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No doubt this is “old news” to all you spotters: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/french-alps-al-hilli-murders-recap-4602965
I must read all your observations but these are mine, and please excuse if I am merely repeating points you have already made but here goes none the less.
First a general one regarding Coroners’ Inquests: I can’t help thinking it was time the role and function was reviewed. After what appears was the briefest of sessions, the finding of “Unlawful Killing” would almost be comical if it were not so serious. What were the alternatives, suicide, misadventure? The Coroner had to retire to consider the verdict, this after more than two years of police investigation and news stories.
One cannot help but notice that the proceedings appeared to be intentionally low key. For example there is no mention of a jury which in such an high profile case is I would have thought highly unusual. Clearly none of the parties to the case demanded it or were intent of using the occasion to shed light on events. For some reason, everyone was keeping schtum. Nor predictably was the French Mollier family in evidence it would seem either as witnesses or observers, indicating there is nothing further they need or wish to learn. Nor obviously did the Coroner believe there was anything that they might have contributed to the many outstanding questions including why they were shot together in that remote location.
However despite the the very superficial nature of the proceedings, as so often happens, a few new and significant details manage to emerge. Obviously I wasn’t there but newspapers report the “inquest was resumed”. I assume this means it was opened many months ago and put on hold until police enquiries had been completed. It may therefore be an indicator that the murder hunt has all but concluded.
Note how few witnesses there were at the Inquest – effectively only Zaid. The questioning appears to have only come from the Coroner himself, in other words, although I cannot be sure obviously, it appears none of the interested parties were legally represented. The forum was clearly not intended to illicit any new information or searching light as to cause. It maybe worth contrasting with the Inquest for Lady Diana in which Al Fayed employed top barrister to cross examine witnesses at length. As I said this inquest clearly shows no one really wanted to inquire too deeply.
Only three witnesses it seems: Zaid in person; Brett Martin by written statement – again confirming an agreement not to question in person; and a Surrey detective inspector. Not one of the many others who could have been asked to give evidence under oath. The opportunity lost. This cannot be accidental.
In addition the very significant British post mortem findings were made public. Well some of them. Again the information is only sufficient to give the impression of detail. In fact it is again superficial: no body maps, or exact location of the bullet wounds or the assumptions made on the back of them – type of bullet, direction of trajectory, timing etc. All this nicely brushed over. No need to go there.
But from this we may at least gather there WAS a post mortem examination in Britain by a Home Office pathologist. If so we can be certain it was far more detailed and scientific than the court report might indicate. This is how “Get Surrey” reports it:
“The inquest heard that the postmortems for Saad, Ikbal and Suhaila, carried out at the Royal Surrey County Hospital in Surrey, had similar results to those found by the French authorities.
Saad’s body had seven gunshot wounds, in the head and trunk.
Ikbal’s body had gunshot wounds to the neck and chest, and Suhaila had three gunshot wounds – in the head and neck.
It is thought all three victims would have died extremely rapidly.”
If I am not mistaken this is the first time we have had it confirmed that there was a second (British) autopsy. It says it confirms the French findings. So is this confirmation that yet again the French Prosecutor was lying to us? Only now do we discover authoritatively that SAH was hit by SEVEN bullets and his female companions at least TWICE and THREE times. Not only does Eric Mailaud stand accused of cover up but of factual disinformation.
Then on an arithmetical level it poses the question if SM was indeed shot seven times as reported, we now have no less than 19 certified “hits” maybe more of 23 bullets fired? This is incredible accuracy that only a professional shooter could achieve. It obviously leaves out of the calculation the bullet injury to Zaina. Apart from any other consideration, it definitively rules out Mailaud’s stated opinion that the shooting took place as the car reversed at speed. It confirms the the French version of events must have been an intentional lie.
The many wounds Saad received also confirms INTENT and DETERMINATION to kill him. It may also indicate his efforts to escape and the accuracy of the shooter as he did so.
Now as to Brett Martin’s evidence, the first thing to note this is a travesty of a report. It is so truncated as to be almost an insult to the Coroner process. However it is interesting to note two or three new elements: Zaina falls on her face (again she is “covered in blood” which was directly contradicted by Philip ?); now he sees “smashed windows” – that’s new – but he still smashes the driver’s window; and now rather strangely he gives a precise distance of SM’s body from the car – 30 cm! That’s a FOOT! He’s now saying SM’s body was virtually “cheek by jowl” next to the car. So how to explain the photograph of the position of his body? Even a dumbo like me would be tempted to ask BM “How then do you explain the position of the body in this photograph Mr Martin?” Not only did the question occur to the Coroner apparently, but Mr Martin wasn’t there to answer it.
