The previous thread was overloading WordPress due to the number of comments. This thread has been opened to replace it.
Allowed HTML - you can use:
<a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <s> <strike> <strong>
Sorry, the last sentence should read:
I am still fairly strongly inclined to the view that, despite all appearances, he is not guilty of conspiracy to murder.
I have been mulling over Max’ scenario. Iqbal planning a murder-suicide and telling JT about it beforehand, in a kind of farewell e-mail, could explain why he suffered a heart attack on that very day. The stress of knowing that something terrible was about to happen and not being able to do anything about it would take a toll on anybody’s heath.
However, what I find impossible to explain is why such a murder-suicide arranged for by Iqbal (and/or her mother?) would have to take place in France and involve a gunman. Suhaila had a PhD in biology, Iqbal was a dentist, they had two pharmacists in the immediate family. Surely the simplest way for either of them to commit murder-suicide of the entire family would have been to cook a special-recipe curry which would have put them all to sleep, never to wake up again.
To be sure, the attempt might have failed, but it certainly would have been much, much easier than finding and hiring a psycho gunman in rural France. Here is nasty little idea, though: Could Saad having to be hospitalised with a suspected heart attack have been the result of Iqbal actually cooking such a “special recipe” meal for him? His deteriorating health, his fear for his life and his agitation could all have been symptoms of chronic poisoning – and I would bet that the gendarmerie conducted at most a cursory toxicology screen, if at all. Screening for exotic poisons is low on the list of priorities when somebody has been found with fatal ballistic trauma.
Mr Juicy,
Don’t forget that Zaid had just taken a day off work the day before. It wouldn’t be surprising that he skipped his usual daily lunch break walk the next day, if only to catch up with unfinished business.
Peter,
We unfortunately have no idea whether full toxicology screening was performed as part of post mortem exams. But the notion of heavy sedatives would work well with some intriguing elements of the crime scene, for instance explain why little Zena remained motionless for eight hours under her mum’s body.
M,
Most of us think of Max as a nice chap (I do), but I doubt he or his peers had any influence on Tom Parry’s book. Poorly written as you say. Even though I always keep TP by the toilet just in case it takes longer and I need to refresh memories.
@ M., 3 Jul, 2015 – 9:31 am
One thing that I appreciate about Max is that he is prepared dispassionately to consider any scenario whatsoever. Conversely, even though I understand your reasons, I think that it is pernicious to declare certain lines of thought off-limits.
I also feel for Menegaldo’s family. Certainly one should treat very lightly in this area, but go there one must, in my view. (As an aside: Maillaud being so quick to point the finger across the channel could also be interpreted as treading lightly. Can you imagine what would have happened in the area of he had said that the killer probably was a local? The place would still be in a state of siege.)
As of now, what intrigues me the most is why the Foreign Legion has not acknowledged him as one of their own, even though both Maillaud and his sister are adamant that he served with the Legion. That is very odd, and it could be a clue as to who the locals think was the killer. If he found himself similarly ostracised before his death – rightly or wrongly –, that might also help explain his suicide and his bizarre farewell letters.
@ Melrose, 3 Jul, 2015 – 11:43 am
But the notion of heavy sedatives would work well with some intriguing elements of the crime scene, for instance explain why little Zena remained motionless for eight hours under her mum’s body.
Now that is an interesting thought. If what happened at the Martinet was prearranged by the AHs – a thought so monstrous that I truly cannot get my head around it – it would no doubt have been considered a “kind” thing to ensure that the children would only register the bare minimum by sedating them beforehand.
@Mr Juicy
— My interpretation of this question is that Zaid, having learned of the death of the French cyclist as well as the AH family, assumed that Mollier had killed the family, then committed suicide. —
I will agree with anybody bij saying that Zaid’s ‘suicide’ word probably is harmless. But it still is a bit weird. I don’t think anybody, after hearing the TCK news and the first reports, would come up with this ‘suicide’ thing. Because where was the gun??
If there was a gun, surely EM & co would have found it near SM’s body, and thus reported it to the journo’s.
So … I was watching from day 1 and never had I even the idea that it could be suicide. So, how could Zaid, surely after having taken in the first reports, still speak of ‘suicide’?
