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8,071 thoughts on “Not Forgetting the al-Hillis continued”

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  • Reply ↓
    James

    …with regard the “Al Hilli” clan.

    Clearly they aren’t “British tax paying” citizens.

    So they are “bad” people in terms of “paying their way.
    With close to a million euros “hidden” away, there is scope for them to be “ripe” for conspiracy.

    Just to create a balance (re “the other lot”).

  • Reply ↓
    James

    Hey…. it’s a shitter. I pay may taxes in my country of residence.

    The Al Hilli’s didn’t.

    Just to keep a balance. They weren’t “straight”. His father was “bent” and the brothers “profited” from that.

    Just to make sure… I am no on a “witch hunt” for the “Mollier clan”.

  • Reply ↓
    Q

    It is a 37-km bike ride from Cluses to O des Aravis. Google says that’s three hours, three minutes for the trip. It all depends on who’s cycling. I don’t know if John Kerry intended to travel the distance, or get a ride back from the Col de la Colombiere.

  • Reply ↓
    Mr Juicy

    @ Peter 15 June 2:44pm

    Could you please give me a link to any media report about “the Middle Eastern man with whom he argued on the evening before the murders.” Thanks!

    I assume that this person is separate and distinct from the man with a “Balkans” appearance who was seen to have a “heated conversation” with Saad and “tapped on the car bonnet with his hand” before disappearing?

  • Reply ↓
    Mr Juicy

    Compare the following quotations about the relationship between Sylvain and his ex-wife Lydie Ringot and their two sons:

    “Although their split has been described as acrimonious, her ex-husband’s departure has surely left her and her two sons deeply upset”. (Parry)

    “I have no doubt the custody of the two older boys was shared, Mollier continuing to have an amicable relationship with his remarried ex-wife and her husband”. M. (15 June 1.08pm)
    Comment
    On the face of it, these two statements are contradictory. But does Parry really mean to write “acrimonious”? Given what follows in the second half of the sentence, it would make more sense if he had written “harmonious” not “acrimonious.”

    Perhaps Lars, whose role as provider of useful background material is openly acknowledged in the preface to the book, could be asked to clarify this point with Parry.

    I do not know what the sources are for M.’s assessment that Mollier continued to have an amicable relationship with Lydie and his sons.

    But we know that the ex-couple were at least on speaking terms, because Lydie called Sylvain on the afternoon of his death, minutes before he was killed. It has been assumed (on what evidence I am not sure) that the purpose of the call was to discuss the sons’ education. That’s plausible, and takes us back to the whole question of whether Mollier was providing some kind of financial support to his family, either in the form of alimony or out of a sense of moral obligation, and how these payments, if any, would be affected by his decision to take 3 years unpaid leave.

    The obituary, published in the local newspapers, was in the name of “Claire, his love; Leo, Mathis and Louis, his three beloved children; Suzanne, his mother; Alain, Christophe, Francois, his brothers; Sylviane, his sister.” No mention of Lydie. Perhaps this is not surprising, given that Sylvain and Lydie had divorced 6 years previously, according to Parry.

  • Reply ↓
    Peter

    @ Mr Juicy, 16 Jun, 2015 – 3:32 am

    Here you are
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/10404940/Saad-al-Hilli-seen-in-heated-argument-before-Alps-murders.html
    There are plenty more articles dealing with this person, the above merely is the first one that I found.

    This person is indeed a completely different one from the man of “Balkans” appearance dressed all in black, who turned out to be an Italian guest staying at the first camping site and with whom Saad did not argue. Parry made a mistake by conflating the two into a single “Balkans” figure. Some Dutch tourists who were earwitnesses to the argument describe it as having taken place in an unknown language incomprehensible to them. Saad’s limited range of foreign languages makes that Arabic.

  • Reply ↓
    M.

