The mainstream media for the most part has moved on. But there are a few more gleanings to be had, of perhaps the most interesting comes from the Daily Mirror, which labels al-Hilli an extremist on the grounds that he was against the war in Iraq, disapproved of the behaviour of Israel and had doubts over 9/11 – which makes a great deal of the population “extremist”. But the Mirror has the only mainstream mention I can find of the possibility that Mossad carried out the killings. Given Mr al-Hilli’s profession, the fact he is a Shia, the fact he had visited Iran, and the fact that Israel heas been assassinating scientists connected to Iran’s nuclear programme, this has to be a possibility. There are of course other possibilities, but to ignore that one is ludicrous.
Which leads me to the argument of Daily Mail crime reporter, Stephen Wright, that the French police should concentrate on the idea that this was a killing by a random Alpine madman or racist bigot. Perfectly possible, of course, and the anti-Muslim killings in Marseille might be as much a precedent as Mossad killings of scientists. But why the lone madman idea should be the preferred investigation, Mr Wright does not explain. What I did find interesting from a man who has visited many crime scenes are his repeated insinuations that the French authorities are not really trying very hard to find who the killers were, for example:
the crime scene would have been sealed off for a minimum of seven to ten days, to allow detailed forensic searches for DNA, fibres, tyre marks and shoe prints to take place.
Nearby bushes and vegetation would have been searched for any discarded food and cigarette butts left by the killer, not to mention the murder weapon.
But from what I saw at the end of last week, no such searches had taken place and potentially vital evidence could have been missed. House to house inquiries in the local area had yet to be completed and police had not made specific public appeals for information about the crime. No reward had been put up for information about the shootings.
Behind the scenes, what other short cuts have been taken? Have police seized data identifying all mobile phones being used in the vicinity of the murders that day?
The idea that the French authorities – who are quite as capable as any other of solving cases – are not really trying very hard is an interesting one.
Which leads me to this part of a remarkable article from the Daily Telegraph, which if true points us back towards a hit squad and discounts the ides that there was only one gun:
Claims that only one gun was used to kill everybody is likely to be disproved by full ballistics test results which are out in October.
While the 25 spent bullet cartridges found at the scene are all of the same kind, they could in fact have come from a number of weapons of the same make.
This throws up the possibility of a well-equipped, highly-trained gang circling the car and then opening fire.
Both children were left alive by the killers, who had clinically pumped bullets into everybody else, including five into Mr Mollier.
Zainab was found staggering around outside the car by Brett Martin, a British former RAF serviceman who cycled by moments after the attack, but he saw nobody except the schoolgirl.
Her sister, Zeena, was found unscathed and hiding in the car eight hours later.
Both sisters are now back in Britain, and are believed to have been reunited at a secret location near London.
There are of course a number of hit squad options, both governmental and private, which might well involve iraqi or Iranian interests – on both of which the mainstream media have been very happy to speculate while almost unanimously ignoring Israel.
But what interests me is why the Daily Telegraph choose, in the face of all the evidence, to minimise the horrific nature of the attack by stating that “Both children were left alive by the killers”? Zainab was not left alive by design, she was shot in the chest and her skull was stove in, which presumably was a pretty serious attempt to kill a seven year-old child. The other girl might very well have succeeded in hiding from the killers under her mother’s skirts, as she hid from the first rescuers, and then for eight hours from the police.
The Telegraph article claims to be informed by sources close to the investigation. So they believe it was a group of people, and feel motivated to absolve those people from child-killing. Now what could the Daily Telegraph be thinking?
Regarding the faked press message :
” THE AL HILLIS AND THE AL SAFFARS AND THE AL ALLAFS are ordinary families with no or little relations to politics.
Lol lol lol.
Those families are amongst the most important people in middle east politics at least since 1960 with deep links to the united nations, the usa, the uk, middle east countries like jordan, uae, saudi arabia, kuweit, iraq, iran and iran’s hezbollah.
