The mainstream media for the most part has moved on. But there are a few more gleanings to be had, of perhaps the most interesting comes from the Daily Mirror, which labels al-Hilli an extremist on the grounds that he was against the war in Iraq, disapproved of the behaviour of Israel and had doubts over 9/11 – which makes a great deal of the population “extremist”. But the Mirror has the only mainstream mention I can find of the possibility that Mossad carried out the killings. Given Mr al-Hilli’s profession, the fact he is a Shia, the fact he had visited Iran, and the fact that Israel heas been assassinating scientists connected to Iran’s nuclear programme, this has to be a possibility. There are of course other possibilities, but to ignore that one is ludicrous.
Which leads me to the argument of Daily Mail crime reporter, Stephen Wright, that the French police should concentrate on the idea that this was a killing by a random Alpine madman or racist bigot. Perfectly possible, of course, and the anti-Muslim killings in Marseille might be as much a precedent as Mossad killings of scientists. But why the lone madman idea should be the preferred investigation, Mr Wright does not explain. What I did find interesting from a man who has visited many crime scenes are his repeated insinuations that the French authorities are not really trying very hard to find who the killers were, for example:
the crime scene would have been sealed off for a minimum of seven to ten days, to allow detailed forensic searches for DNA, fibres, tyre marks and shoe prints to take place.
Nearby bushes and vegetation would have been searched for any discarded food and cigarette butts left by the killer, not to mention the murder weapon.
But from what I saw at the end of last week, no such searches had taken place and potentially vital evidence could have been missed. House to house inquiries in the local area had yet to be completed and police had not made specific public appeals for information about the crime. No reward had been put up for information about the shootings.
Behind the scenes, what other short cuts have been taken? Have police seized data identifying all mobile phones being used in the vicinity of the murders that day?
The idea that the French authorities – who are quite as capable as any other of solving cases – are not really trying very hard is an interesting one.
Which leads me to this part of a remarkable article from the Daily Telegraph, which if true points us back towards a hit squad and discounts the ides that there was only one gun:
Claims that only one gun was used to kill everybody is likely to be disproved by full ballistics test results which are out in October.
While the 25 spent bullet cartridges found at the scene are all of the same kind, they could in fact have come from a number of weapons of the same make.
This throws up the possibility of a well-equipped, highly-trained gang circling the car and then opening fire.
Both children were left alive by the killers, who had clinically pumped bullets into everybody else, including five into Mr Mollier.
Zainab was found staggering around outside the car by Brett Martin, a British former RAF serviceman who cycled by moments after the attack, but he saw nobody except the schoolgirl.
Her sister, Zeena, was found unscathed and hiding in the car eight hours later.
Both sisters are now back in Britain, and are believed to have been reunited at a secret location near London.
There are of course a number of hit squad options, both governmental and private, which might well involve iraqi or Iranian interests – on both of which the mainstream media have been very happy to speculate while almost unanimously ignoring Israel.
But what interests me is why the Daily Telegraph choose, in the face of all the evidence, to minimise the horrific nature of the attack by stating that “Both children were left alive by the killers”? Zainab was not left alive by design, she was shot in the chest and her skull was stove in, which presumably was a pretty serious attempt to kill a seven year-old child. The other girl might very well have succeeded in hiding from the killers under her mother’s skirts, as she hid from the first rescuers, and then for eight hours from the police.
The Telegraph article claims to be informed by sources close to the investigation. So they believe it was a group of people, and feel motivated to absolve those people from child-killing. Now what could the Daily Telegraph be thinking?
@Katie: See the last paragraph in the link I posted.
Much discussion here about lasers and microwaves, and what is or isn’t in use right now:
(http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/7-10.aspx#startofcomments)
Very interesting Q, as long ago as 1996 too !
@Q
17 Oct, 2012 – 9:10 p
Interesting. Looks like China like to be ahead in the devolment of laser technology for military purpose – but it must also be attractive to any country in the poorer part of the world, who like to have poweful weapon at low cost.
The killing was so brutal, that one can wonder if a partial purpose was to scare the people/companies working at the same project as al-Hilli, or something like that.
US unhappy with the export to China? Or whatever, there are dozens of ways to think of motifs.
Mollier is the truble to fit in – and even more hopeless if the conflict of the will is considered.
The way the authorities in France and UK are handling this, as well as the the press, tells us that the will is not the right track.
