler.
For approx 100K, “Schutz Pharma Ltd” bought the “good will” of “Schutz-Morange Pharma Ltd” in June 2012. It is pretty simple to grasp.
…just to add (for “M”).
A “company” is a legal entity in itself.
A “director” of a company is a person “employed” by that entity.
Being that a “company” is a “entity”, it is the “company” that owns everything. Lock, stock and barrel.
That means, the bank accounts, the assets, the pension fund, the desks, the chairs, company van ….everything.
Selling the “good will” is a way of “selling the company” without technically “selling the company”.
Here… one pharmacy sold it’s good will to another.
Later (it appears), the director of the company which sold the good will, liquidated the original company (it’s assets, it’s accounts, etc, etc…..).
It appears new company was formed by the previous director.
You wrote “The incidence of Claire purchasing the Pharmacy…..”. This is incorrect. Claire’s company DID NOT buy “the pharmacy” from her father.
It is correct to say, her company bought the “good will” form the “Schutz-Morange” company. Later the “Schutz-Morange” company was liquidated by the directors.
Sounds like “nit picking”, but I’m not sure you appreciate the way these things work.
James
SM was good, a very good grimpeur in fact. He spanked WBM so hard on the way up that I started to get suspicious that WBM may have stopped and hidden.
However there is no need to posit Olympic standard performance to explain the concern of his partner. I guess that he didn’t call in half way or on the home run, so she called him. A broken habit and a sequence of unanswered calls would be enough.
As to the cycle lane, it was laid out on the course of an old railway track so unsurprisingly does go through rural land well away from roads. It makes his route from Ugine reasonably predictable as I have advocated.
What is it with the Sapeur Pompiers anyway? Why do they crop up so often in this saga?
James, can you please supply a link, I have looked and cannot find what you are referring to, I agree her immatriculation date/creation date is one thing, she was Trading under the name of Pharmacie Schutz-Morange, that is plain to see.
With a Capital of 100K€
It was also in June 2011, the price of the land for the new build was agreed at the council meeting.
You can see by the overall debts of the company she bought the business for alot more than 100K€ from her father, on this I agree with Mr Juicy.
In 2012 her debts were over 1.5 million Euros.
I am not sure the dates are relevant, other than her taking over the business/purchasing from her parents was a long time in the planning.
I am not familiar with the ACTE SSP, appears to be some sort of signed agreement.
Yep… its posted it further back.
And it confirms the transaction and date.
I searched in French under “TS” and “the Co name”.
100K …and for “good will” only.
James, thankyou for the lesson in business.
GIP
Good points.
But take it that at 3.45pm SM was arriving at the Martinet.
He is well “over due” at 5.00pm (with or without unanswered calls).
So, if he was “over due” at (say) 4.30pm, he is far enough away at 3.45pm to “have to” put in a “good performance” to get home.
I don’t doubt he was going at a “far clip” along his route (slowed maybe by the climb up the Combe D’Ire) ….. BUT (and this is key) Mollier did not know he was going to die that day.
Lets say, he has timed his route perfectly. There was no meeting. It was a “turn around” at the Martinet….and a “rip” homeward. I don’t know the guy, but lets say he’d make 24K’s in under 45 mins.
Who “knew” he’d deviate from his planned route (IF, his route was even previously known) ?
You’d have to follow the guy to know he’d deviated.
AND THEN you have to get ahead of him to ambush him.
Lets say…. he never deviated.
A flat course, with a “mid way climb”. Perfect for him.
He is only “lost” if his previous route was known. And who is to say he wasn’t going that route…on that day ? Mollier can’t say it.
Or….look at it this way.
Mollier’s uncle said “he was familiar with the Combe D’Ire”.
At heart, he is a “climber”.
He has a “flat distance” and then “a climb”.
Homeward, he has “a descent” and then a “flat distance”.
45 mins out. 45 mins back. An afternoon workout.
He’s not a “hobbyist”. He loves cycling.
There are “a hundred and one” isolated spots he can “pull off” into along that disused (and may I say lovely) cycle route. Well out of the way of anyone.
And “there is no time” for him to spend time at the Martinet.
He’s there, he’s gone (and he is definitely not “lost”).
There IS pre planning to this crime. I;ll elaborate later. Just got to take a call (not of nature ! Tomorrows brief).
@ M 1.08pm
O.K. the idea that I have suggested, that Sylvain Mollier left from Grignon, is only one option.
Let us say that a 45 year old man is expected to look after a new born baby for twelve hours a day, six days a week, on his own, away from the mother of the baby.
This would be a unique situation.
But lets’s just pretend, that’s what happened.
Claire Schutz is hard at work in he business of Pharmacie Schutz-Morange, in Grignon,
earning their keep.
Either she just thinks, “Fuck it, I want my baby, they can stick this shit hole”,
then she drives to Ugine, to the house of Sylvain, she emotionally takes her son and tells Sylvain he is off the hook for the afternoon.
Now, this would be credible.
However, if Sylvain rang up Claire at her pharmacie and said, I’ve got to go out on a secret mission, can you close the shop, I need four hours, this is really important, I’ll tell you all about when I get home.
That is a different kettle of FISH.
The Shafia case involved the murders of innocent young girls. There is no honour in “honour” killing. It’s murder, no matter how or why it is done. In the Shafia case, three family members conspired to make the murders look like an accident. They went to great lengths to conceal reality. The family was not devout, yet the lawyers tried to frame this as an allowable act under sharia law. The courts decided that the law of the land is the ultimate authority.
