The mainstream media for the most part has moved on. But there are a few more gleanings to be had, of perhaps the most interesting comes from the Daily Mirror, which labels al-Hilli an extremist on the grounds that he was against the war in Iraq, disapproved of the behaviour of Israel and had doubts over 9/11 – which makes a great deal of the population “extremist”. But the Mirror has the only mainstream mention I can find of the possibility that Mossad carried out the killings. Given Mr al-Hilli’s profession, the fact he is a Shia, the fact he had visited Iran, and the fact that Israel heas been assassinating scientists connected to Iran’s nuclear programme, this has to be a possibility. There are of course other possibilities, but to ignore that one is ludicrous.
Which leads me to the argument of Daily Mail crime reporter, Stephen Wright, that the French police should concentrate on the idea that this was a killing by a random Alpine madman or racist bigot. Perfectly possible, of course, and the anti-Muslim killings in Marseille might be as much a precedent as Mossad killings of scientists. But why the lone madman idea should be the preferred investigation, Mr Wright does not explain. What I did find interesting from a man who has visited many crime scenes are his repeated insinuations that the French authorities are not really trying very hard to find who the killers were, for example:
the crime scene would have been sealed off for a minimum of seven to ten days, to allow detailed forensic searches for DNA, fibres, tyre marks and shoe prints to take place.
Nearby bushes and vegetation would have been searched for any discarded food and cigarette butts left by the killer, not to mention the murder weapon.
But from what I saw at the end of last week, no such searches had taken place and potentially vital evidence could have been missed. House to house inquiries in the local area had yet to be completed and police had not made specific public appeals for information about the crime. No reward had been put up for information about the shootings.
Behind the scenes, what other short cuts have been taken? Have police seized data identifying all mobile phones being used in the vicinity of the murders that day?
The idea that the French authorities – who are quite as capable as any other of solving cases – are not really trying very hard is an interesting one.
Which leads me to this part of a remarkable article from the Daily Telegraph, which if true points us back towards a hit squad and discounts the ides that there was only one gun:
Claims that only one gun was used to kill everybody is likely to be disproved by full ballistics test results which are out in October.
While the 25 spent bullet cartridges found at the scene are all of the same kind, they could in fact have come from a number of weapons of the same make.
This throws up the possibility of a well-equipped, highly-trained gang circling the car and then opening fire.
Both children were left alive by the killers, who had clinically pumped bullets into everybody else, including five into Mr Mollier.
Zainab was found staggering around outside the car by Brett Martin, a British former RAF serviceman who cycled by moments after the attack, but he saw nobody except the schoolgirl.
Her sister, Zeena, was found unscathed and hiding in the car eight hours later.
Both sisters are now back in Britain, and are believed to have been reunited at a secret location near London.
There are of course a number of hit squad options, both governmental and private, which might well involve iraqi or Iranian interests – on both of which the mainstream media have been very happy to speculate while almost unanimously ignoring Israel.
But what interests me is why the Daily Telegraph choose, in the face of all the evidence, to minimise the horrific nature of the attack by stating that “Both children were left alive by the killers”? Zainab was not left alive by design, she was shot in the chest and her skull was stove in, which presumably was a pretty serious attempt to kill a seven year-old child. The other girl might very well have succeeded in hiding from the killers under her mother’s skirts, as she hid from the first rescuers, and then for eight hours from the police.
The Telegraph article claims to be informed by sources close to the investigation. So they believe it was a group of people, and feel motivated to absolve those people from child-killing. Now what could the Daily Telegraph be thinking?
I’m kind of hoping to learn that all the bicycles involved in this story were made of titanium.
Titanium-aluminum-nitride is useful as a coating for thermal control in satellites.
“Dopey
16 Oct, 2012 – 11:38 pm” Hi. I don’t know what your source is but I have gone back to the BBC interview and several other edited versions and I can find no account that matches yours. As far as I know Martin only gave one interview, though the BBC may have more than they broadcast of course, or the original may be longer than the one that has found its way onto the net. This is at http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-19587272 and lasts 10.28 mins. It ends at the point he decides to cycle off “as fast as I can”.
