The previous thread was overloading WordPress due to the number of comments. This thread has been opened to replace it.
Allowed HTML - you can use:
<a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <s> <strike> <strong>
Just a thought:
maybe it was William Brett Martin
who gave the police the killers description?
@ Q, 30 Jun, 2015 – 4:58 pm
I am familiar with both the literature and FBI nomenclature (which I personally take issue with, because, in my view, calling somebody a “mass murderer” who pulls a handgun and indiscriminately shoots people in some crowded place like a cinema or a fast-food restaurant tends to detract from the supreme evil of history’s real mass murderers – Adolf Hitler, Pol Pot and the like).
Likewise, I am aware that much of what FBI profilers are doing involves personal experience and seat-of-the-pants intuition clad in the mantle of science (case numbers are just too low for any robust inferences to be drawn from them). For the same reason, all attempts to have expert systems assume the role of the profilers have thus far failed dismally. Finally, the criminological folk knowledge that they possess is very much rooted in North America; previous attempts to apply it outside that region have largely been unsuccessful.
Thus, I should be very wary of taking the FBI’s word for gospel in a case like this, especially when it comes to (largely) culture-driven factors such as bragging about one’s intent to kill. Several studies suggest that even the casual use of violence-related expressions such as, “I could kill for a cold one”, is much less prevalent in Europe than in the US.
Anyway, SAH reputedly was the kind of guy who did not take slights lying down, and I have often mused whether both the shallow angle at which he originally pulled into the Martinet parking lot and the fact that he was outside the car when things kicked off could imply that he had just blocked the path of an oncoming or overtaking vehicle and got out of his car in order to remonstrate with the other driver. Who knows?
The FRENCH government now holds 90 percent of shares in Areva,
the firm that builds nuclear reactors,
and 85 percent of Electricité de France (EDF), the utility that operates them.
France Loses Enthusiasm for Nuclear Power – Scientific American
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/france-loses-enthusiasm-for-nuclear-power/
What should be mentioned is that AREVA is essentially BROKE.
I wonder if the judge was the second death in the two climbing accidents on the same day Matthieu Lambert was the one .
The last bit from Scientific American says
“The financial and economic situation is devastatingly bad.”
Hmmn, that will go down like a lead ballon with the FRENCH government.
@GIP
You wrote…
“Parry quotes Maillaud as suggesting that the killer either had departed the scene mere seconds previously or was actually still there when WBM arrived.
I infer that this effectively precludes the Lyon MC rider from being the shooter”.
On the contrary. It could possibly include MCL (and precludes WBM) !
@Peter: I think someone in the Haute-Savoie knows who did what that day, if this was a mass murder, rather than an assassination. If this was a local person, others likely have been on the receiving end of his behaviour.
It could have been something as simple as nearly being run off the road by an aggressive driver that day. Sylvie Lecoeur said the white car was driving fast. For someone who is primed and ready, that might be all it takes.
I don’t take the FBI’s word as gospel. The case I mentioned was never profiled by the FBI.
Evil is as evil does. One death matters as much as thousands to the loved ones who experience it.
If this was a local, someone will have looked into his eyes and seen a body without a soul.
Peter & James
Peter, I broadly agree with your take on SAH’s personality.
However to suggest “that he had just blocked the path of an oncoming or overtaking vehicle and got out of his car in order to remonstrate with the other driver.” neglects the testimony of Zainab that le parking was empty when they arrived.
Additionally we are told that SAH let her younger sister ‘drive’ up the combe sitting on his lap. Unless he really was insane at the time I cannot see him doing such a risky manoever with his child (sans seatbelt) on his lap.
Maybe there was a prior altercation with a motorcyclist or some such but we are told the killer came from above. This is typically ambiguous but whether it was from around the hairpin or from directly further up the combe, it is very difficult to see how an MC could have gotten far enough ahead to fit with the timeline.
Thinking it through, around the track to the footbridge seems too slow but up and along the parallel track then (with the engine off) down and around the hairpin might just be possible with a scrambler.
James, it depends on your interpretation of Eric’s words and your take on the testimony and timing given by the two ONF workers.
