Not Forgetting the al-Hillis 22278


The mainstream media for the most part has moved on. But there are a few more gleanings to be had, of perhaps the most interesting comes from the Daily Mirror, which labels al-Hilli an extremist on the grounds that he was against the war in Iraq, disapproved of the behaviour of Israel and had doubts over 9/11 – which makes a great deal of the population “extremist”. But the Mirror has the only mainstream mention I can find of the possibility that Mossad carried out the killings. Given Mr al-Hilli’s profession, the fact he is a Shia, the fact he had visited Iran, and the fact that Israel heas been assassinating scientists connected to Iran’s nuclear programme, this has to be a possibility. There are of course other possibilities, but to ignore that one is ludicrous.

Which leads me to the argument of Daily Mail crime reporter, Stephen Wright, that the French police should concentrate on the idea that this was a killing by a random Alpine madman or racist bigot. Perfectly possible, of course, and the anti-Muslim killings in Marseille might be as much a precedent as Mossad killings of scientists. But why the lone madman idea should be the preferred investigation, Mr Wright does not explain. What I did find interesting from a man who has visited many crime scenes are his repeated insinuations that the French authorities are not really trying very hard to find who the killers were, for example:

the crime scene would have been sealed off for a minimum of seven to ten days, to allow detailed forensic searches for DNA, fibres, tyre marks and shoe prints to take place.
Nearby bushes and vegetation would have been searched for any discarded food and cigarette butts left by the killer, not to mention the murder weapon.
But from what I saw at the end of last week, no such searches had taken place and potentially vital evidence could have been missed. House to house inquiries in the local area had yet to be completed and police had not made specific public appeals for information about the crime. No reward had been put up for information about the shootings.
Behind the scenes, what other short cuts have been taken? Have police seized data identifying all mobile phones being used in the vicinity of the murders that day?

The idea that the French authorities – who are quite as capable as any other of solving cases – are not really trying very hard is an interesting one.

Which leads me to this part of a remarkable article from the Daily Telegraph, which if true points us back towards a hit squad and discounts the ides that there was only one gun:

Claims that only one gun was used to kill everybody is likely to be disproved by full ballistics test results which are out in October.
While the 25 spent bullet cartridges found at the scene are all of the same kind, they could in fact have come from a number of weapons of the same make.
This throws up the possibility of a well-equipped, highly-trained gang circling the car and then opening fire.
Both children were left alive by the killers, who had clinically pumped bullets into everybody else, including five into Mr Mollier.
Zainab was found staggering around outside the car by Brett Martin, a British former RAF serviceman who cycled by moments after the attack, but he saw nobody except the schoolgirl.
Her sister, Zeena, was found unscathed and hiding in the car eight hours later.
Both sisters are now back in Britain, and are believed to have been reunited at a secret location near London.

There are of course a number of hit squad options, both governmental and private, which might well involve iraqi or Iranian interests – on both of which the mainstream media have been very happy to speculate while almost unanimously ignoring Israel.

But what interests me is why the Daily Telegraph choose, in the face of all the evidence, to minimise the horrific nature of the attack by stating that “Both children were left alive by the killers”? Zainab was not left alive by design, she was shot in the chest and her skull was stove in, which presumably was a pretty serious attempt to kill a seven year-old child. The other girl might very well have succeeded in hiding from the killers under her mother’s skirts, as she hid from the first rescuers, and then for eight hours from the police.

The Telegraph article claims to be informed by sources close to the investigation. So they believe it was a group of people, and feel motivated to absolve those people from child-killing. Now what could the Daily Telegraph be thinking?


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22,278 thoughts on “Not Forgetting the al-Hillis

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  • Katie

    Perfectly true NR…… in addition…. all he needs is a chum within the company who DOES have access to sensitive data/materials.

  • Ferret

    … or access to the key safe, or someone who is careless with his/her keys… or he may have access to controlled materials such as zirconium or hafnium, even small samples of specific alloys or isotopes might be extremely valuable, and/or hard to come by on the open market…

  • Trowbridge H. Ford

    And Ferret, NY State is notorious for having illegal weapons, given its stricter gun possession laws, and the fact that states surrounding are noted for supplying them, as this link indicates:

    http://newyorkview.net/2012/08/fighting-against-guns/

    These facts are really irrelevant, though, when it comes to an individual, especially Hershy, who has shown great strength and prowess with a pistol when he overpowered and killed his boss, Armando al-Abed, and then was willing to take on the special forces who were prepared to kill him if he resisted.