@Thomas: Sylvain Mollier’s metallurgy background no doubt is central to his involvement. A sub-specialization of metallurgy is the study of welding and coatings. That could be optical coatings, which would tie into the laser story.
Also, the type of work done by TIMET Savoie at Ugine seems of interest with regard to the customers for its products and competitors for those customers. There is great demand for their products, and profit to be made.
There have been a few responses to my discussion on the time line that deserve a reply.
First “Norfolkeagle 10.22”, Peter Allen’s 4.10 pm time is the one I used. Maybe he misread the le Parisien.fr “exclusive” interview with “Phillipe D.” The only time referred to is 4.01 pm but he does not make clear if this is the time he gets to Combe d’Ire or the time they see Martin coming down the hill on his bike. I rather tend to the former which would make both Allen’s 4.10 pm and Didierjean’s 4.01 pm fit. Importantly it would also fit Martin’s recounting of events. Why? Because he couldn’t have taken less then 15 or twenty minutes at the scene followed by the short bicycle ride to meet up with Didierjean. After all, just the recounting of the events to the BBC took over 10 mins without doing anything and this only took him up to the point he sets off on his bike.
“Dopey at 9.20” The Telegraph is definitely reporting a statement on the 15th Oct., therefore not a rehash but an up-to-date one, reiterating the Martin 3.48 pm call. The Guardian on the 11th Sept states, “The witness, Philippe Didierjean, 41, said: “She wasn’t responding to our calls. I clapped my hands but she did not respond. I even spoke a few words in English, because I saw the car was registered in Great Britain, but there was nothing. To me, she was dead.”He then went back down the hill leading to the Alpine beauty spot near Lake Annecy to call the emergency services”. This must have made the time around 4.30 pm.(http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/11/french-alps-shooting-cyclist-girl )
“Katie at 7.28” I don’t believe for a moment any control room would send in unarmed ambulance men to a shooting event, ahead of armed police officers, or an assurance that the area was safe. It would be contrary to all known operating procedures – unless the French live in a completely different world! The fact that the fireman and doctor were on site first, ahead of the police apparently, is highly suggestive that the control room knew it would be safe to do so.
To Kenneth Sorensen, Im sorry, but you can’t be much of a detective if you think I am in the Americas and sorry if you were in the wrong place for the murders. Maybe when you have worked your way through this I can persuade you.
At “Katie17 Oct, 2012 – 1:24 pmOMG, how spooky. Brett Martin viewed my profile at 18h last night on Linkedin !” May be he’d like to pop in and sort out this time-line business once and for all and tell us where we are going wrong. Unfortunately his tale about the Green 4×4 is scarcely believable and that he didn’t hear shots ditto. We have two alternatives: either Maillaud is telling the truth that Martin rang at 3.48 pm and Martin lied when he said he couldn’t; or Martin is telling the truth and Maillaud isn’t. In either, the question is why? In either, the credibility of the whole story is undermined.
But for all those who still doubt my reasoning, let’s take it step by step. We will accept the previously agreed time for Martin to arrive as about 3.45. This is based upon his BBC statement that
“about 2.30 I went out for my ride”.
Now the crucial issue is how far to his house, which route did he take, how fast was he going, to calculate his arrival time at Chevaline? A later BBC source confirms the Combe d’Ire route of 4 Km (2.5 m) would take about half an hour which given its up-hill route sounds about right. This means if we accept the estimate of 3.45 as his arrival time he would have been on the French roads for about an hour and a quarter.
Still riding up the incline he says:
“As I sort of approached the scene, the first saw was a (bicycle or bicyclist – not altogether clear which) outside. I’d seen a cyclist ahead of me much earlier so at first I just thought he was having a rest.” “As I got closer a very young child stumbled into the road. And at first I just thought she was playing with a sibling but she sort of looked from a distance sort of falling over, larking about as a child would. However as I approached her it was obvious that she was badly injured and there was a lot of blood on her and as I got even closer I saw the car with its engine running and wheels spinning.”
He first thinks there had been a
“terrible car accident”
Now this element of arrival and initial assessment must have taken 5 mins so we are now up to 3.50 (i.e. PAST the time he is supposed to have called the emergency services already!)
He then recounts how he moved into -“First attender mode”.
“Paying some attention to the girl” (who he confirms was Zainab al Hilli) who he says was “prone on the road, moaning semi-conscious and she was lying in front of the car so my immediate thought was she needed to be moved in case the car lurched forward and ran her over or anything, so I gently attended to her and moved her to a position where the vehicle could not possibly go clear of the road and put her in the recovery position as best I could and just sort of asked her to stay there and moved on”.