To me Eric seems to be signaling that the timing is very tight indeed (and he has done the reconstructions) as he suggests that the killer could have still been there when WBM arrived.
Why the MC was riding so slowly raises questions though.
I think someone may have touched on this previously when discussing ‘the profile’ but it seems to me, looking at the people we are aware of who were seriously under suspicion, that cops and soldiers are a good ‘fit’.
This raises questions in my mind about the structure and conduct of the investigation itself.
To the best of my knowledge no journalist has been brave or stupid enough to ask some hard questions :-
If the investigation is investigating local cops or ex-cops and local soldiers or ex-soldiers, then have the investigators taken steps to compartmentalise their work to minimise a conflict of interest?
Why did they not bring in an outside force at the outset?
There are obviously more questions in the same vein.
I agree, GIP.
One final salient fact in the story I mentioned.
The man in question was a former professional athlete. To this day, TPTB try their best to keep this ugly incident secret. It was all over the media at the time, but you won’t see it in his sports data online. Some people will do anything to protect their small-town heroes, no matter what the truth is.
@ Q, 30 Jun, 2015 – 11:07 pm
I am sorry, I have expressed myself badly. Of course I agree with you that, if this was a local “mass murderer”, it is highly likely that someone knows or at least suspects that he is the perpetrator. Just think of the state in which he much have come home on the day: paranoid and agitated, with bloodied clothing, his pistol bloody and damaged or already disposed of, desperate to burn and/or pour bleach over his clothing before disposing of it, ceaselessly scrubbing his hands, perhaps also shaving his forearms … Likewise, it is extremely difficult to see how he could not have at least hinted at his deed in the subsequent months and years. The one bit that I disagreed with was that he would necessarily have announced his intention of one day committing a crime like this beforehand.
@ Good In Parts, 30 Jun, 2015 – 11:18 pm
Touché, there goes that idea.
I can’t see thast being honourable is a hinderance to be-heading or mass-shooting
In the United Kingdom
members of parliament are described as honourable, yet in the last few years they’ve been in court for buggery, fiddling expenses and not telling the truth and so on.
People are honoured by the queen for conspicous bravery, but that usually means they have killed people.
Then there is honour killing.
So take you pick of what you consider is an honourable man
but bear in mind it does not preclude that person being a murderer.
@ Peter
The problem with “experts” is they seldom agree on anything! Rather like economists, put two experts in the same room and you will get three opinions.
The two experts quoted by you believe that the killer is some kind of local sociopath and not a professional assassin. On the other hand, Professor David Wilson of Birmingham (City) University, who is quoted extensively in Chapter 16 of Parry’s book, firmly believes that the killer “was among the most highly trained hitmen… a “master” hitman who duped Saad into travelling up to le Martinet”.
I am personally unconvinced by Professor Wilson’s theory and agree with you and your experts that the killer was not a professional assassin motivated by payment. I also agree with the view that there was an element of “rage” which explains the brutality of the crime: this factor would fit with several possible scenarios, including the idea of a robbery gone wrong.
Mister Juicy
if they were being robbed, what of,
Zirconium?
@ Mr Juicy
Yes, it could well have been a robbery-gone-wrong. That hypothesis has the additional charm of providing an explanation of why the perpetrator was armed in the first place. A robber would also have had an escape route planned, which the killer probably did, unless he got incredibly lucky.
One confounding issue is the rage and extreme disinhibition shown. Certainly the perpetrator is not that disinhibited all the time, or else he would have been sectioned long ago. Thus, there must have been some contributing factor(s). These contributing factors could have been extrinsic, e. g., the killer being a racist and finding himself confronted with an uncowed Saad and his headscarf-wearing female companions, or intrinsic. Long-term abuse of anabolic steroids, for example, can also lead to episodes of violently acting out on uncontrollable rage. It is not difficult to imagine a gun collector and shooting enthusiast also taking an interest in martial arts and bodybuilding and taking that shortcut to increased muscle mass. For that matter, Rugby seems to be a popular sport in the area, and abuse of anabolic steroids is not exactly uncommon amongst Rugby players.