What could be more significant than than the question, “If BM found SM’s body next to the car, how come it ended up where it did” and “If BM moved it there, why did he do it and why has he not made this clear in his statement to the Coroner?”
Then we have ZAH’s evidence. No longer making accusations as to French causes. No reference to the injustice of being arrested at the request of the French. However we do have the view that SAH was unfamiliar with the area. Excuse me this is directly contrary to previous statements that he had been to the area regularly. Why the change? What is the truth.
“Zaid Al-Hiilli said his brother liked driving holidays and had a caravan.
He and his wife would plan their trips a few weeks in advance.
Zaid Al-Hilli said his brother would not have been that familiar with the Lake Annecy area in France, but that they had visited the area as children.
He does not believe the family had visited more recently than the summer of the murder, in 2012.”
This is so contrary to previous reports – my god there is even a photograph of them there at an earlier time – why was it not challenged, why was it being made? Was it just to add further confusion or to provide a superficial explanation as to why he might be “lost”?
He says Saad met his wife in Ikbal in Abu Dhabi. I know I am easily confused but I thought up to now the storey was they met in Dubai? Does this not deserve explanation?
Then we have the direct contradiction even at the hearing, which again goes unchallenged. Zaid says: “He does not believe the family had visited more recently than the summer of the murder, in 2012.”
DCI Mark Preston says: “Saad Al-Hilli was working as a contractor for Surrey Satellite Technology when he died. He had applied to take annual leave earlier in the year but had been unable to do so. The family had visited a different area of France in June of the same year.”
The police evidence in the person of Mark Preston relates it seems merely to observations on the family photographs. Is this the best the police can supply to a Coroner if the purpose of the court is to determine the cause of the person’s death? In passing however it suggests somehow or other the British police managed to get hold of the camera which one would have expected the French would have kept as a significant piece of evidence. Obliquely just this little fact suggests this was never a typical investigation.
As far as the Coroner’s Court is concerned it is obviously just a window exercise with no serious intent to inquire into circumstances or cause. The more worrying point is that the Coroner’s Inquest is no longer fit for purpose, and citizens can no longer rely on it in any way should they die in suspicious circumstances.
http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/local-news/saad-al-hilli-murder-coroners-finds-8072965
A new light is shone.
Up to now we might have been led to think that Sylvain Mollier was shot first and last, with seven bullets, now we are told that Mr.al Hilli was shot seven times.
This does at least point to a determination to kill all the adults, none are collateral.
Which would leave us to imagine, as we suspected that this was a meeting and that neither party was lost or just passing.
that definitely shows that Eric lied once again or else that the french are too stupid to count bullet holes in human bodies.
it’s also proof that the shooter had to reload once or rather twice (takes time) and that he quite obviously wasnt alone. hence we dont even know whether or not they used two or even more guns for that job, simply because they are liars and they wont tell us the truth.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/french-alps-al-hilli-murders-coroner-4604382
“He revealed Saad had seven gunshot wounds – including bullet entry and exit points – in the head and trunk. Iqbal had five to the neck and chest and Suhaila three in the head and neck.”
Blue….
It says “including entry and exit wounds”.
It doesn’t say “he was shot this number of times”.
The number 7 “entry and exit wounds” could relate to…..
FROM….
1 bullet remaining in SAH and 3 bullets passing through him. (7 wounds).
TO
6 bullets remaining in SAH and 1 bullet passing through him. (7 wounds).
NOTE….
It states “exit wound(S)”.
That would indicate “at least one” INDEED “more than one” passing through him.
DCI Mark Preston, from Surrey Police,
said there is an ongoing inquiry into the deaths taking place in the UK.
About time they got their fingers out and started making serious enquiries.
Why should we put up with the French bullshit?
In a statement issued after the inquest, Surrey Police said the force had provided support to the coroner and would continue to support the French investigation.
A spokesman said: “As part of the Joint Investigation Team, which was established following the deaths, officers from the Surrey and Sussex Major Crime Team have been working closely with the French authorities to progress a number of lines of enquiry in the UK.
