The mainstream media for the most part has moved on. But there are a few more gleanings to be had, of perhaps the most interesting comes from the Daily Mirror, which labels al-Hilli an extremist on the grounds that he was against the war in Iraq, disapproved of the behaviour of Israel and had doubts over 9/11 – which makes a great deal of the population “extremist”. But the Mirror has the only mainstream mention I can find of the possibility that Mossad carried out the killings. Given Mr al-Hilli’s profession, the fact he is a Shia, the fact he had visited Iran, and the fact that Israel heas been assassinating scientists connected to Iran’s nuclear programme, this has to be a possibility. There are of course other possibilities, but to ignore that one is ludicrous.
Which leads me to the argument of Daily Mail crime reporter, Stephen Wright, that the French police should concentrate on the idea that this was a killing by a random Alpine madman or racist bigot. Perfectly possible, of course, and the anti-Muslim killings in Marseille might be as much a precedent as Mossad killings of scientists. But why the lone madman idea should be the preferred investigation, Mr Wright does not explain. What I did find interesting from a man who has visited many crime scenes are his repeated insinuations that the French authorities are not really trying very hard to find who the killers were, for example:
the crime scene would have been sealed off for a minimum of seven to ten days, to allow detailed forensic searches for DNA, fibres, tyre marks and shoe prints to take place.
Nearby bushes and vegetation would have been searched for any discarded food and cigarette butts left by the killer, not to mention the murder weapon.
But from what I saw at the end of last week, no such searches had taken place and potentially vital evidence could have been missed. House to house inquiries in the local area had yet to be completed and police had not made specific public appeals for information about the crime. No reward had been put up for information about the shootings.
Behind the scenes, what other short cuts have been taken? Have police seized data identifying all mobile phones being used in the vicinity of the murders that day?
The idea that the French authorities – who are quite as capable as any other of solving cases – are not really trying very hard is an interesting one.
Which leads me to this part of a remarkable article from the Daily Telegraph, which if true points us back towards a hit squad and discounts the ides that there was only one gun:
Claims that only one gun was used to kill everybody is likely to be disproved by full ballistics test results which are out in October.
While the 25 spent bullet cartridges found at the scene are all of the same kind, they could in fact have come from a number of weapons of the same make.
This throws up the possibility of a well-equipped, highly-trained gang circling the car and then opening fire.
Both children were left alive by the killers, who had clinically pumped bullets into everybody else, including five into Mr Mollier.
Zainab was found staggering around outside the car by Brett Martin, a British former RAF serviceman who cycled by moments after the attack, but he saw nobody except the schoolgirl.
Her sister, Zeena, was found unscathed and hiding in the car eight hours later.
Both sisters are now back in Britain, and are believed to have been reunited at a secret location near London.
There are of course a number of hit squad options, both governmental and private, which might well involve iraqi or Iranian interests – on both of which the mainstream media have been very happy to speculate while almost unanimously ignoring Israel.
But what interests me is why the Daily Telegraph choose, in the face of all the evidence, to minimise the horrific nature of the attack by stating that “Both children were left alive by the killers”? Zainab was not left alive by design, she was shot in the chest and her skull was stove in, which presumably was a pretty serious attempt to kill a seven year-old child. The other girl might very well have succeeded in hiding from the killers under her mother’s skirts, as she hid from the first rescuers, and then for eight hours from the police.
The Telegraph article claims to be informed by sources close to the investigation. So they believe it was a group of people, and feel motivated to absolve those people from child-killing. Now what could the Daily Telegraph be thinking?
@Peter
You keep piling mistake on mistake… Do you really know anything at all about firearms?
Mistake #1
You wrote (on the other thread):
“Now, the Beretta 70/71 was also available in 7.65 Browning, but it was never used to any significant extent by the Mossad in that calibre. “ – Peter – 28 Sep, 2012 – 2:54 pm
I replied:
Beretta 7.65mm pistol with silencer
Italian Beretta pistols are often used by Mossad. The small Beretta is easy to conceal and can be loaded with reduced-charge cartridges in order to increase the effectiveness of the silencer. This adaptation of a Beretta Model 70 was issued to members of Mossad’s assassination teams (known as kidon).
Page 178, “The Ultimate Spy” by H Keith Melton, Pub Dorling Kindersley Ltd, 1 Oct 2009
Which utterly disproves your assertion.
(I note that you did not have the good grace to admit your error.)
Mistake #2
I wrote:
OK, thanks for the agreement that the 7.65mm is a signature Kidon weapon.