Another family connected to the Shafias had also been offended, so their possible involvement was questioned. Ultimately, they were not found to have been involved.
@M: Confidentiality means nothing when private medical matter are discussed in a public place, i.e. a store, as is commonly done in France. The walls have ears. The other customers have ears. Even pharmacists might casually mention something to a spouse, in the privacy of their home. Not all professionals are honest because they took a pledge…lawyer jokes tell us so. I am not saying this was the case in the story in question.
Less-than-scrupulous business owners sometimes have interesting side businesses. Order a very specific pizza, get a bonus in the take-away box, KWIM? Not saying this was the case here.
Was that pharmacie in Grignon part of the recent pharmacy strike in France? Outsiders want in, and current owners want to keep them out. It’s a closed circle, and very profitable line of enterprise.
Michael Norton….
CS earns more money than SM. It is a “no brainer”.
Natural milk….see “pump and store”.
Non natural milk….see “pharmacy”.
I don’t see the problem with a man earning less (and not following his passion with regards work) taking three years “unpaid” leave.
I work with a female pilot (yes…. ! A female !) and her hubby is looking after their children (I know ! Unbelievable !).
But as he could not earn as much as she does…. he stays home.
AND don’t forget, when we fly, we are “very much away from home” for a few nights (more on “time zone augmentation” flights).
2015 (or 2012 !) not 1973 !!!!!!
P.S. “black people” are no longer called “coloured”. They’re just “people” now !
Cyclists often cycle somewhere on a whim. He obviously had not told Claire he had been on that route before, maybe she never asked, maybe he chose not to say, why kill him the other side of Les Bauges, why assume he was even going to get there ?
If you want Mollier to be the target, it is personal, he was due to meet someone there, so was he late or early ? The murders taking place between 15:32 and 15:40ish
James, you are wrong about the value of the pharmacy and what she is re-imbursing her father, regardless of goodwill, that business was worth at least a million euros.
Otherwise, he worked 11 years at the pharmacy to come out with a value of 100€K ? Really ?
No woman I’ve ever known would go to the police with a photograph of her 45 year old common law husband, if he was merely 1/2 hour late in the afternoon,
that would make her a NUTTER.
James, how do you explain the huge debt ?
Quote from Page 177:
The pharmacy company was reported to be worth more than €1 million…Sometime afte the shootings it was claimed Claire, a trained pharmacist, had inherited the family business in its entirety.
Quote from Page 179 :
It can now be revealed, however, that Claire did not personally possess as much wealth as has been presumed. The French police have always been dismissive that these tensions could have given rise to a murder. If Sylvain was, as alledged, a male gold-digger, then it seems he could have picked a better target.
Monsieur Maillaud told me: “There has been a lot of specualtion about Claire’s money, but in fact she did not inherit her fathers business. He has given it to her on credit, which she reimburses every month.
Looks like this is the main debt plus operating debts
Logic says a business with that T.O. is worth far more than 100K€.
As Mr Juicy says, we can move along, just that she is not an heiress and whilst a nice little earner hardly millionaire material, presently !
Where did Bluebird go?
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2012/09/not-forgetting-the-al-hillis/comment-page-71/
James
I don’t think SM was lying to his family per se.
If nodding and smiling agreeably to your father-in-law when he pontificates on what you should be doing is lying, then half of the country should be called Pinocchio. It is merely conflict avoidance.
He was not lost. He was on the route that he had decided upon. One he liked and had used before.
However I think he arrived earlier than 3:45pm and thus would have not been as overdue as you may think. Plus if he was atuned to women as we are led to believe he would have called her if she was a ‘worrier’.
We know he had a working phone with him, LR called him.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evgueni_Limarev
Whatever happened to the international man of mystery after his 15 minutes of fame? Do tell.
@ M
The company had to purchase a building.
As I said, her company (of which she is a director) bought the “good will” and nothing else.
Therefore, they had to “buy” (lease, or rent) a building ?
Or “other items”.
A “sole in the area” pharmacy is a good business (if you’re willing to work at it). She’s got a good investment for a 100K. It takes work tho.
GIP
A good point ! His phone was working…. when LR made her call to him.
I doubt CS is a worrier. She’s a good business woman. Willing to take on an investment. I doubt she “worried”.
Q agreed confidentaility means nothing if it is not respected, not good for business either, just like all things FRENCH, pharmacies, doctors, nurses even blood/urine labs are private, not good if you cannot keep your mouth shut.
As for errors, statistics back up more are made through the liberalisation of medicines available off the shelf than via a Pharmacist.
@ M
” it was claimed Claire, a trained pharmacist, had inherited the family business in its entirety”.
I afraid Tim Parry has got that completely wrong.
It is public record that “Pharmacie Schutz” ONLY bought the “good will” of “Pharmacie Schutz-Morange” (whether or not TS gave CS the money to do so, is nothing to do with anything).
IF that was the case, you could say CS inherited 100K from her father, under agreement that the money would be used by her to invest in her company ….and for that company to purchase the “good will” of “Pharmacie Schutz-Morange”. That is all that can be “assumed”.
Under “inherietance” taxation, that would be a “gift”.
There is nothing unusual about such a transaction .
If Claire was not a NUTTER,
she would not have gone to the police ( baby in baby-seat in Car, then drive to police station, then out with her baby and into police station)
Claire did not go to the police station with a photograph of Sylvain Mollier, just because he was 1/2 hour late.