“This is a complex inquiry, however Surrey Police remains committed to helping find answers to what happened and continuing to assist the French investigation wherever possible.”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-surrey-29989759
Tiger on the loose in Paris
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30035666
The results of the inquest tell us something, if only indirectly: the killer used military-type FMJ ammunition, as opposed to civilian hollow-point or soft-point ammunition. The overall probs and stats on the availability of such ammunition point towards Swiss Army ammunition being used, which one can obtain cheaply and easily at any public shooting range in Switzerland.
The type of ammunition used is evident from its considerable penetrating power (as opposed to so-called stopping power, which civilian rounds for hunting and self-defence are optimized for). SAH was shot four times, once in the back as he ran towards his car, three times in the head as he sat behind the wheel. Only the round to the back got stuck in his torso, whereas the three head shots exited his cranium.
By the same token, it tells us something about the position of the women in the back of the car when they were shot. Given that Iqbal only had one exit wound out of four shots fired at her (that one probably went laterally through her neck, missing her spine) and her mother none out of three shots, both women must have been bending forwards when they were shot, shielding little Zeena. This heroic act of self-sacrifice would also account for the otherwise conspicuous lack of defensive wounds on them.
Peter
I broadly agree and would like your view on the following points which seemed to me to contradict each other
Firstly, the bullet wounds (implied head wounds to SAH) were described as approx the size of a 2 Euro coin. That presumably was not an entrance wound.
Secondly, there was a post that commented that at least one of the female victims had such large scale “craniofacial injuries” that she could not be identified by her passport photo and had to be identified by DNA samples sent from the UK.
That suggested the possibility of the use of some kind of expanding bullet given the lower number of shots fired at the passengers. However your point about the position of the victims (and their need to shield Zeena) makes me wonder.
If they were leaning forward when shot and there were no exit wounds, how did the extensive craniofacial injuries occur?
Presumably the entrance wounds were in the side and back of the skull and, being entrance wounds, were not massively over-caliber.
I still think you are correct about the use of FMJ ammunition but cannot quite reconcile that with the reported injuries.
Is the full coroners report available?
@ Good in Parts
Thank you for your perceptive questions. To answer the first one, those 2-€-sized wounds on SAH’s face could well be, and almost certainly are, entry wounds. As the bullet penetrates the tautly-stretched facial tissue, the skin around the bullet hole slackens and recedes; shortly thereafter, the brain matter pressurized by the bullet (brain matter is in itself largely incompressible) bounces off the other side of the skull and moves back against the direction of the shot, forcing itself back out through the original entry hole, in what is unappetizingly known as “back spatter”. The mere notion of a 2-€-coin to describe this type of wound describes a largish circular hole, and that is exactly what I should expect in an entry wound to the face.
Owing to the same law pf physics, namely, that liquids are all-but-incompressible, and given that the human skull is entirely filled with liquids, it follows that any shot to the head is going to have very, very nasty consequences at the opposite end, too: the skull fragmenting, eyeballs being popped out, teeth sent flying, the face literally disintegrating from a sudden burst of pressure. Even if there is no exit wound (which would be postcard-sized, not the size of a 2-€-coin), the results will not be at all pretty.
Poor Zainab and Zeena whatever must they have witnessed that day, its heartbreaking.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30053859
Never mind hosting football events
Equatorial-Guinea should tell us who was on the Antonov
that was flying from Prestwick to E-G but crashed on route.
Peter
Thank you for your comprehensive answer.
Do you have any view on the type of training the killer received?
B-R-E-A-K-I-N-G—B-R-E-A-K-I-N-G—B-R-E-A-K-I-N-G—B-R-E-A-K-I-N-G—B-R-E-A-K-I-N-G—B-R-E-A-K-I-N-G—B-R-E-A-K-I-N-G—B-R-E-A-K-I-N-G—B-R-E-A-K-I-N-G—B-R-E-A-K-I-N-G—B-R-E-A-K-I-N-G—B-R-E-A-K-I-N-G—B-R-E-A-K-I-N-G—B-R-E-A-K-I-N-G—B-R-E-A-K-I-N-G—B-R-E-A-K-I-N-G>
Peter forgets in this his answer on the 13th of november at 8 o’clock pm, that the bullits could be specially made, i.e. with low velocity, by an intelligence agency, although he is right that this special feature would give the game away, as it probably have done….to the intelligence community, who knows all about who did it, but is acting to protect the real villain, ie. Israel. Israel don’t my that the game is given away, because it maintains full control [could be through knowledge of what CIA and MI6 have done themselves, or because it possesses information related to various ‘islamists’ that these other agencies are interested in and therefor keep Mum] and is sure that nothing leeks out. But Mr. Brett Martin spilled the beans by talking of ‘people with holes in their head’, he didn’t speak about eyes popping out or brain matter.