    Anyone who doesn’t think that he could have also killed and wounded those in the Annecy massacre are simply talking nonsense. not really interested in finding their assailant.

    Hershy is the leading suspect, and shall remain so, as he did it.

  • Katie

    Oooh yes, Auchi Nigeria & Taurus oil & gas…Auchi Politechnic.

    “Taurus Petroleum Ltd trades, transports and processes crude oil on a world-wide basis. The company ranks amongst the world’s top sour-crude traders with volumes in the multi-billion dollar range. The group’s customer base includes major oil companies such as Exxon, Shell, BP, Agip, and Total and its business is centered on Central America, the Middle East and Russia.

    With its heavy reliance on technology to support its core activities of finance, administration and trading, Taurus decided to outsource its entire Geneva IT infrastructure to Safe Host.

    Safe Host began its engagement with an IT audit of Taurus’ Geneva campus followed by a full alignment of their desktop and server environment. Today Safe Host provides day-to-day user care, server administration, security management and a disaster recover infrastructure for the group.

    Taurus Petroleum Ltd has benefited from a cost effective solution for the management of its IT
    infrastructure maintaining zero downtime of its Geneva systems.”

    Now wasn’t AH a computer whizz ?

    Ben R Pollner.

    Founder of Taurus Petroleum was responsible for over $4 billion in Oil-for-Food deals with Iraq. Under the program, oil was purchased from Iraq and resold to large refiners in exchange for food.
    He is considered one of The Rich Boys, a member of an elite circle of oil and mineral trading figures under the tutelage of one-time fugitive financier Marc Rich.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_R._Pollner

    :Marc Rich

    One of his biggest market coups came during the 1973-1974 Arab oil embargo, when he used his Middle Eastern contacts to circumvent the embargo and buy crude oil from Iran and Iraq.
    American embargo, Iran would become Rich’s most important supplier of crude oil for more than 15 years

  • NR

    @ Katie 24 Oct, 2012 – 8:22 pm
    “Oh my, here is the same pic in an article about him.”
    http://www.theglobaldispatch.com/authorities-believe-sylvain-mollier-the-french-cyclist-was-the-target-of-the-alps-shooting-22393/

    Has anyone verified that this is in fact OUR SM? The pic is used only on CM, MZT, Ickes and The Global Dispatch, which is another of the many “freelance” written pages that look like legitimate, MSM news sources. This one is owned by Brandon Jones, in Tampa, Florida who previously had a blog and also writes for Examiner.com.

    Not that the “true” MSM sources are much more reliable, what with a rolling 15 minute deadline, but some of them still have enough money to make lawsuits over copyright infringement and libel worthwhile. (The UK Daily Mail’s owner recently lost one.)

    None of the MSM have used this pic of SM. They have either verified it isn’t him – easy enough to do by contacting the club – or the club wouldn’t allow them to use it (or they may not own the rights themselves) or the MSM has been told not to use it, which might work in France and the UK, but we’d expect other countries’ press wouldn’t be restrained.

    I presume you’ve checked velo101.com which has four pages of tributes to our SM but no pic, and though they have have hundreds of pics of club events, none of SM show up in a image search. Did they remove them out of respect or were they asked to? It’s like Gareth Williams, few or no pics in the pages of clubs he belonged to, though in his case at least a few were available publicly.

    Am I imagining it, or is there a familial resemblance between Sylvian Mollier and Zaid Al Hilli? It would make a great soap opera or tele novela – family meeting in forest as long lost relative claims his share of inheritance. Big shootout; better than “Dallas”. Orphans – many tears and sobs.

  • Ferret

    And Ferret, NY State is notorious for having illegal weapons, given its stricter gun possession laws, and the fact that states surrounding are noted for supplying them, as this link indicates:

    Clutching at straws again?

    Having been comprehensively proved wrong, you now resort to the wild claim that William Herskowitz must have known how to shoot (in a state with just 20% legal gun ownership) because he was involved with illegal firearms? When described by those who knew him as such a nice boy??? Give me a break.

    These facts are really irrelevant, though, when it comes to an individual, especially Hershy, who has shown great strength and prowess with a pistol when he overpowered and killed his boss, Armando al-Abed, and then was willing to take on the special forces who were prepared to kill him if he resisted.