You replied:
That is doubly wrong. First, 7.65 is a diameter, not a calibre.
Well, anyone with a dictionary can look up the definition of the word “calibre”.
Here’s one:
Calibre:
1. (Military / Firearms, Gunnery, Ordnance & Artillery) the diameter of a cylindrical body, esp the internal diameter of a tube or the bore of a firearm
2. (Military / Firearms, Gunnery, Ordnance & Artillery) the diameter of a shell or bullet
{http://www.thefreedictionary.com/calibre}
Here’s another:
Calibre:
2. The internal diameter or bore of a gun barrel
{http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/calibre}
So, contrary to your claim, the word “calibre” is in fact exactly the same thing as diameter, and my usage is correct.
And anyone with any knowledge at all on ballistics or guns would have known this elementary fact.
You continue:
Secondly, 7.65 Browning is nobody’s “signature” calibre. It was extensively used all over the western bloc in its day, and it still remains popular for suppressed weapons in certain circles. US Navy SEALs, for example, at least until very recently used suppressed pistols in that calibre. Pretty much every western intelligence agency and SF outfit will still have suppressed weapons of that calibre in its armoury.
The second sentence is of course true – many outfits have, and do use it.
But the first sentence is another of your “mistakes”.
As my research above shows, the 7.65mm Beretta was issued to Mossad’s Kidon “kill” teams as standard issue, rather than as just “an element in their armoury”, hence it is fair to refer to it as their “signature weapon”.
I’m afraid it’s clear that the elementary errors you have made (and keep repeating) are not those that anyone familiar with guns or ballistics would make.
Hence I can only conclude that you are either a fake, with no knowledge whatsoever, or you are someone who does have knowledge but is trying to confuse people with false information.
Either way I would invite readers to take what you say with a large pinch of salt.
@James
Keep coming with the name calling; the names Teflon, nothing sticks.
I posted a differnt theory about the lone attacker and asked the three people who have been discussing lone gunman, mulitple mag changes theories to comment and all i get from you is a barrarge of abuse.
So you, Puddleduck, and Pater don´t wan´t to discuss one gunman, multiple mag changes of the Luger with me?
Is it just something you boys at Pimlico get post from your scripts?
Roland…
Now that is more “nornal”. Better than “Kathy” had to say.
From youridea..I run differently, but I am more than open to look at what your saying (as no really knows what the hell went on)
So lets look at it. A lone gunman.
A lone one..as a local nut…or one man working for whoever ?
Seriously, please give me your view.
My opiion is that had it been a local nut they wouldn’t have spared the kids.
…and from what I’ve read on here I sway towards there being more than one shooter.
@Roland
I posted a ludicrous posting at :
Roland Teflon
30 Sep, 2012 – 7:39 pm
I´m not going to repeat it, but it was no more ludicrous than Puddleducks or Peters previous posts.
Seriously I beleive the job that was done was a 3 person team minimum. There could have been 4, 5, 6 if you include spotters, transport etc; but lets concentrate on the action.
3 person team: 2 shooters and one person spare.
And that´s it plain and simple.
Hello all I have been reading but not participating and I wanted to ask your opinion about the “magenta ” pictures featured on Marilynztomlins blog http://i49.tinypic.com/9ggfwz.gif
It appears to show that someone was shot by the drivers side front window on the other side of the car park near the sign before the car reversed to its final position and I assume that it must be either the child or SM as the only casualties outside of the vehicle as far as we know.
It is not obvious to me how both wheels are showing that they had blood on them unless I am misunderstanding what I am seeing I did wonder if the car hit someone.
I don’t think we have ever been told about where the bike was found although RAF man did say that he discounted SM falling off bike because it was not near to him and no road rash ,and I was thinking the sign would be good place to prop a bike if SM was going to chat in that position it would be interesting to know where it was found.
The poster and picture creator said “it is quite simple to figure out what happened (not knowing the why/motive)
Look at the blood on the right. 2 pools. 1 for the head, 1 for the body. The spot matches with the frontwheels of the BMW. A 4×4, I checked, so the ‘hard reverse turn’ would leave marks and the upped marks are from the frontwheels.
This will tell you that SM (it must be his blood) was at the driverwindow of AH. Possibly talking to him.
Now the killer comes probably from behind (roadside). Shoots SM (primary target). And possibly already finishes him off with headshot -> You see that this stream of blood goes downhill.
AH tries to escape doing the hard reverse half turn. Killer prevents this by firing into the BMW. Succeeds walks over to the BMW and kills the three in the car.
Girl perhaps takes a bullet when she runs around. Killer hits her for dead.”
