The mainstream media for the most part has moved on. But there are a few more gleanings to be had, of perhaps the most interesting comes from the Daily Mirror, which labels al-Hilli an extremist on the grounds that he was against the war in Iraq, disapproved of the behaviour of Israel and had doubts over 9/11 – which makes a great deal of the population “extremist”. But the Mirror has the only mainstream mention I can find of the possibility that Mossad carried out the killings. Given Mr al-Hilli’s profession, the fact he is a Shia, the fact he had visited Iran, and the fact that Israel heas been assassinating scientists connected to Iran’s nuclear programme, this has to be a possibility. There are of course other possibilities, but to ignore that one is ludicrous.
Which leads me to the argument of Daily Mail crime reporter, Stephen Wright, that the French police should concentrate on the idea that this was a killing by a random Alpine madman or racist bigot. Perfectly possible, of course, and the anti-Muslim killings in Marseille might be as much a precedent as Mossad killings of scientists. But why the lone madman idea should be the preferred investigation, Mr Wright does not explain. What I did find interesting from a man who has visited many crime scenes are his repeated insinuations that the French authorities are not really trying very hard to find who the killers were, for example:
the crime scene would have been sealed off for a minimum of seven to ten days, to allow detailed forensic searches for DNA, fibres, tyre marks and shoe prints to take place.
Nearby bushes and vegetation would have been searched for any discarded food and cigarette butts left by the killer, not to mention the murder weapon.
But from what I saw at the end of last week, no such searches had taken place and potentially vital evidence could have been missed. House to house inquiries in the local area had yet to be completed and police had not made specific public appeals for information about the crime. No reward had been put up for information about the shootings.
Behind the scenes, what other short cuts have been taken? Have police seized data identifying all mobile phones being used in the vicinity of the murders that day?
The idea that the French authorities – who are quite as capable as any other of solving cases – are not really trying very hard is an interesting one.
Which leads me to this part of a remarkable article from the Daily Telegraph, which if true points us back towards a hit squad and discounts the ides that there was only one gun:
Claims that only one gun was used to kill everybody is likely to be disproved by full ballistics test results which are out in October.
While the 25 spent bullet cartridges found at the scene are all of the same kind, they could in fact have come from a number of weapons of the same make.
This throws up the possibility of a well-equipped, highly-trained gang circling the car and then opening fire.
Both children were left alive by the killers, who had clinically pumped bullets into everybody else, including five into Mr Mollier.
Zainab was found staggering around outside the car by Brett Martin, a British former RAF serviceman who cycled by moments after the attack, but he saw nobody except the schoolgirl.
Her sister, Zeena, was found unscathed and hiding in the car eight hours later.
Both sisters are now back in Britain, and are believed to have been reunited at a secret location near London.
There are of course a number of hit squad options, both governmental and private, which might well involve iraqi or Iranian interests – on both of which the mainstream media have been very happy to speculate while almost unanimously ignoring Israel.
But what interests me is why the Daily Telegraph choose, in the face of all the evidence, to minimise the horrific nature of the attack by stating that “Both children were left alive by the killers”? Zainab was not left alive by design, she was shot in the chest and her skull was stove in, which presumably was a pretty serious attempt to kill a seven year-old child. The other girl might very well have succeeded in hiding from the killers under her mother’s skirts, as she hid from the first rescuers, and then for eight hours from the police.
The Telegraph article claims to be informed by sources close to the investigation. So they believe it was a group of people, and feel motivated to absolve those people from child-killing. Now what could the Daily Telegraph be thinking?
What we all can do from now on is ABSOLUTELY condemn and derise an individual like Martin Indyk, if he sticks his face out again, just as we do routinely with Dan Senor, chief advisor on Foreign Policy in the Mitt Romney team.
TWO times this year have Paul Krugman mentioned David Frum‘s name. <strong<I've told Paul I will have none of it. [I told him after the first mention, but you know how they are: They want to express their independedness, so of course he should just mentil him once more. But since then, he have not mentioned him. And so it should be. These indiuviduals should be shunned for life for what they have done. Thats how Danish and British folks would have dealt with the matter.
Brief.
David Frum was writing the infamous words about: The Axis of Evil, designed to lure the largely (historical) ignorant Americans. There was NO axis and never has been, but that they chose the word axis was very telling: after all Nazi Germany and austria was in an axis, and these people think that Iran and Iraq [North Korea only throwned in in order to justify the presence of the two others, who incidentially are the two greatest adversaries of Israel] was in the same leaugue. The only common denominator is of course that Jews has a (very minor [after all the persecution of the Jews is NOT the major event in WW2] role in both.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/special-report-what-links-dianas-death-to-the-murders-in-annecy-a-french-judicial-process-that-lets-conspiracy-theories-flourish-8223361.html
The trouble with “lone wolf” theories is the fundamental lack of knowledge about wolves this shows. Wolves are pack animals. Where you find one wolf, others are lurking. Never cry wolf.