    Now you make stuff up again – he didn’t “overpower” anyone, so far as we know. He is reported to have grabbed a security guard’s gun, fired some shots in the air, went into the kitchen and shot the chef.

    And this stuff about “being willing to take on special forces”, you make him sound like a hero… whereas in reality you and I don’t know what happened except that he shot at them (reportedly) and they shot him.

    To me this sounds much more like a psychotic episode than anything else, especially given the other comments about his mental state: strange looks, death threats to comrades, extreme statements, wierd dreams of killing/mutilation, waking at night and pounding walls. The man was unhinged.

    Anyone who doesn’t think that he could have also killed and wounded those in the Annecy massacre are simply talking nonsense. not really interested in finding their assailant.

    I’m not saying (and never have) that he “could not”, only that he would be a most unlikely choice for a Mossad operative given he had no military training – and most likely had no experience of firing a gun.

    Hershy is the leading suspect, and shall remain so, as he did it.

    Well now you give yourself away, having clearly made up your mind that he definitely did it, with very thin supporting evidence.

    My take is it’s an outside shot (no pun intended!) that he was involved, but my money is fairly and squarely on his episode being one of psychosis.

  • NR

    Totally off topic, except for Tasers. Came across it in search for SM pics. There will be a wonderful new world when the gov. fits everyone with these. Tardy schoolkids, geezers who refuse their colonoscopies, yob and chavs who wear their trackies at an improper elevation, all zapped into compliance.

    http://usahitman.com/cnttb/

  • bluebird

    ferret

    There is also theft of nuclear material possible. You need just some bribed agents. We know people who are very good in bribing the right persons. “Don’t look where you should look at times and you’ll get richer”

    e.g.
    http://af.reuters.com/article/topNews/idAFJOE77S0F520110829

    http://www.nti.org/analysis/articles/two-germans-arrested-trying-smuggle-hafnium-across-ukrainian-polish-border/

    {http://www.nti.org/analysis/articles/lebanese-inspectors-find-orphan-cs-137-and-sr-90-sources-scrap-metal-trucks-seaports/

    {http://www.nti.org/analysis/articles/france-package-i-125-missing-paris-airport/

    {http://www.nti.org/analysis/articles/france-device-co-57-source-stolen-chalons-en-champagne/

    {http://www.nti.org/analysis/articles/uk-nearly-2-kg-plutonium-possibly-missing-sellafield/

    {http://www.nti.org/analysis/articles/france-two-cd-109-sources-stolen-paris/

    And that’s just the official theft – Taken into consideration that often those nuclear companies are doing undocumented business supported by their own government, we won’t know about that kind of business very much.

  • Ferret

    Here’s something that doesn’t stack up.

    According to Peter, a 7.65mm would leave a small entry and exit wound on a human skull. (Think of the dime-sized hole in Hitler’s head, left by his Walther PPK.)

    So why then are at least two of the victims described as being so disfigured as to require identification by DNA?

  • norfolkeagle

    Re. pic of SM. I think that over on Marilynz we managed to prove that this wasn’t the right picture but cannot remember the detail

  • Thomas

    @Kenneth Sorensen
    25 Oct, 2012 – 9:55 am

    If you believe Hezbollah is clean re illegal drug-trafficking, it´s ok. The link just showed some other aspects, mainly with sources from the press etc.

    I visit all kind of websites to collect info, which also includes sites close to Israel – as well as sites close to your direction. But I´m not pro-Israel, pro-US or whatever. Just interested what was the reason behind the killing in France.

  • Trowbridge H. Ford

    Not clutching at straws, and never have been about Annecy and who did it.

    You are clutching at statistics which mean nothing in an individual case.

    Have never suggested or implied that Hershy had illegal arms – just mentioned the fact to show that New York statistics about firearms possession are most suspect because of the number of illegal arms there.

    Do you think that it would have made any difference if Hershy had lived just across the border in Vermont, a state which has a higher percentage of gun ownership than the national average?

    Everyone goes for the pyschotic explanation when one goes berserk- like when Birdie went so.

    Of course, it was the new inquest in the Bradley case which made him do so, but the gutless British authorities were unwilling to even suggest it, though there was never been one since Birdie is now long dead.

    Hershy is reported to have taken the pistol away from the guard, then fired one shot at al-Abed, and then two more to make sure that he was really dead, like what happened to the four adults at Annecy.