On TWO occasions he states he had no reception on his phone (not you note an absence of battery power) He makes no reference to meeting Didierjean and returning to the scene with him or eventually being able to make the call. So even on this simple level, the Prosecutor (i.e. someone trained in the law and the importance of truthfulness and accuracy) is factually wrong.
At the press conference the next day (6.9.12) Maillaud (at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqs0OuyXH9A&feature=related) jumps straight from Martin tending the girl to the emergency services arriving with no mention at all of the problems Martin had calling them, or indeed that he rode off and met Didierjean, who returned with him.
Now on Sky news on the 11th September we have the first mention of Didierjean’s account to Le Parisien newspaper, though he is referred to only by Christian name and initial. In other words his identity and account have been kept secret for five days at least. (Mind you, at this stage WBM was still anonymous also) He is reported as telling a very different story as I have recounted many times.However the important bit relating to the phone call is as follows:
“This man was terrified and in a panic,” said Philippe. “He explained to me in bad French that there was a drama a little higher up. He was trying to call an ambulance. I didn’t know if he didn’t have a mobile phone, or if his phone network was not connecting at this point.” Interestingly this gives a very different impression than WBM’s own BBC account that he assessed the situation “logically”.
The commentator adds, “After calling the emergency services Philippe and the British cyclist gave their dramatic accounts to police.” However this makes no indication WHEN this occurred, or where.
Yesterday’s Telegraph quotes Mr Maillaud as saying “He (Martin) then cycled down the hill and finally made a call to the emergency services logged at 15.48. (!!!!!) This could not have been his first trip when he meets Didierjean or he would have said, so it must have been on the second, if at all. Add into the mix that Martin can hardly speak French so it is almost inconceivable that he rather than Didierjean would have made it.
Then we have the quote that Felix kindly culled from Kim W in the Guardian “He (Didierjean) then went back down the hill leading to the Alpine beauty spot near Lake Annecy to call the emergency services” which rather confirms it was he rather than Martin who did the call away from the scene.
(http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/11/french-alps-shooting-cyclist-girl)
So after all that, my case still stands: EITHER the call was made by Didierjean at 4.25 at the earliest; or by Didierjean at about 4.15 at the earliest if he had reception when he got to the scene for the first time with WBM (seems unlikely given location and reception info available); or if Martin did phone at 3.48 AFTER all the events as Maillaud now says, there would not be enough time for the Al Hillis to get to the death zone ahead of him AND Didierjean’s account would be utterly trashed.
No I have to return to my original point: neither Martin OR Didierjean could have made a 3.48 call for the rescue services to arrive “about 4.00”. SO WHO DID?
Did you know that?
“… Hero: Mr Martin is seen here training in Steyning. He is a keen competitor in the triathlon”
Forgot:
http://liveghana.tv/trending/meet-william-brett-martin-french-alps-shootings-british-cyclist-speaks-of-horror-at-discovering-bodies-of-family-shot-dead-photos.html
“Thomas
17 Oct, 2012 – 12:07 am” Hi. No I’m afraid that won’t work if didierjean is right when he says they initially met at about 4.10. Remember up to that point DEFINITELY no telephone contact had been achieved and it seems probable it didn’t happen for another 15 or 20 minutes. But even were we to assume Didierjean managed to get trough as soon as he had heard the story from a barely coherent Martin, this would still not explain how firemen and doctor were on the scene PRIOR TO the call being made. I have also previously called attention to the fact that it is highly unlikely that the operations room would have sent unarmed personnel to a mass shooting if they were not already sure it was safe to do so. Remember at that stage the gunman (men) had already shot 4/5 and might still have been at large.
p.s. my fuller explanation with sources to ““Dopey
16 Oct, 2012 – 11:38 pm” has been sent but has not appeared as its “awaiting moderation”. Sorry “Dopey”
@Tim V
People often overestimate how long it would have taken to do things…
BM could have done everything he said he did at the crime scene in less than 2 minutes.