Is there a way to read the actual Report of the Coroner or can we only be allowed to read what newspaper let us?
I’d be interested to know if the Cornona suggested the al-Hilli’s were shot outside and later arranged in the BMW
Has France now joined FIVE EYES
if so will it now be know as SIX EYES?
Quote
“Saad’s body had seven gunshot wounds”
http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/al-hilli-french-alps-murders-ruled-8082588
Quote Bluebird 30th October 1:40pm
“We know that Nicholas Mollier-Thomas worked for the communities near Ugine. He was a mathematicina. On his linkedin profile he says that he worked for the french government.
His second flat was near Paris very close to the french intelligence service headquarters DCRA.”
well Alan Turing was also a mathematician as was Gareth Williams,
they both did very important work for intelligence.
MN
What i found about Nicolas Thomas Mollier in facebook contacts and his locations leaves me doubtless that he was a mathematician working in the military tests and simulations of french nuclear devices. IMHO he was a leading french nuclear scientist with contacts to the government, military and secret service. he was a nuclear scientist.
i am having no proof at all about what i am saying here, but what i am saying is the logic consequence regarding the locations where he lived and regarding his fb and linkedin contacts.
So, it seems to me that as he was only 1/2mile from his childhood home ( where his mum lives)
and a mile from where his wife and children live and less than a mile from the skiing where his relative is Maire and leader of the nuclear victims society,
that Nicolas Mollier Thomas was very likely suicided,
somewhat like Mr.Brun
http://yppe.fr/company/2217548
Nice summary of all companies run by the Sylvain Mollier family in the ski area of Val d’Arly.
Note that the Brun and the Mongellaz and the Ouvrier Buffet families are intermarried with the Molliers.
Also Mollier-Thomas family is there.
You can see dozens of companies belinging to that same huge Mollier/Mongellaz/Brun/Ouvrier-Buffet family.
Also note that from the Ouvrier-Buffet family is SM’s grandmother.
That link is a little bit kind of source for MN and others for searching for relations and SM family properties.
sorry: forgot to tell that in the above link in order to find the companies you must scroll down to search that frame:
“Similar companies near Notre Dame De Bellecombe”
@ Good In Parts, 14 Nov, 2014 – 8:23 pm
In my view, the key element of that person’s conditioning is that he is one sick f*ck, an incredibly callous and/or deranged and/or intoxicated individual who has had quite a bit of firearms practice. He could have acquired that callousness severing human heads in some Middle Eastern hellhole, or he could have acquired it masturbating over splatter films whilst living with his mum in some tranquil Swiss village. Who knows? Other than his basic firearms proficiency and his familiary with this particular type of pistol (he almost certainly did not handle that type of pistol for the first time on the day of the murders), the only thing that I am fairly confident about is that he is no commando type.
@ Jorgen7Nielsen, 15 Nov, 2014 – 6:27 am
You could make a reduced-powder-load cartridge, using only precision scales, a five-Euro crimping tool and a little research on the Internet. There is nothing to it. The fact that Israeli Air Marshals were amongst the first to use such cartridges (in order to avoid puncturing the plane’s fuselage), and that those self-same guys, wearing another hat, later used the same type of ammunition for close-range assassinations (because it is fairly quiet, obviating the need for a suppressor) is neither here nor there. The Chevaline killer did not use such ammunition, rather, he used something fairly punchy.
just a little bit about the origin of the mollier-thomas family
http://gw.geneanet.org/herisson?lang=en&pz=seraphine&nz=mollier+thomas&ocz=0&templ=mobile&m=A&p=pierre+prosper&n=mollier+thomas&sosab=10&color=&parents=on&siblings=on&rel=on&marr=on&children=on&asc=on&v=1&t=P
http://gw.geneanet.org/herisson?lang=en;pz=heidi+francoise;nz=herisson+garin;ocz=0;templ=mobile;p=pierre+prosper;n=mollier+thomas
Yet another body found in the river Fier
to the West of Annecy.
http://www.ledauphine.com/haute-savoie/2014/11/16/un-cadavre-decouvert-pres-du-fier
Still not heard of the identity or what happened to the corps
found in the gorge at Chavanod, Wet of Annecy, on 17th September, 2014
http://www.ledauphine.com/haute-savoie/2014/09/18/chavanod-un-corps-decouvert-dans-le-fier-jeudi-soir