    The authorites excused the guard for not preventing Hershy from getting it.

    I did not have a clue about the massacre until Hershy went berserk a month later.

    Now I think his having done it is an inside shot, and your most reluctantly considering it only an outside shot when you have nothing else is quite pathetic.

  • Mochyn69

    @Katie
    25 Oct, 2012 – 8:58 am

    It certainly does sound a distinctly dodgy place, bodies in the lake, summary executions and the resort of financial fraud fugitives.

    It’s beginning to sound like that place in Twin Peaks!

  • Katie

    M.

    I’m glad I don’t own a property there, values must be plummeting. 🙂

    No need to go that suicide clinic over the border just come to Annecy it’s a free service !

  • Ferret

    @Trow

    You are clutching at statistics which mean nothing in an individual case.

    My apologies for relying on fact, rather than on your fantasy.

    😀

    Do you think that it would have made any difference if Hershy had lived just across the border in Vermont, a state which has a higher percentage of gun ownership than the national average?

    Vermont is actually 100 miles away from Hyde Park, about a two hour drive, and not “just across the border” as you disingenuously put it.

    (The nearest two states to Hyde Park are Massachusetts and Connecticut – why didn’t you mention them?)

    And yes, it would of course make a difference in the likelihood of the average citizen having a firearm, statistically speaking.

    Illegal firearms are completely different matter, as I am sure you are well aware, as they are usually concentrated in the hands of criminals (by definition) and not used by regular citizens for self-defence, shooting practice, etc.

    Hershy is reported to have taken the pistol away from the guard, then fired one shot at al-Abed, and then two more to make sure that he was really dead, like what happened to the four adults at Annecy.

    Interesting… where did you read that? I didn’t see it.

    However, this is also the reportedly the MO in the France serial killings earlier in the year, and they are not thought to be related.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17638387

    your most reluctantly considering it only an outside shot when you have nothing else is quite pathetic.

    You are of course welcome to your opinion. However, I think that someone who relies on his own opinion, rather than fact, and who decides for certain that he know “whodunnit” based on the flimsiest evidence, refuses to accept when they have got their facts wrong, and then tries to denigrate people who oppose their favourit theory are didactic bombasts and not impartial investigators.

  • Kenneth Sorensen

    When you read David’s diary you must remember to ‘carry the mouse ’round with you’, that is to point your mouse to the text, because there are a lot of interesting links hidden there!

  • bluebird

    ferret,

    your are totally right. However, it is obvious if the reports are true that he used DUM-DUM bullets.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expanding_bullet

    That wouldn’t be very surprising if he used a Luger. Then in fact he had used a 9mm Luger with 7.65 DUM DUM bullets. I haven’t found an English article about that, but in WW 1 the Germans used the 9mm Luger with 7.65 DUM DUM bullets.

    I have only wikipedia in German mentioning that 7.65 was reconstructed to a 7.65 DUM DUM for fitting into the new 9mm Luger.
    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/9_x_19_mm

    “Er kürzte dazu die Hülse der 7,65 mm von 21 mm auf 19 mm und weitete den Hülsenmund für ein 9-mm-Geschoss auf”

    So they could still used the 7.65 in the 9mm Luger, although it now became a DUM DUM 7.65 in the 9mm Luger.

    “Da ein Teil der eigenen Truppenangehörigen das Kegelstumpf-Geschoss als Dum-Dum-Geschoss betrachteten und man somit gegen die Haager Landkriegsordnung verstoßen würde, wurde 1916 das Vollmantel-Kegelstumpf-Geschoss durch ein Vollmantel-Ogival-Geschoss ersetzt.”

    In 1916, parts of the German army did protest that the DUM DUM was inhuman and wasn’t allowed due to the war contract of Hague. In 1916, the German army stopped the production of the 7.65 DUM DUM for the 9mm Luger.

    However, you can still use 7.65 DUM DUM in a WW1 9mm Luger. And I sent you links that you can purchase both the Luger Para and ammunition at Christie’s in London for approx. 1000 sterling.

  • Ferret

    Talking of the seemingly-unrelated killings in France, interesting to note that 3 of the 4 victims were shot twice in the head with a 7.65mm pistol…

    All victims were shot with a 7.65mm calibre weapon, a police source told Agence France-Presse news agency.

    […]

    The latest was a 47-year-old widow and mother of Algerian origin, who was shot in the foyer of her apartment block in the Grande-Borne district of Grigny, south of Paris.