    527 – * 533 240 032 RCS Chambery. PHARMACIE SCHUTZ. Forme : Société à responsabilité limitée à associé unique. Nom commercial : PHARMACIE SCHUTZ-MORANGE. Administration : Gérant : SCHUTZ Claire Nathalie Hélène modification le 06 Septembre 2011 . Capital : 100000 euros. Adresse : 73 rue Joseph Martin 73200 Grignon. Origine du fonds : Achat d’un fonds de commerce au prix stipulé de 1401000 Euros. Etablissement : Etablissement principal. Activité : exploitation d’un fonds d’officine de pharmacie sis 73 rue joseph Martin à grignon (73200). Précédent propriétaire : 445 282 585 RCS Chambery. SNC PHARMACIE SCHUTZ MORANGES. Date de commencement d’activité : 1er octobre 2011. Publication légale : Le Dauphiné Libéré du 6 octobre 2011. Oppositions : Au fonds vendu pour la validité et pour la correspondance ACTIS CONSEILS Synergie Park des Bonnettes 2 rue Willy Brandt 62000 ARRAS. Commentaires : Mise en activité avec établissement principal acquis par achat au prix stipulé de 1401000 Euros.

    Extract from the Bodacc bulletin of the 21october 2011, the global debt is explained, she bought it off her parents, they giving her the loan, which as said in the book is repaid monthly.

    http://french-corporate.com/french-corporate/533/240/032/533240032-PHARMACIE-SCHUTZ.php

    Thanks Bacchus, used your link to get there.

  • Reply ↓
    Mr Juicy

    @ James, GIP, MN and M.

    It seems to be generally accepted that Sylvain left Claire at 2:30pm and Claire reported to the Police that he was missing at 5:00pm.

    (In earlier discussions, eg in the MZT forum in 2012/13, people toyed with the idea that he may have left home sooner than 2:30pm, allowing for the possibility that he may have cycled beyond Le Martinet, and was killed on his way back. But I believe that this has now been largely discounted.)

    Another idea to emerge in earlier discussion was that before reporting to the Police that Sylvain was missing, Claire had driven around looking for him. For example:

    On 11-26-2012 at 14:27:15 Lynda wrote

    “She (Claire) became worried and drove in the general direction of Chevaline around dusk, after calls to his phone were unanswered. She fell upon the blocade at Combe d’Ire…”

    On 6-20-2013 at 22:34:18 Lynda wrote:

    “ It took two hours for the gendarmes to secure the area, putting up road blocks in Doussard and Percheral/Jarsy [as well a small] barrier by the old sawmill…

    … Claire Schutz an hour or so later passed by one or the other ‘barriers’ when Sylvain hadn’t returned home, it was not at the sawmill, in Chevaline she would not have been allowed to get that far by then, but could have been Doussard.”

    Now, unless I have misunderstood something, this suggests that Claire was starting to wonder where Sylvain was long before 5pm, and was worried enough to get in the car (with baby?) to search for him.

    So how much time elapsed between her deciding that something was wrong and her making the report to the Police at 5:00pm? In that period, she would have had to:

    – Make one final attempt to call Sylvain
    – Get herself ready
    – Get the baby ready (or leave the baby with a friend or neighbour)
    – Get to the car; drive around, reaching the barrier mentioned in Lynda’s post
    – Drive back home (presumably) to get the photo (or drive straight to the police station to make the report).

    I don’t see all this happening within the space of 30 minutes. So I conclude either that the 5:00pm time is wrong, or that Sylvain was expected back earlier, perhaps much earlier, than 4:30pm.

    It’s possible that the 5:00pm time is wrong. Lynda has Claire driving “around dusk” and 5pm seems to me a little early for dusk at that time of year, or am I mistaken about this?

    But if 5:00 pm is right, then the speed of Claire’s response to the “disappearance” of Sylvain is curious. For if he told her that he was planning to cycle to Le Martinet, and had left home at 2:30pm, he would not have been “late” until about 4:30pm. I accept that she would have also been concerned about his failure to answer her calls, but would this alone have been enough to trigger her decision to go out looking for him?

    Possible explanations are that:

    1. Sylvain lied to her about his intended destination, knowing that it would take longer than the itinerary and timing he had given her, and intending to call her at some point shortly after the promised return time, to reassure her that he was on his way back and not to worry (a call which he was of course unable to make from about 3:35pm onwards); or

    2. Claire knew or suspected the purpose of his journey, and was therefore already sensitive and apprehensive when he failed to answer her calls (although he would have been able to take those calls any time up to 3:35pm).

    Another curiosity (for me at least) is the precise way in which Sylvain’s last journey is recorded in the final sentence of the obituary:

    “You had decided to try out a new cycle route passing through Doussard and Chevaline, in the Haute Savoie, and you found yourself in the wrong moment in the wrong place.”