At this point this account he appears to have made no attempt to assess her medical condition or determine her actual injuries and whether a particular response was required. For a trained pilot this seems rather unusual considering her age and the fact she was still alive. Apparently he had decided she was “very severely injured, slipping in and out of consciousness. “
In fact after a few minutes when I was doing other things I glanced back at her she had become unconscious. She had quite a lot of blood and some quite obvious head injuries so I thought the best thing to do with her – she was breathing freely enough – was to put her into the recovery position I checked she wasn’t profusely bleeding that needed to be stopped then moved on to the other people”.
All this I would suggest would take 5 mins. i.e. taking the time up to 3.55 pm.
TIMET has a joint venture with China (http://www.azom.com/news.aspx?newsID=4405). TIMET also announced its involvement in a Chinese air show (http://www.airshow.com.cn/en/Article/hzxx/2012-05-30/11347.html).
Valtimet SAS, mentioned in first link, has connections to Hyderabad, India (http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.asp?privcapId=24885072). Its parent company, Vallourec SA, is seen here (http://www.vallourec.com/en/; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vallourec). CEREC is a dental company.
If Saad was so fearful that he confided in his neighbour that he might get a bullet through his forehead and also was seen by the neighbour wearing a bullet-proof vest, besides his unexpected departure, not even informing the school, would suggest that they were planning to do a runner. Also the neighbour said that he was planning to tell the police something that Saad had told him and that it did not involve anything political.
More on Vallourec, Valtimet, Valinox, AREVA and Burgundy Nuclear Partnership (Pôle Nucléaire Bourgogne, PNB):
http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/C-Vallourec_expands_to_meet_tube_demand-1703094.html
He says he was taking in the car and the cyclist and having to change his initial opinion that this was an accident. “As the minutes went on” he says.
Now he says he moves on to assess Mollier who he quickly decides is dead. But despite this he decides to also manhandle him away from the front of the car as well – slightly strange perhaps in the light of the fact that he was lifeless and the car wheel was clearly spinning backwards. But never-the-less we will regard this as well intentioned.
He says, “My first attention was with the cyclist and as I said before the car risked lurching forwards … so I needed to move him. I moved him away from the front of the vehicle and checked him for pulse and signs of life.” He then recounts how despite training this was the first time he had had to deal with an incident of this sort. “so it seemed to me he was most obviously dead I couldn’t feel a pulse and particularly the totally inanimate body”.
Let us say this stage of the operation used up five minutes. Our clock now stands at 4 pm. Note: He still hasn’t even referred to his phone.
If the police haven’t solved this by now with such a wealth of information as they must have, they must be really keystone cops.
Now he moves on to the car itself.
“I thought it was a good idea to turn the engine off so I went round to the driver’s side” (it is worth remembering if he is accurate he was already on the driver’s side having moved Mollier ) With cycling gloves on (significant?) he pushes the drivers crazed door glass in, reaches in (obviously without opening the door) and turns off the engine.
“Things were a lot calmer then, the engine wasn’t running, so I started to take stock of the people inside”.
This convinces him that this was not a “conventional car park accident”! No mention you notice of seeing the bullet holes in the glass or what must have been obvious bullet wounds to Mollier’s head at least.
“Then I moved around to the other side of the car” (obviously via the front of the car) Only now, “does it become obvious taking stock, that it was a gun crime”. “There was a lot of blood and heads with a lot of holes in them” he answers when asked a later specific question. He agrees there was nothing he could for them
“The thing that struck me” he says, “was their complete inanimate nature” He then becomes “more anxious and starts scanning the woods for some nutter, or who knows what, and I was going to be the next person shot” It is not until THIS point does he say “I decided to pull out my phone and call the rescue services.” This is when he discovers “of all the moments to have no signal on your mobile phone – that was it”
This last activity with car, passengers and phone must have taken another five minutes, so now we have a time of roughly 4.05 BEFORE HE EVEN ATTEMPTS TO PHONE.
He says, “I didn’t have any instant emotions as such it just seemed to be a very logical decision making process that pilots are constantly trained in, diagnosing what the problems were making some initial assessments and making decisions what need to be done immediately and then taking stock and moving on to the next action. And then from the point that I was unable to get a phone signal faced with a dilemma what to do with the young girl”. He decides it would be better to leave her where she was as he ride off on his bike go for help on my bike, “as fast as I could”.
