Not Forgetting the al-Hillis 22278


The mainstream media for the most part has moved on. But there are a few more gleanings to be had, of perhaps the most interesting comes from the Daily Mirror, which labels al-Hilli an extremist on the grounds that he was against the war in Iraq, disapproved of the behaviour of Israel and had doubts over 9/11 – which makes a great deal of the population “extremist”. But the Mirror has the only mainstream mention I can find of the possibility that Mossad carried out the killings. Given Mr al-Hilli’s profession, the fact he is a Shia, the fact he had visited Iran, and the fact that Israel heas been assassinating scientists connected to Iran’s nuclear programme, this has to be a possibility. There are of course other possibilities, but to ignore that one is ludicrous.

Which leads me to the argument of Daily Mail crime reporter, Stephen Wright, that the French police should concentrate on the idea that this was a killing by a random Alpine madman or racist bigot. Perfectly possible, of course, and the anti-Muslim killings in Marseille might be as much a precedent as Mossad killings of scientists. But why the lone madman idea should be the preferred investigation, Mr Wright does not explain. What I did find interesting from a man who has visited many crime scenes are his repeated insinuations that the French authorities are not really trying very hard to find who the killers were, for example:

the crime scene would have been sealed off for a minimum of seven to ten days, to allow detailed forensic searches for DNA, fibres, tyre marks and shoe prints to take place.
Nearby bushes and vegetation would have been searched for any discarded food and cigarette butts left by the killer, not to mention the murder weapon.
But from what I saw at the end of last week, no such searches had taken place and potentially vital evidence could have been missed. House to house inquiries in the local area had yet to be completed and police had not made specific public appeals for information about the crime. No reward had been put up for information about the shootings.
Behind the scenes, what other short cuts have been taken? Have police seized data identifying all mobile phones being used in the vicinity of the murders that day?

The idea that the French authorities – who are quite as capable as any other of solving cases – are not really trying very hard is an interesting one.

Which leads me to this part of a remarkable article from the Daily Telegraph, which if true points us back towards a hit squad and discounts the ides that there was only one gun:

Claims that only one gun was used to kill everybody is likely to be disproved by full ballistics test results which are out in October.
While the 25 spent bullet cartridges found at the scene are all of the same kind, they could in fact have come from a number of weapons of the same make.
This throws up the possibility of a well-equipped, highly-trained gang circling the car and then opening fire.
Both children were left alive by the killers, who had clinically pumped bullets into everybody else, including five into Mr Mollier.
Zainab was found staggering around outside the car by Brett Martin, a British former RAF serviceman who cycled by moments after the attack, but he saw nobody except the schoolgirl.
Her sister, Zeena, was found unscathed and hiding in the car eight hours later.
Both sisters are now back in Britain, and are believed to have been reunited at a secret location near London.

There are of course a number of hit squad options, both governmental and private, which might well involve iraqi or Iranian interests – on both of which the mainstream media have been very happy to speculate while almost unanimously ignoring Israel.

But what interests me is why the Daily Telegraph choose, in the face of all the evidence, to minimise the horrific nature of the attack by stating that “Both children were left alive by the killers”? Zainab was not left alive by design, she was shot in the chest and her skull was stove in, which presumably was a pretty serious attempt to kill a seven year-old child. The other girl might very well have succeeded in hiding from the killers under her mother’s skirts, as she hid from the first rescuers, and then for eight hours from the police.

The Telegraph article claims to be informed by sources close to the investigation. So they believe it was a group of people, and feel motivated to absolve those people from child-killing. Now what could the Daily Telegraph be thinking?


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22,278 thoughts on “Not Forgetting the al-Hillis

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  • Pink

    Well that rules out that idea then Katie so he probably didnt visit or if he did they didnt see it which is not much help apart from crossing it off for now as unknown.

    A Dutch couple staying at the the three-star Village Camping Europa site in the village of St Jorioz said they noticed the smartly dressed man there at the same time as the Al-Hillis.
    They added that they did not see anyone visit the family, but noticed the unusual man because he was dressed in a smart jacket while others at the site were wearing typical tourist clothes.