    One can think of many other ways to end an obituary notice, perhaps on a note of affection and remembrance. But Claire chose to make an assertion that sounds like the “official” family line on what happened. “The lady doth protest too much, methinks” (Shakespeare, Hamlet).

  • Reply ↓
    Peter

    @ Bacchus

    As you know, a martinet is a mechanical hammer. Apparently, the Martinet parking lot was the site of the village’s first martinet, later replaced by the one further downstream that you mentioned.

    I am sure that the “new” Martinet would have interested Saad as an engineer, but I strongly assume that the family were heading towards the site of the old martinet, in the mistaken belief that it was a good place to start a stroll through the woods.

  • Reply ↓
    michael norton

    It is important to know on what bicycle Sylvain was riding that day. 05/09/2012
    it is important to know from where Sylvain departed.
    It is important to understand the immediate build up to his last ride.
    It could be important to know which police station that Claire drove to at five o’clock.

    If Sylvain was out on a mountain bike, he could have been just a passing cyclist
    ( as Maillaud has claimed) intending to go over the top of the Bauges.
    This would be an all day outing, starting and ending at the Pharmacie Schutz-Morange, adjacent to the buildings of the Sapeurs-Pompiers, who no doubt have radio communication.
    I can’t see him doing this in less than five hours.
    First, the longish, road ride, then the climb up the combe, then the mountain bike ride over the top and the exciting ride down the South side, finally, the short road ride back to Claire and the infant at Pharmacie Schutz-Morange.
    This could have been explained to the public with authenticity,
    however, there has been no hint that this was the case.
    If this is what happened, why would they not have said?
    1)Because it did not happen
    2)something to at all costs keep secret.

    If Claire was running her business in the shop in Grignon and Sylvain was in his home in Ugine, looking after their very young infant, did he get a call to go for a meet, did he ring Claire and say I have to go out, it is very, very, important, can you shut the pharmacie and get back here
    so I can deal with this shit?

    Then he goes off on a very, expensive road bike up an unsuitable potholed combe, that he must come down again ( so not a passing cyclist),
    for the meet, which goes bad.

  • Reply ↓
    michael norton

    Some first thought that the Family al-Hilli were slaughtered by a Xenophobic lone ancient gun enthusiast / nutter
    but that would not account for bumbping off Sylvain Mollier,
    who is very local.

  • Reply ↓
    Peter

    @ James

    There is an easy explanation how the gendarmerie could have arrived at the conclusion that SM was “lost” so quickly and with so much conviction: namely, that he had programmed his intended route into his smartphone using an app such as Strava, but that this planned route did not include the Martinet.

    AFAIK, it has never been made explicit whether he actually answered the call from Lydie Ringot shortly before his death or whether that went to his voicemail. Personally, I tend not to answer phone calls whilst I am cycling at speed, as that would involve stopping, panting down the line and soaking the phone in sweat whilst holding it against my ear. I don’t think that many people would – except if they had their phone mounted to the handlebars and used speaker mode. Thus, if he actually took that call, I would be prepared to bet that he used his handlebar-mounted phone for navigation and to time his trip.

    If he was in the habit of doing so, he would have been able to time his rides (and his ETA back home) to within a few minutes. His being half an hour late returning from such a ride would actually constitute valid cause for concern, the biggest concern being that he had come off the road somewhere and was lying unconscious in a ravine. Remember, this is a part of the world where cars that have come off the road are often only found weeks later. Likewise, I don’t have a problem with the rest of what he is supposed to have done, namely, cycling up the Martinet (easily doable on a road bike, plus there are Strava timings to beat on that hill), cycling up there with the intention of returning downhill the same way he had come (competitive cyclists do that all the time; a friend of mine even cycles the same hill up and down several times every day because it happens to be right on his doorstep) et cetera. Yet the basic riddle remains: If I am right and he had deviated from the route pre-set on his mobile, why did he do so?

  • Reply ↓
    michael norton

    I think Eric Devouassoux was (indirectly) let go from the police force because of his hatred for people from other lands and he was a motorcyclist, who was an ancient gun enthusiast who lived in Lathuile, close to William Brett Martin and the Family Communal-Tournier ( very good match for the “Sketch-E-FIT)
    but he has turned to be innocent of everything apart from possibly being an ancient gun-enthusiast.