Would you say that much of the answer rests on whether a silencer was used ?
They did a reconstruction and accoustics to see if Martin should have heard the shots, apparently they confirmed he would not have.
But, in the reconstruction people in Chevaline heard those shots, a Gendarme who was being filmed at the time positively jumped.
I understand the nature of the area, the difference in the direction of the wind will affect the outcome.
Melrose suggests we ignore the son and father who claim they did, not sure what to say about the Foreign tourist interviewed on her bike outside Le Solitaire campsite.
Although, not everyone jumps infront of a camera to be interviewed, were shots heard or not ?
Probably the most obviously expensive, sellable item on view, would have been the bicycle of Sylvain Mollier, was that stolen?
The only way a robbery works with me, is if there was a set-up-meet
and they were all shot and robbed.
robbed of what was passing between the al-Hilli side and the Mollier side.
Attack of Saint-Quentin-Fallavier:
“it is as if I had given birth to a monster,”
says the mother of Yunes Sebastian
http://www.ledauphine.com/isere-nord/2015/07/01/saintt-quentin-fallavier-le-destinataire-du-selfie-macabre-a-confie-a-sa-mere-etre-une-des-causes-de-l-attentat
Just a thought about the Lyon Motorcyclist, he was tracked down via his mobile pinging in Talloires, CCTV footage and his Motorcycle Licence (this means he was likely using a big cylinder machine)
Eric D. let out several little snippets about the man they were looking for, black eyes, black beard, heavier than him, he says he is only 70kgs (!)
He also said about a Harley, although that might be a reference to a large cylinder.
More recently, having an intense gaze, the latter could be one of those comments in hindsight believing he was the killer.
Martin says of the motorcycle, light coloured and moving slowly, with a light coloured helmet, visor down.
This did not pass Philippe Bossy on his way up, it should have done, it also should have passed the retired tourist cyclist who was making a very slow climb, even stopping on the Combe d’Ire. He got close enough to see the legs of the dead cyclist, there were people already there and he was waved to go back down. He went to the Duchers farm, opposite the Bewicks chalet, where Lise described him as having ‘chicken skin’, goosebumps.
Forestry (who gave details for the sketch) say dark coloured helmet, I do not recall their description of the machine.
Forestry at car park, dressed all in black including helmet and visor down, machine white/white and black.
My guess is the forestry sightings are one and the same and a large cylinder machine.
Martins, as long as he is telling the truth, is a different motorcycle, which did not go all the way down the Combe.
Or he saw the motorcycle much earlier and added it into his scenario, none saw him cycling, but he had to say he saw it because the Motorcyclist saw him, one assumes he did not KNOW about the scene he was about to fall upon.
Lyon motorcyclist, could he have been on the Combe d’Ire around 3pm, then seen by Farmer Janin around 4pm, going towards Le Martinet and returning, I think the answer is yes, he wanted to check out the Col de Cherel route from the other side.
In his head he would not have known of the events at Le Martinet, so just went home, of course that depends where and what time he was spotted on CCTV.
United Kingdom classes FRANCE as high risk destination
France
In light of the attack which took place on June 26 at Saint Quentin Fallavier near Lyon, France is now classed as highly at risk from terrorism.
Due to ongoing threats to France by Islamist terrorist groups, and recent French military intervention against the ISIS, the French government has warned the public to be especially vigilant and has reinforced its security measures.
Previous to this their were attacks on 20 December 2014 in Tours, shooting on 7 January 2015 at the ‘Charlie Hebdo’ offices in Paris, shooting on 8 January 2015 in Montrouge, the shooting and hostage siege at a Jewish supermarket in Paris and an attack against three French soldiers in Nice on February 3, 2015, which have been have been treated by the French authorities as terrorist incidents
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3144249/After-terrorist-attack-Tunisia-countries-AVOID-visiting-summer.html
@ M., 1 Jul, 2015 – 1:16 pm
Would you say that much of the answer rests on whether a silencer was used ?