He then sets off back down the hill on his bike, and sees the car of Didierjean coming up.
According to the press, Didierjean mentions a distance of 150 metres between where he met BM and the crime scene ( 50 metres in another report)
This may be the point in time at which the call was made.
Where does the 16.10hrs / 4.10pm come from?
@Tim V
I have also previously called attention to the fact that it is highly unlikely that the operations room would have sent unarmed personnel to a mass shooting if they were not already sure it was safe to do so.
Maybe they didn’t know the nature of what had taken place? A serious incident/accident pehaps, but not a multiple killing by shooting.
Tim.
RE: Unarmed personal…….the gendarmes are armed presumably they were dispatched at the same time the emergency services ….
Anyway, I’d be pretty sure they would have ‘something’ in their kit to cope with such a situation should it be needed, especially the French, medics have a tough time these days, think of the stabbings they have to attend.
@Terry – so the police went there on spec? I thought they had a phone call (from someone, at some time, not precisely determined). I would have thought that call contained some detail.
@TimV good deductions. The official narrative has to be a partial/total lie. Any attempt to embellish just creates more absurdities. That’s why BM is under wraps. The car park’s precise coordinates are provided elsewhere in, I think, the previous Conundrum thread. They were provided for a walking group. Beyond is a barrier in the road with information board.
I have asked Kim W where she got the name Didierjean from, since her copy seems to be an approximation of what was in Le Parisien with no extra detail. Yet Le P only called him Philippe P.
Finally, here is a photo of a largely dead,tragically in a house fire, family, who happen to be Muslim. We see images of dead children, and a dead mother. The surviving child is pixillated. I ask again, why no photos anywhere of Ikbal Al-Saffar and Suhaila Al-Allaf???
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/10/16/harlow-fire-dr-sabah-usmani-essex-arson-police_n_1969164.html?ncid=GEP
Different photos are also available on the web.
@TimV
If you read the original French Le Parisien article, it does seem there that it was Martin who called the emergency services, the first call to them, who arrive “a few minutes later”. Wow, that’s quick work by the rescue services!
Tim V
The official story has more holes in it than all the worlds golf courses. The main question I gain from that is why?
If they wanted to make up an official version they couldnt possibly have done a worse job than the current official version.
The police have released the barest minimum of facts, even the basic things like where was Saad’s bike we still have no clue about. BM could have taken it from the car roof or Saad could have cycled himself to meet the family at the car park.
The ‘fairytale’ version making it up as they go along with Philppe D +2 unmentioned until they were introduced.
I am still believing no shootings took place and this was an extraction of the family. I am happy for some evidence to come forward to prove otherwise. Why SM would be extracted adds to the confusion and if he was SM’s fathers recent death is brought into serious doubt.
If any one of us on this blog was given 24 hours in the area we could discover more than the police have managed. So does this imply joint French/UK intelligence involvement. Even less information has been forthcoming since the Police forces combined the investigation which implies UK is leading the way in saying nothing.
I have been following the information being released on the following website:-
http://scotlandyard.blogspot.co.uk/2012_10_01_archive.html
Where the latest info is that several versions of the £4 million will were found inside the caravan.
[http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/lawsuit-question-over-alps-killings.19139114]
Why hasnt this been reported elsewhere?
The Scotland Yard site has also stated that the caravan route started from Reading (map circles Swindon?) via the Dordogne/Bordeaux area. Was this to visit the derelict property? If so, why? All I can think of was maybe hiding documents there. But now with the latest news, visiting his lawyer/solicitor that he uses for that property. Would be strange not to use a specialist lawyer in respect of the £4M will.
There are several companies in the following list who he may be working for (as well as EADS x3):-
Major companies
(This list includes indigenous Bordeaux-based companies and companies that have major presence in Bordeaux, but are not necessarily headquartered there.)
Arena
CDiscount
Dassault
EADS composites
EADS Sogerma
EADS Space Transportation
Lectra
LU
Marie Brizard
McKesson Corporation
Oxbow
Ricard
Sanofi Aventis
Smurfit Kappa
SNECMA
SNPE
Solectron
Thales Group
William Pitters
Why would they drive this extra distance, it cant be for something trivial?