    “Everyone is in shock,” one of her neighbours told AFP. “She didn’t feel threatened. She’s a normal person, simple, no history.”

    The killing followed three others:

    27 November: Laboratory assistant, 35, in Grigny
    22 February: Man, 52, neighbour of first victim, also in Grigny
    19 March: Man, 81, shot in Ris-Orangis suburb

    Prosecutor Marie-Suzanne Le Queau said during a press conference on Friday that all the killings took place between 16:00 and 18:00.

    Ms Le Queau said the last three killings had particularly similar circumstances, with all the victims shot in the head. Cartridges were recovered from Thursday’s shooting.

    The first killing was different but involved the same weapon, she said.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17638387

    Could the “47-year-old widow and mother of Algerian origin” pass for Iqbal in a morgue/funeral?

    Could the “Man, 52, neighbour of first victim, also in Grigny” pass for Saad?

    Perhaps wild ideas, I know, but stranger things have happened…

  • bluebird

    regarding the 7.65 DUM DUM bullets:

    quote:

    I admit that I, too, have never seen any really good documentation about why the Germans changed the bullet shape. Years ago, when I had my big auto pistol collection, not just Makarovs like now, I tried loading Truncated bullet rounds in a drum and feeding them, and the results were somewhat spotty. They were WESTERN rounds, not German. I never had enough German ones at one time to fill a drum, but did have a full box of Western. Still the OAL and the bullet shape caused no problems from the 8-round magazine. I agree, though, that the TM08 is MORE reliable, generally, than the 8-shot magazines. I fired with mine a lot in my P-08 Lang, and with a four inch barrel “shooter” I had, and never had a jam with any load using a round nose bullet.

    I never thought to try the 7.65 Para – that is REALLY interesting that they worked.

    I mentioned the MP18 realizing that the gun itself was out very late. However, anything as new as the MP18 was at the time, probably was in development for at least a year and perhaps more before it was finalized, serially manufactured and issued. I based my comments on that.

    Again, though, no documentation! You could be completely correct, although I have never heard the “French protest” angle expressed before.

    Edited for correction of typs only. No change in content.

    John Moss

    _________________
    John Moss
    U.S. Army and USAR 1956-1965
    Life Member IAA
    Life Member ECRA
    Benefactor Member NRA

    +++++++

    I think the most simple explanation for the truncated cone is the attempt to increase the stopping power of the bullet. The relatively high velocity of the .30 luger and 9×19 in the luger pistols means that they have excellent penetration power, but have a tendency to over-penetrate. Perhaps the truncated cone helped to transfer more energy into the target and reduce overpenetration.

    The Dutch army tested both bullet types in 1903-1904, a bit is written in ‘The Dutch Luger’ by Bas Martens and Guus de Vries, but little archive material was available and the differences between ammo types were only crudely described.

    +++++

    Our laws are so dumb here, that even when I had the shoulder stock registered legally to me with the P-08 Lang, had I put the stock on any of my other Lugers, and got caught with it there, it would have been a felony crime. Insane. That is true today, even with shoulder stocks more or less no longer controlled for curio and relic firearms. One can legally, in most of the US today, have a Navy Luger pistol with a Navy Luger stock, or a Luger Carbine with a Luger Carbine stock, or an Artillery Luger with an Artillery Luger Stock. But if you put the Carbine Stock on the Navy Luger, it is a crime. They are exempted from the law as collector items so that only a stock “factory-correct” for a give pistol on the curio list is considered legal without registration with BATFE. At least I can see some logic in that, even though I find the whole idea of a stock on a pistol making it somehow a “criminal weapon” ridiculous.

    _________________
    John Moss
    U.S. Army and USAR 1956-1965
    Life Member IAA
    Life Member ECRA
    Benefactor Member NRA

    +++++++

    Before WWII, Bulgarian loaded 9mm Para with truncated bullets. I know that you know that information and simply forgot it.

    I have an unheadstamped .32 auto (7.65 mm Browning) attributed to Fabricaciones Militares as an experimental that has a miniture copy of the German FMJ CN Truncated the bullet, but cannot guarantee it is pre-WWII. In fact, I would think that it is NOT.