@ Pink
taken from your latest link
I’d like to ask the author of this article from where he knows that
“….Chevaline” means horse butcher… ”
How embarassing is that statement?!!!
RAFL
Of course, you are not spot on, Ferret, even though you have repeated the false claim twice.
Said nothing about banning anyone – only said that posters should add or subtract from the items I suggested, and if they didn’t, their posts would be taken down.
Of course, in the process, if followed, even my own posts could be taken down.
It was intended to give a focus to this never-ending, always meandering BS.
And, as for providing links for the most obvious claims, like working for Richard Blow’s farm at Clinton Corners during the summer of 1950, I have found various references to him and it on google, but none I, you and other posters can apparently read, so I shall leave you to do the leg work.
Re the identification – remember this is all a lie / disinformation – my thesis is that there is nobody dead in the Al-Hilli car to identify. Therefore, they have to get round having bodies formally identfied which you need to set everything in train, such as when your grandmother dies in normal circumstances (except if she is Swedish/iraqi…).
“DNA identification” (which is never disclosed) is the way round this. It is used when bodies are too badly decomposed to permit visual id. A bullet to the head, allegedly, would certainly allow visual id.
More nonsense from the French.
Q excellent points – didn’t know that about Gareth W. Who formally identified Gareth? need to search. Did you know that Dr Kelly’s death certificate is not signed by a doctor/pathologist/coroner? Just by a registrar to allow burial. How strange is that??
Photo new to me too Shelock H.
23 Oct, 2012 – 9:01 pm
Correct me if you think I am wrong, but it looks to me like THREE shots to the front wind-screen drivers side, and TWO high over the passenger side, none of which appear to have penetrated. (I can’t work out if the white mark low on LHS is bullet mark or tax disc I’m afraid) There are TWO to front passenger door, plus large hole which may be another either going in or perhaps more likely going out from a bullet fired from the other side. The rear near-side is completely gone which we assume resulted from several bullets. There were at least TWO (seen on the more common aerial) in the driver’s door, plus WBM’s hand hole that might have been the location of another. We can’t be sure how many through rear offside. Grahics suggest lots (about a dozen) casings around that side but we don’t know how reliable that is. In addition ONE seems to have left a mark near side roof. If my calculation is correct this accounts for FIFTEEN or SIXTEEN alone. Then we have SEVEN bullet wounds in Mollier apparently. This brings us only two or three short of the official twenty-five casings found. We still do not know precisely how many bullet wounds to the victims but we know this must be AT LEAST fourteen, probably more. Contrary to the lone psychopath, this was very accurate skilled shoot particularly as we know at least the Al Hilli’s provided a moving target. We must assume the attack came from the front because why otherwise waste shots to the windscreen. Finally it certainly appears like a CYCLING HELMET on the dash. I don’t remember seeing it on the other aerial so it must have been removed. What is the most likely explanation for it being there? Al Hilli was a cyclist but unlikely to place it there if no bike. I suggested a long time ago the reason Zainab might have been outside was because Mollier might have got inside. Its quite natural to take off and place on dash in inside. This would appear to support the idea. If so it would almost certainly confirm the rendez vous theory between the two. It would mean that Mollier would have to be pulled out and dumped. Its unlikely he would have got out and left helmet behind, if indeed it is, if indeed it is his.
@Trow
Said nothing about banning anyone – only said that posters should add or subtract from the items I suggested, and if they didn’t, their posts would be taken down.
Rubbish. You said “think that the thread should only permit posters which assume or acknowledge this…” followed by your six point agenda.
In other words, you were saying that posters who do not “assume or acknowledge” your agenda should not be permitted, which means they should be banned. Different words, same effect.
Any fool can understand that.
:rolleyes:
If this is not what you *meant*, fair enough – but it *is* what you said.
And, as for providing links for the most obvious claims, like working for Richard Blow’s farm at Clinton Corners during the summer of 1950
William Herskowitz was 23. He can’t have worked anywhere in 1950 as he wasn’t born yet. (And yes, it *is* spelled Herskowitz, not Hershkowitz. No “h” between “s” and “k”.)
so I shall leave you to do the leg work
In that case I’ll just have to assume you made those “facts” up, as I can’t find them anywhere – and I’ve tried.
There is no reference anywhere to “William Herskowitz Clinton Corners” on Google.
And the NY Times says Herskowitz shot Abed FOUR times in the head at point blank range, wheras you claim that he shot him first in the body then finished off with TWO shots to the head, to make it sound more like the Annecy murders.
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/slain_in_israel_QWQIDB06GzIpGWryIR8oII
So unless you post your sources I’m just going to have to conclude that these two claims are just more of your made-up nonsense.