Another (Sikh)family killed on Friday night in Belgium. So far only the Indian press seem to be reporting it, and no names released.
http://news.outlookindia.com/items.aspx?artid=776801
@Kenneth
While I appreciate that there may have been a special relationship between Israel and France in the 50’s and 60’s, I understand it fizzled out in the following decades over France’s refusal to supply spare parts for the Mirage jets they’d sold to Israel.
And in any case, 50 years is a long time ago… Do you have anything more recent to go on?
Either way, I do take your point that France *could* have covered for Israel, or another security service, it’s certainly not beyond the bounds of possibility.
Regarding the inconsistencies Felix reported, these are between the statements of a neighbour and the family accountant Steadman – neither of whom is Iranian or Iraqi – so I don’t see how you can discount them as being the result of centuries of persecution?
It’s interesting, Bluebird, that you say that at least two of those who were murdered that day [Ikbal and her mother] had a staunch family history of being supportive of The United States, and reportedly al-Hilli had worked for British interests back in 2003. this means that the Mossad screwed up badly — as they have a habit of doing (I mean the whole idea that motivates them is deeply [morally] corrupt and ultimately doomed to fail as all honest men and women can take no more of it) when they decided to kill them.
No wonder that David Cameron was in disbelief when I saw him on telly – and I belive this was honest. After all those people in that car had been friends with the west.
@nuid, thanks. Everyone’s been well-behaved of late!
Other than the note on IndyMedia, has there been any new evidence as to the existence of a D-Notice? I ask as it occurs to me a great way to get fingers pointing at Mossad, especially since Israel has an official ‘no comment’ policy on its secret services.
Not steering here at all – Israel/Mossad have been involved in some truly dreadful acts, not least the disgraceful attack on the Mavi Marmara – but we must not let any biases get in the way. Hopefully new evidence will emerge in public soon.
Suhayl Saadi, excellent points!
“Since there has been at least some speculation in the MSM wrt all of the subjects supposedly contained in the ‘D-notice’ (including about possible MOSSAD involvement, Al-Hilli’s work with a company that is part of a weapons/defence industrial giant, Mollier’s nuclear angle, etc.), though we perhaps would’ve thought there would have been more investigative journalism internationally, and since no other sources have mentioned a D-notice, one might suggest that the post on Indymedia might have been a prank or even disiniformation. In the old days, the phrase, “a Manchester journalist” mmight have suggested ‘The (Manchester) Guardian’, but not now.”
I mentioned a while ago that the occasional hints and suggestions could be used as a pressure valve to allow speculation and conspiracies about an official notice but without breaking any laws. Lot’s of informal pressure but no paper-trail. Manchester = BBC now (it’s sop to the provinces). Obviously people at the BBC are reading this blog. I heard the Radio 4 programme and thought it was very wishy-washy. SM barely got a mention.
Also, regarding your comments on the Telegraph influencing public perception – I agree and the few Sun comments I’ve also seen have been of the “where’s my Mummy?”, heartstrings vein. All bases covered.
Just to add my voice to requests for a “view all comments” link at the top as well as the bottom of the comments.
This would speed up matters for those using a search function.
The page splitting is very useful for speeding up loading and allowing regular readers/commenters to get to the new stuff.
I have a system of my own for keeping track of the latest comments since my last inspection of a post, but it relies on the comments having permalinks. It may seem a cumbersome procedure to anyone coming at it for the first time but I find it deadly efficient. It also bypasses the page split. I use it in my monitoring of three Jersey CI blogs.
@Peter
OK, thanks for the agreement that the 7.65mm is a signature Kidon weapon.
(Did you really not know? You sound like an authority on firearms so I was surprised by your mistake.)
And as I’m sure someone of your knowledge must be aware, the 7.65mm Beretta can be fired either with or without the suppressor so either is possible.