    Portuagal loaded lots of truncated 7.65 mm Para ammunitionstarting somewhere around 1910 and continuing at least until 1913 – I have specimens of those two dates. They are pretty much the “German shape.” Fiocchi also loaded 7.65 mm Para before WWII with truncated bullets of theclassic German shape, but they appear to be tinned, not CN. I have one with no headstamp and two with the headstamp *G*F*L* PARABELLUM 7.65. One has a copper, domed primer like the unheadstamped round, and one has a flat-brass primer. I suspect the latter is post-WWII, and it is conceivable that all of them are, although it is equally possible they are all pre-WWII. I have never been able to get documented information on either the unheadstamped one, or on that unusual “PARABELLUM 7.65” style of headstamp.

    I cannot think of any others in my pre-war ammo. None of the Bergmanns I have ever seen have truncated bullets, not have I sent a 7.63 mm Mauser with one. Of course, all of the Italian Glisenti rounds have the truncated bullet, as you know, and the truncated bullet was widely loaded in 9 mm Parabellum, as you also know, in the United States before WWII.

    I am sorry that aside from Portugal, with dated headstamps, everything else regarding 7.65 Para in Italy and the 7.65 Browning from Argentina is a guess and a gosh. My only pre-war Fiocchi catalog is an undated xerox copy, but old enough to have such cartridges as the 5 mm Clement in it. It doesn’t even show the manufacture of 7.65 mm Parabellum at all. My earliest Post-WWII catalog is from 1951 and that one and all dated catalogs following only show the 7.65 mm Para available with RN FMJ bullet. That is why I hold out the possibility of either pre-WWII or post-WWII manufacture for my rounds. Further, “Armi Portatile e Munizioni Militari Italiane 1870-1998,” by Pettinelli, does not have one word about the 7.65 mm Parabellum cartridge in the book, as if Italy never made it. Of course they did, and for many years. They still do. They also do not show or discuss the well-know headstamp in 9 mm that was a 7.65 mm bunter, the one of the headstamp I report above, with the 7.65 mm ground off. You attribute that headstamp in your book, Lew, as from the early 1950s. I don’t know your source for that information, but it might not be correct, since no 1950-era catalog shows 7.65 Para, the parent headstamp of that 9 mm round. Of course, I realize that perhaps an older bunter was used for their first pre-war commercial ammo, so that the headstamp could be older than its use on a 9 mm cartridge. All very confusing, I know. Just points to the real lack of detailed, positive information we have on much Italian ammunition.

    John Moss

    _________________
    John Moss
    U.S. Army and USAR 1956-1965
    Life Member IAA
    Life Member ECRA
    Benefactor Member NRA

    ++++++

    After I got my hands on a TM08 and was able to experiment a bit, I no longer believe this theory. Truncated cone rounds seem to feed as well as the conincal ones, although a shooting trial with pre-1916 style rounds is still on my to-do list.

    I fired 32 rounds of normal 9×19 without any hick-ups and even tried .30 Luger rounds + TM08 in a Swiss 06/29 pistol. Worked like a dream. No stoppages (and even nice groupings). The TM08 seems to feed just about anything you stick in it.

    Perhaps it really was the TM08 / MP18 / Adaptor Sleeve combination that caused the trouble, but the MP18 appeared to late to justify the changes.

    The TM08 in combination with the P08 or LP08 certainly didn’t create problems.
    (mind you, I didn’t try it in winter conditions knee deep in mud).

    There was a rumor that the change to the ogival round was the result of the French accusing the German army of using ammunition which went against the Geneva Convention and that they threatened to execute POWs found with this ammo on them. But I never found a decent, reliable source that confirmed this.

    +++++++

  • Trowbridge H. Ford

    So you are saying that the gun possession in various states around where Hershy lived is important in determining whether or not he committed the Annecy massacre?

    I do consider a 100-mile drive, just across boders in the States, and did not disingenuously state it.

    I am quite willing to state gun possession rates in Connecticut and Massachusetts, but still consider them, like the distance to Vermont, totally irrelevant in determiniing what Hershy could, and did do.

    Will find a link about the al-Abed shooting, and post it later.

    And your grabbing for straws about other serial killings in France in the hope of framing others rather than what was the reaction to learning that Hershy – who you call psychotic, and all the people in the States who knew him before he left called “a nice kid” – I find most interesting.

    What would make “a nice kid” who goes to Israel for study, training and travel into a raving, murderous lunatic?

  • Ferret

    @Bluebird

    Thanks for the links re 7.65mm para and dum-dum.