  • Kenneth Sorensen

    Pink said:

    … or if he did they didnt see it which

    Yes, thats right. They couldn’t see anything, especially at night. I know that such campers often are nosey, but it should be possible — just possible — to sneak in a private meeting in a caravan at night without somebody noticing it.

  • Katie

    Agreed, I am convinced they were not running,but I do think something prompted him to get to France ASAP. Did he suddenly remember something at the house,something which had to be removed before the sale ?

  • Ferret

    Saad really didn;t want his brother to have a penny did he…and he said the BROTHER was the controlling one. Not from where I’m sitting.

    Dopey, I think you’re misreading the article… it says

    “Al-Hilli kept an eye on the account to ensure that his brother, Zaid, did not make any withdrawals because of conflicts over their father’s inheritance, Maillaud said.”

    To my reading, this is SAH making sure that Zaid didn’t run off with the cash before the will was settled… in this period neither brother should be touching any cash or valuable assets at all.

    So… nothing wrong or unusual about that… It certainly doesn’t make him a control freak in my book, just someone taking reasonable precautions they didn’t get railroaded by their brother…

  • bluebird

    @dopey

    So there are no movements on father’s bank account.

    Does that mean that there is only one single account controlled by that private bank or does that bank perhaps own control more accounts, or else provides a deposit box for diamonds, gold, platinum or some gramm HF178m2 in its own basement?

  • Pink

    Kenneth Mr Snappy dresser was not exactly hiding or trying to blend so I see no reason for him to be sneaking meetings at night really ,I just wondered if the dutch couple had seen him visit or just on the campsite Katie cleared that up they didnt see anyone visit so there is not a reoson ATM to think he did.
    Not ruled out but not ruled in either .

  • olifant

    SGF is the UK Space Geodesy Facility. Surrey Satellite Technology collaborates with the SGF on projects such as the Galileo programme. The Space Geodesy Facility operates the UK Laser Ranging Service part of an international database on position and distance in space. Whilst looking at NERC SGF Herstmonceux and other areas I found this report. Is it the same Mr Al Hilli? raga3.sintef.no/MiTS/resources/D-HA3F_marnis.pdf Final report on the MarNIS e-maritime architecture – Sintef (MarNIS broadband platform solutions and specifications D2.2.C_Pt _5) Version 2.0 Quality Control 04-12.2008 Sáad Al-Hilli.

    Questions ……… http://www.20minutes.fr – — Press conference 6th Sept —- commenced 2pm —- “This case started yesterday with a call to firefighters and police at 15:48. A british cyclist practicing his sport on the side of the Combe d’Iré is overtaken by a cyclist pedaling faster than him. He continues his path which ends at a parking place on rough ground in the forest, the starting point of a very popular hiking trail. There he discovers a BMW vehicle with its engine going. He sees a little girl moving towards the front of the vehicle who collapses. He positions her in PLS and alerts firefighters”. —- Later at the end of the conference at 2.50pm —- “The bicyclist who found the body “usually took half an hour to do this climb”, and he had been overtaken by the second cyclist, killed in the slaughter, at the beginning of the climb. He therefore a priori discovered the bodies maximum half an hour after the shooting
    http://www.leparisien.fr/ – – – 13/09/2012 two bricklayers who are restoring a cottage in Chevaline, at 857, the Combe d’Ire road, (ie Chemin Rural dit de la Grande Combe) are sure of having seen them pass “at 15 hours, maybe a little later.” The two men clearly saw the plum colour BMW estate, and remember that the driver made “a sign with the head ” to them. As if to thank them for giving way at the arrival of the car, because the site encroached a little on the road. Another witness, just opposite, the owner of the family farm Ducher, who was on her balcony. She did not see the car go up. Also nobody has seen the rider Sylvain Mollier, who possibly went up by the Route du Moulin, the other side of the valley. Nor the British cyclist who was the first to discover the bodies. As for the famous 4 x 4 green spotted by some witnesses, it could be one of many National Forest vehicles, very present in this range. Approximately fifteen to twenty minutes later, it was the turn of Philip D …, 41 years to “go up la Route de Chevaline” The hiker, accompanied by two friends had planned a night race in the Bauges pastures. Philippe, who sent the call for emergency assistance is chronodaté at 15:48. A crucial witness. “I went back with the police on site on Sunday to readjust the positions and times,” says the hiker.
    Questions…… From Lathuile to Combe d’Ire Parking is 4.5 miles , the first 1.1 mile is flat and cycling at leisurely pace could take 5 mins, the next 1.1 miles from Doussard slopes up & could take 7 minutes, while the last 2.3m from Chevaline is steep (6%) and might take 25-30 minutes. So where does the half hour start? At the steep climb from Chevaline? But neither cyclist was seen ? Sylvain Mollier coming from Ungine via the Route du Moulin less likely to be noticed? Maybe BM that way too ? If Mollier was pushing hard he would arrive 12 – 15 mins before BM. BM said he « set off at 2.30pm, as usual, » presumably from his home and would have arrived at the start of « the climb » by 2.45pm reaching the Parking by 3.15pm. Although the builders say they saw the BMW at or soon after 3pm family pictures were taken at Arnaud at 3.15pm If true, these negate BMs testimony. As it is implausible that BM and Mollier could cycle up the pass from Chevaline between 3.20 and 3.48 without the BMW passing them on the way. Perhaps, but contary to testimony, they had reached the lay-by before the car. Or he went at a slower pace and the car drove up at 3.20/3.25pm overtaking him just before the Parking. Streetview shows that there is a view from the last chalet in the Chemin Rural where the builders were working over to the Route du Moulin. Also there are a number of people living along that road as per Streetview and Annuaire Inverse 118 712