The police were going to use receipts/cctv to track their route but nothing further has been said on the matter.
Telling press about the family photos and ordering them to run the story only strengthens the extraction theory.
Why did the mother-in-law need to be on this spur of the moment camping holiday?
I do like the idea that the 2 ladies are related to Saddam and that would be why their photos have never been shown. If they were killed and related, even more reason to print their photos.
Who would want to keep them alive?
@Dopey @Q
Thanks for the links re Ray Harrington and the ASA case for Silver Fern Svcs Ltd.
It’s heartening to see our good old ASA really has some teeth, isn’t it? Silver Fern were found guilty on all counts of running an unfair and misleading promotion (in my opinion of the ASA ruling) and suffered the totally and utterly humiliating sanction of… being told not to do it again!
Oh dear.
I started to think it might actually prove they are a real company, doing real promotions, until I saw that there was just 1 complainant, so they could have set the whole thing up themselves to garner credibility, at least it’s not beyond the bounds of possibility, is it?
Ray Harrinton… lives in Guildford… Like Gary Aked? Went to the Univ of Brighton, W Sussex… same area as WBM? Says he’s “Marketing Director” at Silver Fern but he’s not any kind of director according to Duedil… and never was?
The website his LinkedIn page refers to at http://www.mywinninghome.co.uk gives a false registered address for Silver Fern at the bottom of the page, and says “The Promoted Party is Nationwide Research Corporation Limited”, which is one of the Temple-controlled companies.
It also says: “Residential Development Institute is the trading name of Residential Development Institute Limited, New Zealand, Inc., No. 2360633”, this company is registered at 24 May Avenue, Napier, Hawkes Bay , New Zealand, which is the same address as one of the Hart companies, also Temple-controlled, and the directors are David John TEMPLE, and Ronald TEMPLE, resident at the above address.
And it adds “Mortgage Research Institute is the trading name of Mortgage Research Institute Limited, New Zealand, Inc., No. 2360631”, this company is also registered at 24 May Avenue, Napier, Hawkes Bay , New Zealand, and the directors are again David John TEMPLE, and Ronald TEMPLE, resident at the above address.
Google maps shows this address as being a residential house.
So their “big promotion” is actually a promotion by themselves and for themselves… and not what it seems at all… (at least, in my honest opinion).
Re his other company “Crazy Not To Ltd”, he claims to have been involved from April 2011 but it was only formed in Jan 2012. The only director is David John TEMPLE and I can’t see the shareholding so can’t verify if he really is the owner as he claims.
It all seems a bit “not what it seems”, in my opinion.
Addendum:
Crazy Not To has only one director and shareholder: David John TEMPLE.
So… Ray Harrington is “Owner Director at Crazy Not To”???
I don’t think so!
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/ray-harrington/13/718/74a
@thomas
Thats exactly what i have said. Al saffars are the fsmily of her husband and therefore any al saffar must be brother in law. I mentioned her brother as being falih mahmood saleh al allaf and i gave a link for his son ahmed falih M al allaf. His aunt must have been suhaila. Al allaf is her maiden name. Therefore all her brothers and sisters are called xxxxxx MAHMOOD SALEH AL ALLAF. Whereabout they shorten Mahmood with an M.
Mahmood is the name of her father and saleh the name of her grandfather.
That is exactly what i have said.
Ferret
Harrington is calling himself a management director. The temples are clearly strawmen for all those companies, trying to move the jurisdiction away from uk to nz.
My guess is that those companies have a shady purpose just like empty china restaurants and weird lotteries and some private casinos exist for a shady purpose.
Slthough some theries are pretyy much off topic here and some theries are even weird and unlogic, i am opening a new one that might be weird, simply because it fits into the timeline.
http://m.thelocal.se/42782/20120823/
{http://m.thelocal.se/42876/20120828/
There are links between the uk and sweden. Can we link suhaila to the palme assassination as a witness? Can we link Rausing to the london group or to the unspeakable? I mnow this is a weird theory but it would make a quick runnung away with grandma likely. Perhaps grandma knew too much and they had documents that of course would explain the involvement of intelligence, too.