I simply went with the word, and ended up asking myself:
Who’s idea was it to take this ‘sudden holiday’? Was it Saad or Iqbal
—
About TP. I did not gave him any material for his book. I congratulated him with the book (over twitter), and said I was intrigued by this suicide thing which he had on some list of motives (for me it was completely new, I had skipped it in JDS article)
When I mentioned a variant (Not Saad commiting suicide (TP’s idea), not SM commiting suicide (was this Zaid’s idea??)) … but Iqbal setting up a suicide with JT, TP simply replied with ‘Wow’ 🙂 (surely, wow as in far-out)
I will agree immediately that it is a very far-out scenario. I’m currently not working on that
…
I’m more working on a red car, in greenish light, turning into grey. In other words, the X5=SAH idea
Currently I want to know if the SAH last picture (FIB building near stream) was really the last of three pictures. Because I have the impression it could have been the first of three pictures (taken while SAH was going downhill to Doussard)
I need a simple confirmation of the sequence of those 3 pictures. And asked TP, JMD and DR … none of them did reply (yet)
” I’m more working on a red car, in greenish light, turning into grey. ”
Like your avatar?
Let me take you back to the sighting of Saad and the car, Fillion-Robin, says he saw Saad driving, a child in the front passenger seat and two women in the rear.
Where was Zeena, was she told to duck because she was wasn’t in a childs seat or was she already at her mothers feet ?
She was bobbing around in the car, illegally, maybe she was used to being told to hide whilst they were driving around France, it could explain why she didn’t move, not just fear, it was normal.
We are told Zainab was not supposed to get out of the car, we are also told her mother called her back from the stream, could Iqbal and her mother have cooked up a plan to get rid of the pain in the arse Saad ? I bet he was a horror to live with since the brotherly love had turned to hate, even if only in his psyche.
He was blocking any reasonable access to his fathers money, this could have easily been sorted out the Claygate house problem.
You see, there are more angles that are less obvious than those Tom Parry wishes to publish.
Like Max, I had absolutely nothing to do with his book, if Lars has supplied information then that is for him to defend or deny.
Personally, I vouch for none, I know where I was and I know what I was doing, that is as far as I will venture into the abyss of the unknown.
Melrose, you might like to consider this, I am not convinced, never have been, but stranger things have happened:
‘canasson
Submitted on 2014/09/30 at 21:58
My two cents : when you are on this road, in the afternoom, you are often in a sort of penumbra, under the thick tree cover : the light is a mix of greenish (tree leaves) and blue (diffuse sky light) : no red light component. If a car has a dark red (or bordeaux) color, under this lighting with no red component, it can appear as “grey”. So ONF1 could have seen SAH arriving in his estate BMW and say that he saw a grey X3 or X5. Not so clever (auto fan), ONF1 !’
http://antoine.frostburg.edu/chem/senese/101/features/color-complement.shtml
With regard to the Legionnaire, refer to the burning of Colonel Russell Williams’ military uniform in Canada.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/uniform-burning-exorcism-of-memory-of-russell-williams/article1314851/
I hope the uniforms were swabbed for DNA and swatches retained as evidence before they were burned. Otherwise, this comes across as destroying evidence. In all likelihood, Williams had the uniforms drycleaned, which would have removed any evidence on them.
There does seem to be rather a lot of guns on the streets, in that part of FRANCE
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&prev=search&rurl=translate.google.co.uk&sl=fr&u=http://www.ledauphine.com/isere-sud/2015/07/03/un-pistolet-mitrailleur-dans-le-sac-a-dos-wczk&usg=ALkJrhivbvY1K3Y9DeA3mzxqMgMHvgGqSw
The officials of the anti-crime brigade of Grenoble had a big surprise yesterday afternoon by calling a well-known young man of their services.
Police officers patrolling the Harlequin sector to Villeneuve with their colleagues in the specialized field brigade when they wanted to carry out the inspection of a group of young people. At the sight of police officers, one of them immediately fled. He was chased by the police Bac who saw him get rid of a backpack. The bag was recovered, and the young man questioned a little further.