Of course it would. However, the use of a suppressor often leaves forensic traces, the most obvious one being the absence of gunshot residue even on targets who were shot at close range. In short: gunshot residue present –> no suppressor was used. No Gunshot residue present –> either a suppressor was used or all shots were fired from a distance.
SM was finished off with a bullet between the eyes, presumably at close range. I assume that the police did find GSR on him, or else they would not have bothered testing whether anybody could have heard the shots.
The absence or presence of gunshot residue is not the only forensic clue as to whether a suppressor was used. Depending on the suppressor type, particles of the materials used inside (e. g., wire mesh fragments, plastic particles) may be sent flying with every shot. This, too, leads me to conclude that probably no suppressor was used: the pistol used by the killer was common as muck, impossible to trace, but a suppressor would be much rarer and hence much easier to trace. Even if the killer had used a home-made suppressor, it would reveal much about the kind of tools and mechanical skills that he possesses, e. g,, an empty PET coke bottle vs. a neatly-machined, well-designed device.
Just musing on some more odd things about the investigation.
Claude Antoine notes that the interviews of the locals started almost a week after the murders and his at least was conducted at a police station at St Joritz (presumably the rest were too).
That doesn’t seem like best practice to me.
There does not seem to have been a systematic attempt to gather DNA from locals. Nor a sytematic attempt to gather DNA from people known to the Al-Hilli family until earlier this year (FB complains in Parry’s book about an insensitive approach by police to obtain a DNA sample from his wife, earlier this year, that seriously upset her).
The local mobile phone ‘cell’ seems to have been analysed rather late in the investigation. Sure there would be a lot of international phones in the area to complicate matters but, hey, Eric insists a local was involved.
The Lyon MC was not international and he does not seem to have taken any measures to disguise his numberplate, alter his appearance, switch off his phone etc. He spoke to the ONF and obeyed their instructions. His MC was registered and he had a driving licence.
It also seems likely to me that he would have been ‘registered’ in some shape or form via his parapentist activities. The carpark and landing point is in Doussard. The minibus goes from there to the launch point. There is a shop (maybe also a cafe) and training courses are run from there. Plenty of potential transactional history, cctv, witnesses etc.
Surely there would have been a systematic attempt to enumerate all the parapentists and their friends, collect all their photographs and video taken that day (especially from the air).
Really, could one hope for a better cache of data?
When EM calls him ‘honourable’ perhaps what he means is that it is absolutely incomprehensible that the investigators did not cross reference the information at their fingertips for over two years to identify someone leaving an information trail like a big fat snail.
Thanks, Peter. The good thing is that suddenly last night the wiki of the other killer now reflects his crime. A fallen hero, now shown for what he is.
M.
You make a whole lot of sense, particularly the suggestion that Lyon MC wanted to check out the Col from the other direction. I had struggled to comprehend Janin’s version of events (not least because it changed).
Which leaves us with the MC seen by WBM.
Plus the RHD 4×4 seen by that ONF guy.
Wednesday, 05/09/2012
Let us say that the Lyon motorcyclist is the one spoken to by the Forest workers on that day.
Let us say the E-FIT-SKETCH was drawn up by a police artist, from the descriptions given to the artist by the forest workers who spoke with the Lyon motorcyclist.
Let us say Eric Maillaud has more or less eliminated the Lyon motorcyclist from his list of suspects.
Let us say there were more than one motorcyclist.
If the motorcyclist riding slowly past William Brett Martin was not the Lyon motorcyclist,
then the E-FIT-SKETCH is of no use whatsoever?
Lifted his helmet?
Ten minutes later, two of his colleagues driving down the same road saw the motorbike up the hill from the parking area beyond where motor vehicles were not allowed to go.
“They told me they passed the motorbike I had passed at Place Martinet – two bends further up.
“They had words with him because motor vehicles aren’t allowed. So they called out to him and asked him to drive down. They saw his face because he lifted his helmet…he had a bit of a beard.”
This seems to suggest that at least two people acted together – one carrying out surveillance, the other the hitman.
The French prosecutor, Eric Maillaud, has said there is no evidence as to who the hitman or his accomplices were.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24476627