  • Q

    @Bluebird: From the way you have phrased it, the Chevaline incident is sounding more and more like the Aurora, Colorado affair, complete with actors.

  • Q

    So, one phone has been reported as Saad al-Hilli’s. Two things strike me: Could the second phone be one provided by whatever company he was working with at the time, to keep in touch concerning whatever project he was working on at the time? The second: if indeed Sylvain Mollier sat in the al-Hilli vehicle, could he have left it behind when he fled? This is why I asked some time ago if SM normally took a phone with him when he went bicycling, and if he took one when he left home that day. There has been no mention of SM and a phone at all.

    @Pink: Strange that the Total-Exxon Mobil asset exchange has come up. There was that former Total executive murdered in the Dordogne, whose killer had no recollection of killing him…

  • Katie

    Q.

    If Mollier had taken a phone wouldn’t his wife have phoned him rather than go to the police station ?
    She made no mention of him not responding to a call.

  • Q

    @Katie: I don’t think we know if she had tried to contact him by phone or not. Did he have a mobile phone or not, and did he leave it at home that day? Was it normal for him to carry a phone when he went on those trips? We don’t know. The whole story about her heading down to the police station immediately with a photo seems suspect to me.

  • straw44berry

    Q – Unless she was aware of the arranged meeting with SAH and how anxious Sylvain was before leaving.

  • Q

    It is unusual for a parent to miss a child’s first day at school, especially when it’s the child’s first ever day of school. Such behaviour would be very unusual for parents who doted on their children as the al-Hillis seemed to. It’s very, very unusual for such parents not to notify the school. A child’s first ever day of school is a big deal to the child and the parents, if they as as involved and caring as the al-Hillis appeared to be. Most schools have absentee lines where parents can leave a voice message, any time of day or night. To overlook such a thing at such a crucial stage must have meant something very serious was going down, in order for them to forget or overlook it.

  • rva525

    @Q regarding the first day of school. You make an excellent and I think under-analyzed point. Here in the States (the Land of the Free), we have child welfare services (cops with guns and not very friendly) at our door if our kids miss school for “unexcused” (as opposed to “exused” reasons. Family vacations are very much “unexcused”. I don’t know the policy on your side of the Atlantic.

    To me, it is just too unbelievable that SAH, an engineer with an analytical mind, suddenly just decide to run off to France with the family. Oh, and take multiple copies of legal documents for leisure reading while there. It seems like the press is leaning towards a “just a random gunman” theory, and either its all a bunch of bull#@$t, or SAH and SM were the most unlucky individuals ever to walk the face of this earth.

  • straw44berry

    Certainly contrasting thoughts of the almighty rush to get away but the need to take grandma and then going for a mystery tour of France.
    Why would staying at home suddenly be dangerous when it hadnt been up until they left?