If we say this would have taken about another five minutes we find ourselves with a time of 4.10 p.m. which ties in with the Didierjean meeting. Remember this proves it was PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for Martin to have made a call by 3.48 p.m., even if Didierjean had managed to phone the moment they met. The only way 3.48 could apply is if either Martin AND Didierjean AND the French Prosecutor are lying, and everything happened half an hour earlier (this is anyway ruled out as I previously indicated as it does not allow the Al Hillis time to get to the lay-by ahead of Martin), or SOMEONE ELSE notified the authorities at 3.48. If the crucial element of the story that Martin reported the crime at 3.48 is false, what is true explanation for the mysterious 3.48 call???
I suggest the alternatives are as follows:
1. there was no call. the story is an invention to explain the arrival of the fireman (men?), doctor and police.
2. there was a call at 3.48 but it wasn’t by Martin or Didierjean
3. the 3.48 call was made by a witness not linked to the assassins (could it have been the panic stricken speeding Peugeot witnessed leaving at about 4 p.m.?)
4. by the killers either as an act of mercy for the little girl (unlikely) or by the killers by arrangement to indicate successful completion of an “operation”.
Any other suggestions on a postcard …
Struggling to see BM’s interview as a statement of truth. Conveniently explains blood and DNA exchanges between BM and the victims and his DNA, etc inside the car.
Could be innocent, could be sinister. Innocent could be the police told him to withhold some details so that they have something to filter suspect statements in future? Therefore he blinks and stumbles his way through – A bit too TV drama as a theory?
Another innocent explanation could be that, in truth, BM was very scared and got the hell away from the murder scene very quickly.
I think he’s lying with the approval of the police for some reason.
If BM was part of a hit why did he cycle back down the road and not go off road on his bicycle? In the interview BM says that he met PD 3 – 400 yards down the road. Given that the road snakes so much he could have heard PD and bolted so as not to be found at the scene?
I’ve seen this mentioned before but think it’s worth stating again: If the girl really lay undiscovered in the car for 8 hours then she was hidden by her mother for a reason and probably told to stay hidden and stay quiet.
The total lack of details is stunning – the interviews with EM and call for help recently were both laughable. Is EM part of spinning the tale or simply letting us know that he won’t investigate because he knows it’s a state hit and he won’t get anywhere?
When the BM interviews disappear from BBC and The Sun the fix is being finished – that interview was only made because of forums like this and this level of interest. Wasn’t the interviewer rubbish? And in the BBC interview the interviewer specifically states that he doesn’t want a certain level of detail on the bodies in the car – as though this detail has been pre-agreed to be omitted?
At present every theory I’ve ever heard can be made to fit – job done.
My compliments to you Tim for your improved English in your latest postings. Its rather good for an American. Of course that is also the only sensible way forward here on this British board. And it helps that most of your latest posts are filled with transcripts of the eloquent Mr. William Brett Martin . Speaking of transcripts, it was rather good to see his words in print, because I must admit that as a non-native English speaker, many words still go over my head as unintelligible. After having read his words he seems very genuine to me, so in this way it was useful that you transcripted them, although this was perhaps not your intention, ever looking up conspiracies as you are. 😉
Wow you certainly live up to your name wry man
It is after all a BBC program. You know families watching and all that..
Tim wrote:
Yes very sensible observation (and as such quite unusual for you). It could very well be.
@Tim
Excellent work. That’s all we can do , call the official narrative a fairy story, and you’ve proved it is.
@Mr A. Wryman.
We have no proof that any bicycles or people riding bicycles went anywhere near the car park. Or for that matter that there were any bodies. We have conclusively proved that BM was no ordinary passer-by. Beyond that, we have a blank canvas.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/feedarticle/10433095
The balkan man the dutch couple spoke about.
“A Dutch couple believed the group planned to spend a week at the three-star Village Camping Europa site in St Jorioz but they left after a two-night stay.
The campers said father-of-two Saad al-Hilli acted strangely during that time, leaving his family alone several times each day. They also noticed an unusual man wearing a smart jacket visiting while the al-Hillis were there.”
Do they mean he visited the al-hilli’s or just the campsite ?
The campsite manager said
” And she said comments about a mysterious man described as appearing “to come from the Balkans” were “ridiculous”. She said: “That was an Italian man who was here. He left and got on his plane as was planned.”
reading that again I wonder if it means this Italian person met with the family and then left as arranged.