The notion that suppressed pistols were used flies in the face of the eye-witnesses who were reported early on as having heard 30 secs of automatic gunfire.
One witness is recorded on video by the BBC describing it as sounding like “pah-pah-pah-pah-pah”, as I’m sure you remember we discussed this some time back.
And there’s the 15-year-old and his father who also heard shots (linked above, thanks for that).
Phillipe D and his companions (the “hikers”) were still ascending the hill in their car so it’s hardly surprising they didn’t hear any shots.
And BM is simply lying in my opinion.
Reply to Mary – RE: Broken link –
an alternate link to Trowbridge H. Ford articles is here – http://flyingcuttlefish.wordpress.com/spooks/
Sorensen:
You wrote correct. However all those families were friends of usa/cia and united nations as long as shia interests in iran where not on danger. This has recently changed as usa and united nations became proactively targetting iran and shia interests. Perhaps they lost friends but friends knew a lot about iraq, 9/11, afghanistan, etc. Friends might become a security threat at some day if you target friend’s friends and interests.
Regarding this BBC-interview that Ferret mentions, where the noise heard were decribed as a thirty second long pah-pah-pah sound: Does anyone have a link? Because it seems to me, these are pretty crucual witnesses!
In my comment above I should have made it clear I was referring to the paged comments format which is the default when you hit the comment number at the bottom of the original post on the main blog page.
bluebird wrote:
I thought you said that the US had helped those shia protesters in Bahrain? Of course there was no protest from the US when Saudi forces crossed that bridge between the two countries and crushed the uproar. Is that what you mean? Is that what you mean, when you say “usa and united nations became proactively targetting iran and shia interests”?
And since when has the United nations gone down that route? It seems to me that they are…you know..the united nations, and close to two hundred of them. As far as I know the UN has not radically changed course vis-a-vis Iran, because the set up of this organisation makes such a sudden shift impossible, and I think we should all be glad for that, because this insures that the UN stays a moderating voice in world affairs – a voice that was quelched in 2002-03 – but a voice which all now agrees should have been adhered to, and if it had been, 100.000 iraqie civilians would not have died.
One problem with that pro West fact Bluebird…… Gary A, said AH hated Americans.
Katie.
He said that recently he changed his mind on america.
Iran!
Dont hit the interest of your secular shia friends regarding iran!
Former friends might become new enemies quickly.
Bluebird, you say there have been a recent shift in US and UN ( ) policy towards “shia interest’s”. For sure the US made a giant mistake by launching the Iraq War — the greatest strategic blunder in its long history — which (Oops) had Iran as the great winner. But I don’t get what you say about “a recent shift”, and if so, then the US are being dragged along — yet again — by the powerful Israel lobby (without which there in all probability wouldn’t have been an Iraq war, and no sanctions 10 year before that, which reportedly killed 400,000 children (but how many Iranian – we just don’t know).
So if we go along with what you say, then Israel and it’s lobby is responsible for this shift, taht you talked about, and thus indirectly of these murders, if they (the murders) are a result of this shift, which you seem to imply.
Two things here.
1] The chatrooms Saad used were not only a magnet for hate-filled Islamic fundamentalists… but also for opposing forces trying to identify enemies.
2] Gary also had access to the family home where Saad went online to post his anti-Israeli rants.
Could this mean he also had a key & was it because of him the locks were changed ?
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/french-alps-shooting-islamic-rants-1326315
I have problem with the “people heard gunshot sounds” and this is aimed at no particular poster.
30 seconds of reported gunfire? OK, now count 30 seconds to yourself; it´s a very long time. So if aural witnesses heard gunfire, then the targets must also have heard the shots. I think the scene that was found would have been in a slightly different arrangement had any of the targets heard a gunshot. I for one, if sat in the back seats would have been over the back seat and at attempting to open the tailgate of get escape through one of the windows.
If people around heard gunshots; I really don´t beleive that they heard the shots that were fired at the targets.