It was in the backpack that the police made an interesting discovery, putting his hand on a machine pistol caliber 9mm.
The young man, who was apparently it recently released from prison, was placed in custody and the investigation was assigned to the criminal investigation group of the departmental safety.
This arrest and the seizure are further evidence that war weapons are in circulation in Grenoble.
And SLAUGHTERING
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&prev=search&rurl=translate.google.co.uk&sl=fr&u=http://www.ledauphine.com/france-monde/2015/07/03/obseques-d-herve-cornara-bernard-cazeneuve-emu-aux-larmes&usg=ALkJrhjKyG0FFFl81e7Oe4EgRNca3eHdDA
The city of Fontaines-sur-Saône (Rhône) issued a final tribute Friday Hervé Cornara, murdered in the attack in Saint-Quentin-Fallavier (Isère), during a Mass attended by the Minister of Interior Bernard Cazeneuve, very moved. Leaving the church and accompanied by the song “Because you leave” by Jean-Jacques Goldman, the coffin was then taken in a hearse, the body to be cremated. The Minister Bernard Cazeneuve then wiped a few tears on the square, standing behind the widow. “None of us can agree that the most abject barbarism come to end such a beautiful life, too dense, inspired only by the feeling of love of neighbor”, said Mr. Cazeneuve during the ceremony .
I don’t understand the DNA issue. At the Martinet, the gendarmerie must have found dozens of cigarette butts, chewing gums, soft-drink cans, used condoms and so forth, all bearing human DNA. These items could have been left there by anybody, not just the perpetrator.
In 2013, after this firearms expert had handled some item (presumably a cartridge case) with his bare hands and subsequently had his DNA discovered, Maillaud said, “aucune autre trace ADN n’a pour l’instant été retrouvée”. However, subsequently, they must have discovered two DNA profiles on item(s) definitely linked to the perpetrator, because they were able to rule out Devouassoux on that basis.
http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/2014/02/19/97001-20140219FILWWW00296-chevaline-l-adn-de-l-ex-policier-n-est-pas-celui-de-la-scene-de-crime.php
If these these two DNA profiles were found on the pistol grip fragment or some hypothetical other, never-made-public item left behind by the killer, the gendarmerie would have taken an inordinately long time to discover them. I would therefore assume that these are very faint DNA traces, just a few alleles in each case, found on the spent cartridge cases. However, it would almost amount to a miracle to finding even those on spent cartridge cases. Fingertips touching smooth metal leave so little DNA trace material, and the heat of a cartridge being fired is so detrimental to DNA trace material, that recovering DNA off spent cartridge cases has – at least hitherto – only been possible if the fingers handling the cartridge had been dipped in DNA-bearing saliva or blood.
https://www.staffs.ac.uk/assets/cartridge_cases_tcm44-12721.pdf
http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/agweb/pdfs/cci/reference/lpdnactg.pdf
Thus, either the magazines used by the killer were loaded by two different people sucking their thumbs or bleeding whilst doing so, which sounds somewhat unlikely, or it took forensics almost a year-and-a-half to recover useable DNA profiles off the pistol grip fragment. The latter sounds dismal, but it would actually be preferable, because those DNA profiles are likely to be more complete than anything that could have been recovered off the cartridge cases.
Finally the bit that I really don’t understand: based upon the haplotype, the gendarmerie can tell whether those DNA profiles are Middle Eastern or Western European. They can also tell hair and eye colour from the DNA. If the haplotype already is in one of the relevant databases, they can even tell which geographical areas the bearers of those DNA profiles are likely to hail from, as haplotypes occur in geographical clusters. They would not even have to conduct a mass DNA screening of local men. In rural areas like Upper Savoy, intermarriage is so common it would suffice to test a few dozen men in order to identify the dominant local haplotypes.
Q. & Peter
Q. Ah yes, the prohibition of charging or accepting interest payments. Thanks for pointing that out (slaps self).
However in my (extremely limited) experience of this matter any interest accrued could simply be donated to a worthy charity.
My understanding was that the specific type of account under discussion simply bore no interest. Would that make Khadim very pious?