I agree, just a weird theory that does not fit into what we had discussed before. But we should not leave out any kind of reasons possible.
@ Tim
17 Oct, 2012 – 1:55 am
Tim there’s a fuller BM interview. In it he does mention Phillipe D, he himself referring to Phillipe D’s comment about his bad French in it.
Reading that Telegraph articl 9dated 15th October- I couldn;t find one for 16th October?)? – I didn’t read it that they were quoting the prosecutor re the 3.48 time but rather were rehashing (inaccurately) the original timeline given from when BM hadn’t yet been named and Phillipe D hadn’t yet been revealed as having been there. It’s not a new story- it’s the Telegraph sloppily reporting the original one.
@ Ferret
That lot are definitely on the shady side from the sounds of it. I’m thinking they sound more villainous/conmen than undercover govt related though…though that’s not to say those two don’t overlap 🙂
@Bluebird
17 Oct, 2012 – 8:53 am
Just wanted to confirm that you where right.
The 18-year old nephew is a little bit active in discussions on the net re halal-meat and building mosques in Sweden, which just tells that the family seems to be religious.
——-
Re al-Hilli and Elekta, I wouldn´t exclude that he was still working with them when I read the posts from the person on the Swedish forum, that first connected al-Hilli with Elekta.
It seems to be a collaboration between Elekta, SSTL and maybe some other companies, a classified project.
The project might be, according to the person with contacts at Elekta:
“I think we are talking about the development of laser weapons, perhaps on satellites.”
https://www.flashback.org/sp39251819
https://www.flashback.org/sp39311655
There might also be worth to note, that Elekta in August 2012 recieved an order from the Chinese Army for medical laser. I don´t know why it is the army in China who made the order, sounds a little bit odd.
Regarding my palme assassination theory and rausing/unspeakable linked idea:
From wikipedia.
Guildford, surrey? MI6?
In his 2005 book Blood on the Snow: The Killing of Olof Palme historian Jan Bondeson advanced a theory that Palme’s murder was linked with arms trades to India. Bondeson’s book meticulously recreated the assassination and its aftermath, and suggested that Palme had used his friendship withRajiv Gandhi to secure a SEK 8.4 billion deal for the Swedish armaments company Bofors to supply the Indian Army with howitzers. However, Palme did not know that behind his back Bofors had used a shady company called AE Services — nominally based in Guildford, Surrey, England — to bribe Indian government officials to conclude the deal.Bondeson alleged that on the morning he was assassinated, Palme had met with the Iraqiambassador to Sweden, Muhammad Saeed al-Sahhaf (the man who would later go on to become notorious as Saddam Hussein’s Information Minister during the 2003 Iraq War). The two discussed Bofors, which al-Sahhaf knew well because of its arms sales during the Iran–Iraq War. Bondeson suggested that the ambassador told Palme about Bofors’ activities, infuriating Palme. Bondeson theorised that Palme’s murder might have been inadvertently triggered by his conversation with the ambassador, if either the Bofors arms dealers or the middlemen working through AE Services had a prearranged plan to silence the Prime Minister should he discover the truth and the deal with India become threatened. According to Bondeson, Swedish police suppressed vital MI6 intelligence about a Bofors/AE Services deal with India.
That lot are definitely on the shady side from the sounds of it. I’m thinking they sound more villainous/conmen than undercover govt related though…though that’s not to say those two don’t overlap
… indeed… if it wasn’t for the fact that their registered office is located in the business park right next to the AWE at Aldermaston… and their other address is down the road from Sandhurst Military Academy…
Straw, re; photos of the women.
Yes they are dead & cannot be hurt by printing photos, but the girls are alive they carry the family ‘stigma’. Imagine what could happen to them if the killers decide to take a second hit .
Likewise with Zaid, notice how he’s kept his head down.
The lawyer for the house could be a Notaire who is selling the property rather than an agent & not involved with wills.