In all likelyhood the hit was made with suppressed weapons; the less fuss the better as unsuppressed gunshots are a very noisy affair.
@ roland
I agree. When you’re counting 30 seconds is a lot longer than you’d guess…but I doubt that those who heard it (if any did) were counting, so I’d guess they perhaps over estimated the time frame of the shots.
@dopey
30 Sep, 2012 – 1:15 pm
Maybe people around did hear what they believed to be gunfire; but I really don´t think they heard the shots fired in that carpark around the BMW
And the car made no noise revving wheels spinning in the gravel. No sound of windows being smashed.
In a quiet forested mountain setting sounds travel. Nobody heard these sounds?
If we are going to the smuggling route I could buy that and that would come back to the missing peice of the roof rack I suppose, was that going to be passed to Mollier as discussed before.
Sorry had a busy weekend and am catching up!
Have you seen the 26 dead by bombs in Iraq targeting Shia Areas and Security Forces its being reported on sky now!
With what I have read this is just a huge story and the MSM could have had an absolute field day with any part of this story
and you can take your pick which angency did this and who SAH was actually working for?
@ Ferret
OK, thanks for the agreement that the 7.65mm is a signature Kidon weapon.
That is doubly wrong. First, 7.65 is a diameter, not a calibre. There is a world of difference between 7.65 Browning and 7.65 Parabellum (the calibre of the Swiss Army pistol). Secondly, 7.65 Browning is nobody’s “signature” calibre. It was extensively used all over the western bloc in its day, and it still remains popular for suppressed weapons in certain circles. US Navy SEALs, for example, at least until very recently used suppressed pistols in that calibre. Pretty much every western intelligence agency and SF outfit will still have suppressed weapons of that calibre in its armoury.
The Soviets, by the way, chose an entirely different approach, silencing the ammunition rather than the gun. Check out the PSS pistol here
http://www.tsniitochmash.ru/archive/asvssen.htm
We will have to wait and see what the ballistics report says, but my gut feeling is that a silenced pistol was used (despite witnesses asserting that they heard gunshots). Why else go to all that trouble with reloading and firing so many shots? If it had merely been a case of killing those victims as quickly as possible, I would have used a shotgun: easy to get hold of, easy to explain away if caught with it, no useful ballistics evidence left behind, people in rural parts are used to the sound of shotguns being fired and wouldn’t think twice about it.
Why do you think they will release ballistics report ever. There is no more information being released.
Ballistics report!?!
Absoloute Ballistics!
I listened Thurday to Radio 4 (BBC) programme, nothing new, thought there was a good piece on the gun, which by all accounts would have been reloaded 2 – 3 times. That takes some cool. If this was a family killing, then the children would have been a target, since the law of British inheritancy would leave everything to them, so nothing would have been gain, indeed much would have been lost since the children should now be WARD OF COURT and their finances under the COURT OF PROTECTION, which probably would be more of a legal brickwall than just a family legal\financial squabble.
But why is this so dead out of the water & quiet.
Many balls in the air at the moment in the UK, but the media silence, is probably down to the LEVESON effect.
Anyhows for my four pennyworth, as they say. Why would you drag a caravan half way a cross France for a short holiday, particularly when the children were due back to school that week. Was this a planned holiday? Where was the Swedish grandmouth picked up, or were they all travelling together & where is her son?
There must be a wealth of information that we the public don’t know and will never know, for example the sequence of the shooting. And why were the family in that location?
Perhaps we will never know. Doubt a professional hit man would use an old gun era 1900 – pre 1945 may this is down to some local man with a grudge\insane MO
@ dopey
please clarify who james scharff is and his relationship to SAH. you mentioned him last night at 11.20pm
@ missypuddleduck
“There must be a wealth of information that we the public don’t know ” indeed…
it is right under your beak. try reading the past weeks worth of threads here before shooting yourself in the claw by opening it