Thinking back, I remember a discussion with one of my relatives, who worked for a UK financial institution, about their development of financial products to meet the requirements of islamic doctrine. This was back in early-mid 1990s. The replacement of interest by profit (or loss) from risk bearing enterprise was their approach.
So it may have been the case at the time the account was opened, roughly the mid 80s, that there were no suitable ‘products’ available from that bank. However active management and the development of a diverse portfolio seemingly did not happen.
What did happen in that timeframe was that Saad and Zaid did property restoration and development together, including restoration of properties in France.
If the monies in the Swiss account really were barely touched one has to ask why? It could have been used to finance larger scale property development. But although profitable, that would have locked up the money for indeterminate periods of time.
The key to all this may be that this account was instant access, on demand, in cash.
@ Good In Parts, 3 Jul, 2015 – 4:42 pm
That’s exactly right. Risk-free interest is forbidden, but Zakat (profit from risk-bearing enterprise) is acceptable.
Swiss banks have offered Islamic banking for a long time now, and Credit Agricole was one of the pioneers in that field. If Kadhim had wanted to, he could have invested his money in accordance with Sharia law, certified by one of the tame mullahs that the banks keep on their books.
Your idea that the appeal of the account was instant access, in cash, sounds plausible, but there are a few snags with that: 1. There is no such thing as instant access to that sort of money, in cash. You gave to give plenty of advance notice and provide a very good reason for requiring the money in cash; otherwise, the bank will have file an anti-money-laundering report. 2. Having invested the money in stocks, bonds, commodities and so forth would have been absolutely no obstacle. What the bank would have recommended in any case instead of a cash withdrawal would have been a back-to-back loan. Rather than withdrawing the money in cash, probably running afoul of AML and customs regulations in the process and risking getting robbed, Kadhim could have gone to any other Branch of CA anywhere in the world, or to one of their partner banks, and requested a loan, with his Geneva portfolio serving as 100 % collateral (hence the name back-to-back). Getting such a fully secured back-to-back loan anywhere in the world would have been easier, quicker and less risky than cleaning out his Geneva account.
@ M.
Thank you for a refreshingly honest post earlier today.
I personally think it’s entirely reasonable to keep some discussions private in order to protect sources and individuals. Frankly, the elephant in the room in this public forum is the extent to which the victims and families of the victims are defamed on an almost daily basis!
It’s gracious of you to mention our earlier Menegaldo exchanges in the way you did and I appreciate that. It’s absolutely no problem at all: indeed you were performing a valuable “checks and balances” function – exactly how things should work here.
If you detected a mocking tone, that was certainly not my intention, as your grasp of fact and detail has been one of the most appealing features of visiting this forum, along with the generation of new ideas and angles that would not have occurred to me…
… such as for example, the comment of the presiding Judge about the purpose of the AH’s visit to France – which is very intriguing. This resonates with the comments of the Swiss Public Prosecutor about the proximity of Saad’s call to his Swiss Bank on Monday and his death on Wednesday, which he finds “troublant”.
I am sorry to hear about the passing of your friend, and about your hospitalizations. Clearly you’ve had a difficult time of it. It’s sometimes easy forget that behind our avatar masks there are real people with all kinds of things to contend with, other than solving the Chevaline mystery.
@Max
OK, thanks for the clarifications. Yes, whatever Zaid meant to say, the “suicide” thing is a bit weird. He’s basically a weird guy. I thought Parry was describing you when he speculated about SAH’s “murder-suicide,” but he must have been referring to someone else. Not surprised that he was blown away by the idea of an Iqbal-JT pact!
The idea of SAH’s red car, in greenish light, turning into grey is brilliant. I would certainly buy into it. Could be a break-through.
On the picture by the FIB building near the stream, I recall an incredibly erudite discussion on Deadzone, mostly between you and Shadwick, about timing. I’m guessing that the question of the sequence of pics is also related to timing, and is relevant to the whole idea of SAH making two trips to Le Martinet, an idea which is now enjoying something of a renaissance.
More generally, I like your approach of first trying to work out WHAT happened and exactly WHEN before figuring out WHY it happened and WHO did what to WHOM. The solution to “what?” and “when?” would almost certainly point the way to answering the other questions.