The visit to the property would be to collect mail , take any items such as tools etc, before the sale ?
Also these phone calls. Remember the difference of having a UK phone on roaming & a local French phone, sometimes when you are with a small company [ in France , say La Bara ] they do not have the coverage, if a UK phone co does not have agreements in place with major players, then calls cannot be made, especially with PAYG ….., Did BM have a PAYG phone just for French use ?
Just saying. 😉
Tim
The only reference to 4.10pm is in one report in the Evening Standard by Peter Allen. Is it corroborated anywhere else? It is not reported in the Parisien interview which is the only interview PD has given. If it was actually said at one of the press conferences you would have thought it would have been picked up by other journalists. It smacks of sloppy journalism but have you tried emailing Peter Allen for clarification?
Ferret you’re going to love this one. I’m out soon for the rest of the day unfortunately as I’d love to spend a day digging on this one. Maybe someone can make a start?
It wouldn’t surprise me if some sort of links are found back to 55 Funny Gate. If not then this bunch in the link operated a VERY similar set up to whatever’s going on with the 55 Funny Gate companies.
Nams etc are in the link, but Googling “Executive Outcomes Simon Mann” throws up lots of interesting reads.
http://newsconfidential.com/FS/FS_Story.php?RequestID=32925
More here on the imon Mann bunch, with more security firm names and pople listed
http://www.headheritage.co.uk/uknow/features/?id=56
International Armament and Technology Trade
Directorate
Office of Deputy Undersecretary of Defense
(International Technology Security)
“Qasim’s car was riddled with bullets from machine-guns wielded by activists from
the banned Ba’ath Party that Saddam would later come to dominate. The
assassination attempt and Saddam’s escape on horseback to Syria later became part of
the mythology of the Iraqi dictator’s rise to power. In the 1980s an Iraqi state film,
The Long Days, was made about the attack and the bullet-riddled car is still exhibited
in one of Saddam’s palaces.”
Bluebird you would be interested in this PDF, but I don’t know how to attach it here,any suggestions ?
@ norfolkeagle 16 Oct, 2012 – 11:01 am
“just to confuse the issue still further, how about this?”
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2129936/Police-raid-flat-arrest-serial-killer-suspect-Paris-murders.html
there’s this –
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2012/04/20124765934424676.html
“She added that similarities were especially apparent in the last three murders, in which the victims were shot in the head. Gun cartridges were recovered in Thursday’s killing, when the shooter fled on a motorbike. In the Essone killings, Ms Le Queau [prosecutor] said all four murders appeared to have been committed at the same time of the day, between 4pm and 6pm.”
[3 of 4 were shot in head]
and this –
http://ufocasebook.conforums.com/index.cgi?board=announcements&num=1347056926&action=display&start=75
summary – Murders in Essone, France. 7.65 mm. Murder suspect Yoni P. in Fresnes prison receives letter from Nior K. marked “case essone” sent from post office Mishawaka in Essone that says Nior K. did murders. Of 1 of the 2 in Juvisy he says he “fired 4 or 5 times, and a bullet in head.
@Thomas
It seems to be a collaboration between Elekta, SSTL and maybe some other companies, a classified project.
There might also be worth to note, that Elekta in August 2012 recieved an order from the Chinese Army for medical laser. I don´t know why it is the army in China who made the order, sounds a little bit odd.
It certainly does sound odd. Makes me wonder if Elekta really is a civilian company… Chinese Army, Pietro Malandrucco (NATO)…
Thomas, do you still have the original comments anywhere? It would be very useful to see them in full.
I’m not 100% certain, but I don’t think there’s any material difference between a “medical” linear accelerator (linac) and any other, nor between a “medical” laser and any other. A linac is a linac, and a laser is a laser. Although of course there are many kinds of linac, and many kinds of lasers, and the amount of power varies.
But I would have thought you could use a “medical” linac or a “medical” laser for weapons programmes, just as easily as you could use a non-medical one. There’s nothing specific about it that makes it “medical”, is what I’m trying to say…