  • Reply ↓
    M.

    Written everywhere is racing bike/velo de course, if the offer of a 5k euro gift had been made from a male pharmacist, say a diamond ring, to his girlfriend, none would have thought it odd.

    Its about 20kms from Ugine to Le Martinet, mostly flat apart from the Combe climb, the best bit is just after the parking, around the hairpin he could well have been going further up and then do the return, about two hours.

    There is doubt about the timing of Claire sortie, some reports say she asked friends to have a look, others say it was dusk, which would put the time much later.

    I would like to have seen the French version of the obit and the date it was printed to put it in context, stand alone it is strange as is Ugitech reference, Tom Parry continues with the Cezus angle in his book without questioning.

  • Reply ↓
    Mr Juicy

    @ M

    A member of Velo 101 took this (presumably from the obituary published by the family) and posted it on the morning of 7th September:

    Tu étais pére de famille né en 1967, sportif amateur accompli, en congé parental et travaillant à Ugitech, tu avais décidé de tester un nouvel itinéraire en vélo passant par Doussart et Chevaline dans la Haute Savoie et tu t’es trouvé au mauvais moment au mauvais endroit.

    And added:

    Le ou les tireurs ne voulaient pas de témoins, tu pratiquais ta passion et tu ne demandais rien à personne et cela aurait pu et pourrait arriver à n’importe lequel d’entre nous. Je ne te connais pas Sylvain mais je présente à ta famille et à tes proches mes plus sincéres condoléances. J’espére que là-haut tu as des bosses et des cotes à l’infini. Repose en paix. Et merci aux rigolos de ne pas polluer ce post comme sur l’autre où on ose rigoler d’une tragédie.

  • Reply ↓
    Mr Juicy

    I presume that, having secured the right to take long term leave from his long standing employers, Cezus, Mollier took other employment, perhaps part time, at Ugitech.

    The “negotiation” with Cezus might have concerned things like continued social security payments by the employer, pay in lieu of previously untaken leave, some financial recognition of long service, or the right to return at the end of the 3 year leave period.

    His employment at Ugitech may have been more convenient in terms of closer to home, no shift work etc.

  • Reply ↓
    M.

    The date of Velo 101 is good, if the poster copied it from Le Dauphine Libere, for example, early on the 7th September, probably submitted by the family on the 6th, is this the origin of the WRONG PLACE, WRONG TIME ? Announcements are generally handled by the Funeral Directors, I wonder if it was withdrawn ?

    Interesting. It then means it is the mantra repeated.

    If he was working part-time at Ugitech, why has it not been revealed, I have never thought it was anything to do with Zirconium.

    Did the guy copy and paste, or did he make it up from other information, because I do recall seeing that at the beginning of the various blogs – he did not know the man.

    The first editions of Press articles also said Ugitech, why did Christophe Pellereau, HR then speak out about him ?

    I find it very strange if the family wrote this and deliberately left out Cezus if they were his current employers, afterall he was still inside the 3 months Paternity Leave, the additional leave still to follow.

    Francoise Devred Lorezi was in charge of Ugitech HR at the time, replaced in November 2014 by Laurent Guiot.

  • Reply ↓
    Peter

    SM worked in the shared research facility of Ugitech and Cezus, two companies located next door to each other. That is whence this confusion about his employers arose.

  • Reply ↓
    Peter

    PS: The fact that he worked on the research rather than the production side was also the factor that gave rise to descriptions of him as a “metallurgist” and so forth.

  • Reply ↓
    M.

    Peter that makes sense.

    The Production Line Manager, he could have been, he had worked on the site for some 20 years, progressing through the ranks. Not University educated.

    Through the ranks of Ugitech.

  • Reply ↓
    Peter

    @ M.

    I don’t believe that the obituary cited above was published by the family, and if I had to choose, I would say that SM wore a hard hat saying Cezus rather than one saying Ugitech. However, I don’t think that it matters, because, either way, he would have gone to work in the same place and done very similar things. The bottom line is that, if he was deliberately targeted, the motive is extremely unlikely to have had anything to do with his work.

    Pray tell me, what is your own preferred hypothesis concerning the murders?

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