(ME)
He then goes on to say he cannot explain how why the body was moved or how casings ended up under the car but he is sure that is where someone was shot.
Quite a few of you seem to be able to make educated guesses do you think he is right about a person being shot there ?
I know nothing about anything TBH. But my thought is, if everyone was in the car and there are two shooters, the child would not have time to get out and run, assuming she was the last to be shot. But none of us knows and in my case I have no understanding of guns; the direction of this gun, the sequence which becomes important if there was reloading. I don’t have the capacity of knowledge to understand guns, I was just winding back the scenario a few steps.
Were the Al-Hillis knowingly in danger, and if so when?
As much as the MO and type of weapon points to a professional assassin and the specific MO that of the Mossad etc (from what I read), it could equally be argued that this knowledge was used to frame another group, thus casting doubt & confusion.
I came to share, understand and debate. Not argue or cause rift.
Last post.
@Kenneth
30 secs of gunfire heard – various sources
“… intense gunfire was heard for less than 30 seconds …”
Sept 5, 17:55 (upd Sept 7, 23:26)
{http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2198777/French-Alps-shooting-Police-question-Saad-Al-Hillis-brother-Zaid-inheritance-row.html}
“… intense gunfire was heard for less than 30 seconds …”
Sept 7, 09:36
{http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/french-alps-shooting-family-were-1309980}
“Witnesses reported hearing just 30 seconds of gunfire…”
Sept 7, 09:25
{http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/9527508/France-shooting-Police-probing-possible-family-row.html}
“… intense gunfire was heard for less than 30 seconds …”
Sept 7, 09:36
{http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/french-alps-shooting-family-were-1309980}
“Witnesses reported hearing just 30 seconds of gunfire…”
Sept 7, 14:37
{http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/9528207/France-shooting-Witness-saw-4×4-and-motorbike-at-scene.html}
“… intense gunfire was heard for less than 30 seconds …”
Sept 7, 09:38 (upd 16:47)
{http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2199670/Saad-Al-Hilli-shooting-French-Alps-Was-hitman-Each-British-victims-shot-TWICE-cyclist-witness-FIVE-times.html}
@Misspuddleduck
May respectfully suggest you go and read the previous 6000 going on 7000 post and then you may be at a level to understand and debate.
If you admittedly “know nothing about anything TBH”; what can you share at this point?
@Kenneth
Witness describes the shooting as sounding “like this ‘pah-pah-pah-pah-pah'”.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19499052
(About 25s into the video)
Unfortunately she is cut off and that’s all we hear from her so they don’t ask her how long she heard shooting for.
Can we try and not remove anyone else from posting here. James attacks Kathy who I always found made useful comments and would be reliable, she hardly deserved to be chased away.
Come back Kathy if you are reading this.
If someone makes a bad comment or soemthing covered many times before, attack the comment and not the poster.
@James, calm down chap – I don’t imagine this one will be solved this evening! In general, there’s no need to comment simply to ask someone what they think – people will do so anyway, since that’s the point of the discussion 🙂
Yep, am frequently away from the blog – an agreeable couple of pints with a pub Sunday roast.
Intense gunfire for 30 seconds to me was a reason to think this was all a fake scene.
If there is only 1 shooter even shooting the way the current facts stand you could hardly do this from 1 location. If 2 are shooting thru the windows hopefully not towards each other.
Zainab, Sylvain reloading …. I struggle to get it with 1 even 2 gunmen.
30 seconds of firing shots no glass sounds?
Firing into the ground the air rapidly to make it sound like what we are lead to believe. A fake scene.
I know we have very few facts and I am willing for some new facts released to blow this theory away. But this is my odds on favourite right now with what we have.
for ref: Sky Interview with Julian Stedman. Comments to follow.
http://video.sky.com/news/related/51029/1/Alps%20Shooting%20Accountant%20Speaks/true
@Straw44berry
I´m open to the idea too that the witnesses did not hear the goings on at the carpark as 30 seconds of gunfire is a huge amount of time.
The carpark scenes indicates a hit; by a team, teams use suppressors. So why then make a load of other gunfire noise for witnesses to then later report. it´s all very fishy.
In this video the bike is mentioned as being thrown away and I cant catch what he says after that is it “in the corner”?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19504295
@Jon
“comment simply to ask someone what they think”.
It was “tongue in cheek”.
Mainly due to the fact that there were many “questions” placed however little in research done.
In frustration, I merely enquired to an opinion, rather than a to “statements”.
It won’t happen again.
regards. James.