@Ferret
25 Oct, 2012 – 3:38 pm
“French officials insist that her face and that of the male victim were too badly damaged to allow formal identification until DNA tests are performed on samples flown from Britain today.”
OK, so Suhailas and Mr Al-Hillis faces where soo badly damaged, that they couldn´t be identified. While Iqbals face was not damaged, as they couldn´t after a couple of days not even tell that she was shoot in the forehead, like the others…
It doesn´t fit at all. Cant´t be the same weapon, which in two cases almost completely destroy the faces, but in the third case is not even possible to see.
Or is just desinformation.
And why should they ask for DNA-samples from UK for Suhaila? She was from Sweden.
Or she might as well lived in UK under another identity as 77-year from Iraq, as I suggested earlier.
The reason for this delay with the identification, could be that they cleanad the net re Iqbal and Suhaila.
@Ferret
Taurus postcode was 1QJ.
There are still two companies being run by Pollner
http://company-director-check.co.uk/director/911004521
one from his home and another from a Post Box in the City, the same address as Taurus Petroleum, TS Taurus Services.
WP Petroleum c/o Taurus at the then no 5 has Panamanian and Swiss(Geneva) directors.
@Felix: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/mar/30/gareth-williams-death-dna-error
Oooopsie. They messed up the DNA.
Early reports stated that Gareth Williams was identified by his family. Then it was reported that the family had supplied officials with a photograph of GW. So it seems that the body, in an advanced state of decomposition, was not actually identified by the family, but by a photograph the family supplied to officials, who then identified the body. How they could do this, given the advanced decomposition of the body, one can only imagine. Why they would need the family to provide a photograph at all, given GW’s occupation, I do not know, unless it was to be able to state that the family had identified him.
*NY Post (not NY Times)
Good point there about cleaning up the net Thomas, but what about Saad, he is all over the net, surely that must mean he is definitely dead ?
I wanted to point out another problem with DNA. Apparently various police forces were unable to identify the DNA of Colonel Russell Williams for quite some time. He left lots of it at the dozens of B&Es he committed, including the bedroom of a preteen girl. Most unfortunately, the B&E samples were “incomplete” or “partial” for DNA. Williams’ DNA was finally traced to him after he murdered two women.
A news outlet has requested official records under Freedom of Information laws, hoping to uncover the exact date Williams’ DNA was first captured, and when it was linked to him, This won’t be revealed, as it has been ruled an invasion of the convicted double murderer and sex offender’s privacy.
Not surprising there could be stashed of weapons in the savoie, and a distrust of officials:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maquis_des_Gli%C3%A8res
@Katie
25 Oct, 2012 – 5:32 pm
I think they all are dead. And for some unknown reasons it might have been important to clean the net re Suhaila & Iqbal. Suhaila had for sure 2 identities, which could be of importance.
Sherlock when I put french papers into google translate it keeps coming up with slaughter of horses or killer of horses.
French :TUERIE DE CHEVALINE (HAUTE-SAVOIE)/LES DERNIERS
to
English KILLER OF HORSES (SAVOIE) / THE LATEST
French Haute Savoie
Tuerie de Chevaline to
English Haute Savoie
Slaughter of Horses
English Haute Savoie
Slaughter of Horses
@TimV
“Finally it certainly appears like a CYCLING HELMET on the dash. I don’t remember seeing it on the other aerial so it must have been removed. What is the most likely explanation for it being there? Al Hilli was a cyclist but unlikely to place it there if no bike. I suggested a long time ago the reason Zainab might have been outside was because Mollier might have got inside. Its quite natural to take off and place on dash in inside. This would appear to support the idea. If so it would almost certainly confirm the rendez vous theory between the two. It would mean that Mollier would have to be pulled out and dumped. Its unlikely he would have got out and left helmet behind, if indeed it is, if indeed it is his.”
This makes sense – under the condition that there really is a helmet on the dashboard.
And the suggestion in media that al-Hilli jumped in the car and left his doughter outside with the killer sounds not so credible. I don´t think a father would do that.
There is also very little blood seen around the car, if Mollier was hit with several shots, it would have left a pool of blood outside the car.
Mollier might have been moved from the car after the killing by the offender.
Or why not moved by BM, if he was involved. Fits even BM was on “the good side” and was only an MI6 observer, to hide the circumstance that it was a meeting.
OK Thomas, I thought you were one in favour of extraction …. which I’m not, but yes there’s something odd about these females, surely that’s why the children are being so protected ?
Suhalia particularly, she is of an age to have been aware of what was going on in Iraq before leaving, so in turn that put her daughter Igbal in danger.
I still feel that’s why they were all shot, they knew too much….if photos are published maybe others will recognise them as high profile relatives of Saddam/Hezbollah/Maliki which would be a stigma for the girls , but who knows ?