    Just 1 CCTV photo of them onroute with their security sitting in the front passenger seat. I still am surprised why Zeena would be behind the drivers seat. When I drive there is always more space behind the front passenger seat.

  • Ferret

    IMO, most schools in the UK would be accommodating if you asked in advance, during the early years of school when it hardly matters. But not if you didn’t ask – that’s truancy and it’s illegal. You don’t get armed cops turning up though! In later years schools get progressively more and more sticky about such absences, or so I’ve been told.

  • dopey

    Ferret

    They’re not that accomodating Ferret. Every now and again a post pops up on Digital Spy complaining about schools refusing permission. One post a few months ato was in respect to parents being refused permission to take their 4 year old away for a week.

    The schools are hammered over attendance targets by ofsted so are very touchy about time off in school term time these days. I go into schools every day for my job and reception areas are plastered with posters about it.

  • Q

    @Ferret: But missing the first-ever day of school? All of the little one’s friends would have been excited and looking forward to it, IMO. Missing it is something that loving, doting parents like the al-Hillis would be reluctant to do. This is the time of those first day of school photos taken by parents for posterity. Family photos were important to the al-Hillis, as we know, because they took photos on their fateful trip.

  • dopey

    I think it’s optional for them to start school before their fifth birthday? But if they do opt to, then obviously they come under the normal attendance rules.

  • Katie

    I’m with you there Q.

    Little Zeena must have been very disappointed not to start school & go with her big sister in her new school clothes.
    Thank goodness she still has her sister where ever they are !

  • BadenBrit

    @Q and others
    “The whole story about her heading down to the police station immediately with a photo seems suspect to me.”
    The timing definitely is; the photo is not!
    1) If SM’s partner went to report him missing, then in addition to identifying herself with her ID (usually carried in a purse or wallet) she would need a photo of the person missing
    2) If she went to the police in order to find out about any accidents reported, she would probably have a photo in her purse, because many people in France and Germany, etc. carry a photo (passport-size)of their loved one(s) in their purse or wallet. (I do.) It’s highly unlikely that she would go to the police without her purse.
    3) Checking on accident reports, however, can probably be achieved by phone call.
    4) The timing may be explained by SM’s having said something like “If I’m not back by 16:XX call the cops”; or it might be explained, more prosaically, by her needing to go on night duty at her pharmacy at a certain hour, and SM was the one on paternity leave, who was supposed to be back to look after the neonate.
    There is, of course, at least another possibility: She had already called in to the police about an accident (or whatever) and been told she ought to get down to the police station. The mayor of Ugine, if my memory serves me right, then broke the news to her.
    Or maybe she had been alerted by the police in the first place.
    The “suspect” timing does not really make her party to the events in any material sense.

  • Pink

    Another change to story this is a translation link is for source.

    http://news.fr.msn.com/m6-actualite/faits-divers/fait-divers-tuerie-en-haute-savoie

    Wednesday, October 17 – Saad al-Hilli and his eldest daughter tried to escape gunman

    This is a new element that never ceases to intrigue investigators. The preliminary findings of the investigation ballistics and forensics have determined that Saad al-Hilli, the father killed Sept. 5 with his wife and mother-in-Horses
    (Haute-Savoie) was not inside the vehicle when the killer arrived at the parking Horses. Yet it has been found dead in the driver’s seat.

    According to our information, Saad al-Hilli, 50 and her daughter Zainab, 7 years old, came out of the BMW for some reason when a man armed with a semi-automatic pistol has arisen here. Panicked, the father and his family had only seconds to react. Saad al-Hilli managed to regain his vehicle but was executed in his seat. His eldest daughter, meanwhile, was seriously injured when she tried to flee the abuser.

  • Ferret

    @Dopey

    I stand somewhat corrected… I’ve only ever had dealings with one school and found it relatively easy to ask for and get time off. Guess it depends on the school…

    @Q

    The first day of school in the UK isn’t like it is in the USA where it’s a really big deal, at least so far as I’m aware.

    Not saying it isn’t odd (I think it *IS* decidedly odd) but just saying…

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