Stedman (the acc) isodd.
“I knew him from 2004 when I first started acting for him”
Year ending 2005. Turnover 19.626 GBP
Year ending 2006. Turnover 20.610 GBP
Amazing. Under the VAT threshold. Simples D tax. And he has an accountant !
I agree James eyes are controlled by someone else.
I’ve been trying to find who Julian Frank Stedman’s son is, he introduced Saad and is friends with him.
James I can’t understand it either. Well, I can – it points to income from somewhere else not going through the books, or for that company.
It still doesn;t explain why he needed an accountant. If that’s all you were earning why bother with the expense of an accountant.
Straw…
Stop it ! The eyes !
The words say it all.
Dopey…
Spot on my son (girl !).
I have said this (I believe this)…he was not in Surrey then.
No way.
Over to Stedman…
“my son knew him before that, through another mutual friend”.
fair enough..so your son brings home “very local” people…on 20K per year…for you to do the books !!!
That is a lie ! He (they) are into something else. Period.
Why would he bring his son into it, I thought that part was probably true. He could just say a friend of a friend.
If the stone masons in Chevaline didn’t hear any shots – perhaps because of their jackhammer – Franck’s father, Melvin, was as surprised as his son by this series of shots coming from the mountain while he was going to cut a hedge in the remote village of Marceau. “I said to myself, ‘That’s weird, hunting season is not yet open. Must be guys trying to test their guns before the opening'”, said the landscape gardener today. “This would have been after 3pm, perhaps at the stroke of 3.30pm…”
http://www.lejdd.fr/Societe/Faits-divers/Actualite/Le-scenario-minute-par-minute-de-la-tuerie-de-Chevaline-555890
Apologies for spellin, my iPhone has its foibles.
At the moment I’m still sticking with a Mossad hit.
Anders,
Do you not think that we can find out what Saad was into. Real proof. B*gger the papers they arent doing this.
We have a decent skillset at times here and a fair number of people willing to ‘ferret’ pun intended.
Straw…
“Why would he bring his son into it, I thought that part was probably true. He could just say a friend of a friend”.
True. Why ould you say that.
I knew him through a friend. I knew him. Even my son knew him !
“my son knew him before that, through another mutual friend”.
So…his son nevr knew him, the accountant did’t…but the “mutual” friend knew the son….and saad.
Who ?
He’s not bee back long (or still away).
He’s not earning a massive amount.
Who then ?
Another contractor (he’d say do you own books !)
Senior Al Hilli ? (would he know the son ?)
Gary Aked ? (He’s not a contractor…well not in the UK)
Why would the “friend” say, this is “whoever”….
and then “whoever” says my dad is an accountant..he’ll help” !
…and you’re only getting 20K per year !
I love the outlandish mainstream media theories…
I love the way they require us to believe impossible things…
Like with JFK, we must believe in a ‘magic bullet’ which changes direction all by itself in mid-air, causing several injuries including a broken bone, surviving intact and unscathed.
Like with 9/11, we must believe that two steel-framed skyscrapers self-destruct after having relatively minor fires lasting less than an hour… while knowing that one of these towers had had a much worse fire previously and had not collapsed… and that not one steel-framed skyscraper has ever collapsed due to fire, not even ones that burned for 24 hours or more…
Like with the Al Hillis… we must believe that there was no D Notice, yet all the mainstream media unanimously and suddenly decided not to publish anything that would have broken the D Notice if it had existed, which it didn’t, so they could not have known what not to publish about… we must believe that a single lunatic killer using an extinct weapon managed to get his remaining victims to sit still while he reloads his weapon, sitting nicely just waiting to be killed … we must believe that Mossad’s Kidon “kill” teams do not use 7.65mm weapons, and do not have two shooters per team… We must believe that people hearing automatic gunfire are actually hearing a pneumatic drill… or are hearing hunters, despite hunting season being closed… we must believe, we must believe…
“Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.” – Alice in Wonderland.
Well, surprise surprise, this was edited out of the BBC’s radio programme. That’s right, airbrushed right out of the interview, which was otherwise verbatim! (Or, he re-recorded it for them without the incriminating statement.)
=====
In the wooden top interview BM was also at pains to say he pushed in the drivers window, whereas inspector Clouseau said BM smashed the window with nuuurrfffs off steell
Nope it was shot out at least twice and he blew it over.
Ferret..
I guess, 25 gunmen all firng together..all at once…in tat moment.
Well they would only make a 0.20 second burst !
…and non of them (him) dropped a magazine !
Maybe he can drop, reload…and catch !