    If they were shot with dum-dum bullets so their faces were disfigured sufficiently to be unrecognisable, wouldn’t they have to have been shot from behind?

    As far as I understand it the entry wound would be small but the exit would would be big, is that right?

  • Ferret

    @Trow

    Is there really any need to claim (disingenously) that I am trying to “frame others” simply because I am following an interesting lead in another direction, simply because you don’t personally like that direction?

    And I note with some dismay that you have previously requested that people following this particular line of inquiry should be be banned from this discussion, have you not?

    My goodness, you do come across as something other than an impartial investigator…

    So you are saying that the gun possession in various states around where Hershy lived is important in determining whether or not he committed the Annecy massacre?

    No, I’m not saying that at all. I think what’s important is that he grew up in NY State where gun possession is only 1 in 5 households, so it’s less likely that he knew about shooting (and he wasn’t a criminal or gang member, so far as we know).

    You originally claimed there was more chance of seeing a camel driver going down Main Street than of William Herskowitz not growing up learning how to shoot, becuase guns are so prevalent in the USA.

    So… do you really think 1 in 5 vehicles in Hyde Park, NY is a camel?

    Or would you like to admit your mistake?

    What would make “a nice kid” who goes to Israel for study, training and travel into a raving, murderous lunatic?

    I believe it is generally understood that onset can be triggered by something in the environment or by a predisposition, or a combination of the two.

    But in short: who knows? You don’t know, and I don’t know. You have a THEORY. But you do not KNOW (for sure).

    Now, I think there is a name for the condition which renders people unable to distinguish between what they think, and what is real…

  • Ferret

    @Trow

    Is there really any need to claim (disingenously) that I am trying to “frame others” simply because I am following an interesting lead in another direction, simply because you don’t personally like that direction?

    And I note with some dismay that you have previously requested that people following this particular line of inquiry should be be banned from this discussion, have you not?

    My goodness, you do come across as something other than an impartial investigator…

    So you are saying that the gun possession in various states around where Hershy lived is important in determining whether or not he committed the Annecy massacre?

    No, I’m not saying that at all. I think what’s important is that he grew up in NY State where gun possession is only 1 in 5 households, so it’s less likely that he knew about shooting (and he wasn’t a criminal or gang member, so far as we know).

    You originally claimed there was more chance of seeing a camel driver going down Main Street than of William Herskowitz not growing up learning how to shoot, becuase guns are so prevalent in the USA.

    So… do you really think 1 in 5 vehicles in Hyde Park, NY is a camel?

    Or would you like to admit your mistake?

    What would make “a nice kid” who goes to Israel for study, training and travel into a raving, murderous lunatic?

    I believe it is generally understood that onset can be triggered by something in the environment or by a predisposition, or a combination of the two.

    But in short: who knows? You don’t know, and I don’t know. You have a THEORY. But you do not KNOW (for sure).

    Now, I think there is a name for the condition which renders people unable to distinguish between what they think, and what is real…

    [Apologies – prev post lost the formatting. Jon can you pls tidy up?]

  • Tim V

    The Independent Special report: What links Diana’s death to the murders in Annecy? A French judicial process that lets conspiracy theories flourish
    Inconvenient facts highlight the media fiction swirling around dark mystery of the Annecy murders
    JOHN LICHFIELD PARIS WEDNESDAY 24 OCTOBER 2012

    Is this Independent report a tongue in cheek joke? I was going to highlight all the inaccuracies but I just haven’t got the energy. Yet again the official line about the 3.48 call is demonstrated to be highly suspicious. The Independent says WBM arrived at 4.00 pm, twelve minutes AFTER he was originally said to have made the call. There are do many different stories circulating about this dubious call and yet the French authorities do nothing to explain it (how difficult would it be as it is presumably recorded?)and even more inexplicably, not one paper or news outlet raises this issue which goes to the heart of an official conspiracy and cover-up.

  • Peter

    @ Bluebird

    Unfortunately, every single thing that you have asserted about 7.65 mm Para “dum-dum” bullets being fired from 9 mm Para Lugers is just plain wrong. However, your lengthy quote from 25 Oct, 2012 – 12:54 pm actually answered an open question that I had: Those 32-round drum magazines for the 9-millimetre Lugers also work with 7.65 x 21 Para ammunition. Thus, at least in theory, the killer could have used one of those.

    Thanks for clarifying that 😉

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