Do you think that the interest earned from the al-Hilli Swiss bank account is donated directly or indirectly to an Iraqi charity administered by a relative, do you?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/9762604/Alps-murder-Truth-about-Saad-al-Hillisfamily-feud.html
It would seem Patrice Menegaldo lived in an apartment block at
1044 Route d’ Annecy, Ugine
I’ve just matched it with the picture in Le Dauphine Libre, (from a few weeks ago)
Opposite the Patisserie
@GIP: I think it is common for older generations to be more religious than newer generations. That is happening all over the world.
One thing that hasn’t been explored to my satisfaction is whether the al-Hillis were involved in interest-free property loans to other Muslims. Some of these arrangements involve use of the property by those making the loan, or space reserved for religious or cultural organizations. Maybe senior Mr. Al -Hilli got his start with the help of Muslim lending in this way. Did anyone not repay a loan, or plan not to repay a loan in the future? I think this could have been a possibility. There is still a cloud over the circumstances of the death of Mr. al-Hilli senior, in my view.
Peter
Instant access. Yes, I have no doubt you are correct. Now, that is.
But in 1985 ? The past is a foreign country. They do things differently there.
It’s almost as if the account was set up for a purpose but that purpose is now forgotton or irrelevant. That motivation is gone, but the money remains, a motivation in its own right.
@MN: I posted a link to the street view of the apartment long ago. You will also see a car dealership nearby and a mechanic shop. Speculation was that the al-Hilli could have stopped nearby for a tire repair, or picnic supplies. That road leads to Albertville and Grignon, too.
@GIP: It is true that money-laundering regulations have tightened significantly in recent years, especially since 9/11.
Knowing the purpose of the money in that account would answer a lot of questions. If it was held there as future repayment, or set aside for an interest-free loan that never happened, third parties would have an interest I. Preventing it from being withdrawn. Cultural context is important here.
Sorry, Q, not noticed your link
but if we have both come up with the same apartment block, we are either both correct or both wrong. The garage looks shut to me but the very small patissery looks very open and correct, you could very easily pull over to buy a Cornish pastie or whatever, in that shop.
Posted long ago:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5248949
Dowries: were they around around in the 80s?
Important to bring old links forward, MN, as they get buried.
I think that is PM’s apt.
Fantastic, the air has cleared, what a relief.
GIP, the idea of using the money as security is a good one, I have done this with the CIC Bank, in my small way, twice I have even released the money monthly to cover the loan, of course the more money invested the higher the interest earned and the monthly payments in the end barely touch the capital as it is continually making interest, not in my case I hasten to add, it reduced the interest losses.
Going by Land Registry details, the Chessington flat and the Walton Semi, last exchanged hands in the early 2000’s. Of course for a lesser value than they have today, same for the studio flat above a business premises in Spain, the local friend (carer) appears to have a leather goods business around the corner.
There is also the Credit Card application, can you apply for one against anything other than a current account?
Peter, you have written every one of my queries regarding the DNA, where is it that is so significant it lets Eric D off the hook ? And Patrice M ?
Did the murderer spit on his victims ?
In a way the demand for a sample off James Mathews (ex)wife Gabriella, earlier THIS YEAR, leads me to wonder if it is in the car.
If Patrice Menegaldo did reside in the apartment block 1044 Route d’ Annecy, Ugine,
he would not have had to go all the way to Grignon to Pharmacie Schutz-Morange for his prescriptions as he could just walk for three minutes to get to
Pharmacie Bouillot
Q
“Do you think that the interest earned from the al-Hilli Swiss bank account is donated directly or indirectly to an Iraqi charity administered by a relative, do you?”
No, because I don’t think that the account was interest bearing.
I would say
a lack of DNA does not preclude you from being the slaughterer
also a positve DNA does not have to mean you were the slaughterer.
Somebody could put the DNA of a patsie at the crime scene.
Fantastic, the air is cleared.
Peter, did they acknowledge the suicided Francisco Benitez ?
Melrose, They had the bodies for more than a month, and TP writes of Mollier:
‘It was several more weeks before his family could have his remains cremated due to lengthy police autopsy examinations’