They then moved on to the next campsite.
The italian guy stood out to the dutch couple as they mention the smart jacket I guess not dressed in the normal attire of the average campers by being more smartly dressed or more expensively dressed.
When I read this the first time around I took the two to be unconnected now I wonder if they arranged to meet there.
@Jon
Please can you remove my 17 Oct 9.45pm post as the link is a mess and so far I have not tracked down an english version to this story so I am not sure if its correct.
[Mod/Jon: done]
It’s a very good point about that Italian man, Pink. Because the others have digged up something about an Italian man with connections to Saad and Elekta. We must wait for the others to be in.
Did anyone notice that Ahmed Al-Saffar was promoted from Ikbal’s uncle to her brother in the recent Mail article, Oct 14???
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2217000/Alps-murders-Saad-al-Hilli-family-shot-dead-near-Chevaline-shortage-theories.html
Kathy.
The fear AH mentioned,the comment about the bullet in the head,the bullet proof vest were all related to Iraq, this is where the police should be investigating his links to Iraqis in the UK.
Did AH do a runner to France because a visit was imminent or did he have to fit in with someone else’s dates…that’s my favoured view.
That also ensured he would not have time to think about it,change his mind or tell anyone.I do not believe it was spontaneous but he was waiting for conformation from someone for a date,once he got it , they were off. He made an excuse to someone it was because of his sore back………
The police said there were no calls on his phone but one to the school,I don’t believe that either,it’s easy to delete calls received or made.Those disappearances from the campsite had to be for phone calls….to co-ordinate others, further instructions, arrange time & place.
Could the photo session have been an alibi should he ever need to cover his tracks ?
If they are so keen on photos where are all the others ?
Pink :
“Oct 8 (Reuters) – France’s Total and Exxon Mobil Corp have agreed to exchange interests in a range of assets on the Norwegian Continental Shelf, Total said in a statement on Monday.
The deal will see Total’s interest in the Oseberg field – one of the largest oil and gas fields in the Norwegian North Sea and including a number of satellite fields under development – rise to 14.7 percent from 10 percent, the French oil major said”
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/08/total-exxon-idUSWEA394020121008
Tim
Police knows the phone number of the 112 (911) call plus the time of the second of the call. They knew that from the very first second. They dont need to be extremely bright for knowing who had called them and when. Two months ago i called police with my mobile phone because i saw a thieve and i was surprised that they did not even ask for the address. Three cars arrived within a minute simply because they saw on their display the exact location of my phone.
If they are giving wrong information then that info is given deliberately.
There had totally wrong and false information given to press since the very first second. We approved and confirmed that with facts.
I wonder about several other facts when comparing that case with similar cases:
1. No info about the girls. How is the elder girl doing?
We know the Sun or Daily Mirror. Usually they would spam their first page with pictures and reports about how the girls would do almost daily. However, Nothing appears. Completely unusual. In similar cases they follow the kids destiny for months.
2. French police is asking for help and witnesses.
At least that is what was reported.
In similar cases they would have asked the press to display photos of the victims (who had seen them where and when?) and they would display pictures of the scene and of the suspect cars. Nothing.
How could they request for help from the people if they wont tell them what they would like to know and about whom they would like information?
That whole case is a false flag operation from the very second, orchestred and staged by intelligence services, police and private security firms. I am almost convinced that even local police had known in advanve about what would happen and when.
All that leaves one question unanswered. Had really somebody died up there or was it a badly directed show with a lot of errors and unexpected disturbances?
@ katie
The police said there were no calls on his phone but one to the school,I don’t believe that either,it’s easy to delete calls received or made.Those disappearances from the campsite had to be for phone calls….to co-ordinate others, further instructions, arrange time & place.
……………….
They should have had his phone records from the network provider, not just relied on the call log on the phone.
…and he may have been leaving the camp site to use a payphone, not his own mobile.
Thanks for the link Katie I have to work so I can’t follow up yet I am not sure about that story yet a quick search this morning didnt show up anything on the murder other than the translation.
I notice one thing straightaway in that article Felix…….. ‘The family’s next-door neighbours of 26 years,’ no I don’t think so.
The stun gun to take to Iraq….how would he get that through airport security ?
‘His much loved mock Tudor home’ well even that begs the question of why didn’t he care for it then ?
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2217000/Alps-murders-Saad-al-Hilli-family-shot-dead-near-Chevaline-shortage-theories.html#ixzz29dJYs7Ue