Just your usual rubbish, Ferret, as I completed the list by adding that posters could either add to or subtract from my proposed agenda – what could lead to a complete change of my suggestions if other posters showed any inclination in stopping their drivel.
And if they still didn’t agree with mine, there was nothing about any banning, only that their posts be taken done.
So, nothing whatsoever was done about my suggestions to bring some kind of focus to these loony tunes.
And to show how badly you have gone off the rails, I made it quite clearly that I was talking about the gun culture I had witnessed when I worked for Blow’s farm in 1950 – what I am sure exists even more strongly now when Hershy grew up.
And I left the second “h” out of Hershkovitz’s name on google just now, and it came back with the second “h” in it, so just shut up about non existent quibbles.
And I never said that Hershy shot al-Abed twice in the head, only that he shot him once, and then twice more – like what happened to his mutilations of the four murdered in the massacre.
You really need to take some time off as you are getting really weird
Thomas, yes take a look at yesterdays comments, I said the same.
Ages ago there was a comment on one of these forums maybe this one I cant remember now it was about a gentlemen listed as living in Suhaila’s block of flats having had his two children murdered by his wife that may be worth a backtrack just to see when it was and if it was his wife for sure that did it ,if anyone knows where Suhaila lived in Sweden a search might find it in comments.
Too badly decomposed to recognize, so they used a photo:
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3120793/.html
I’m surprised the contradiction ever made it past an editor.
@Q
that’s an interesting side issue. I don’t believe the “messed up” DNA story.
Sounds like a cover-up.
Dental records would then be used if there was no visual recognition possible, and I guess these would have been availble for Gareth W.
I also thought about extraction in this case.
A cursory search reveals NO mention of Gareth Williams’ dental records. Identification by photograph supplied by Williams’ family – crazy.
When was Gareth W formally identified? I can’t find a reference to it. Only the widely reported (Aug 25 2010) Metropolitan Police Service said formal identification had yet to take place.
However only the Guardian </b. reported this:
The grieving parents of an MI6 intelligence officer whose decomposed body was discovered in a flat in London formally identified their son’s remains today, as detectives continued to search for his killer.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/aug/26/gareth-williams-mi6-officer-parents
The guardian story is a lie, because, as you report, Q, the Telegraph reported the photo story at the initial opening of the inquest:
The body was already in “advanced state of decay”, and had to be formally identified with the help of a recent photograph supplied by Mr Williams’s family rather than in person, City of Westminster Coroner’s Court was told.
{http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7975262/MI6-spys-body-padlocked-into-sports-bag-inquest-told.html}
[1 Sept 2010]
So, who is tasked with comparing a “photo” with the body allegedly in the bag?? We do not know. A mystery. Why would the parents be happy with that??
Dental records…
Williams’s parents, Ian and Ellen, arrived back from holiday in Canada and America to speak to police and to identify their son’s body,
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/aug/26/gareth-williams-mi6-officer-parents
This must be a lie.
@Q my comment crossed yours.
Thanks for the Sun link
“Police spared his family the ordeal of seeing his body by asking for a recent snap instead.”
Why the Guardian lie? What really happened??? Why are the family satisfied?? Why is anybody satisfied???
Resonances with the Al-Hilli case. Dr Kelly overtones too….(go and check the id procedure there!)
Really Pink ? That must have been before I arrived on this site then……there seems to be an awful lot of dead people in this family.
Uncle in Bagdad
Saad’s Mother.
Zaid Wife
Kadhem
Suhalia’s husband
Igbal
Saad
Suhalia
Now you say a lodgers children .
Those are only the ones we know about !
@Pink
mrs al-allaf
Hålvägen 6 14753 TUMBA
Search site:
persona.eniro.se
BTW, the other Astra Zeneca scientist in Stockholm I alluded to earlier is
Firas Al-Saffar
Vantörsvägen 105 12557 ÄLVSJÖ
No idea if he is related to Ahmad, the uncle
Ahmad Habeeb Al-Saffar
08-710 29 39 Gustav Adolfsvägen 39 14132 HUDDINGE
Just strange they both worked for AstraZ.
@Katie
25 Oct, 2012 – 7:05 pm
What´s really indicates that Suhaila was no ordinary grandma, is that the Swedish security police ( ie Säpo ) searched her apartment in Tumba – and not the homicide detectives. The later did not even know that there was a search at Suhailas apartment.
This is very odd, and would only occur if there is some reasons to believe that Suhailas activity, or background, was far away from a standard grandma.
Re the killing of neighbours in her area I haven´t seen anything – and if there was it´s hard to connect to the murder in France.
@Thomas – this is the man whose adress is the same as Mrs Al-Allaf:
Karl Gunnar Wiman
http://kenyastockholm.com/2011/09/22/kenya-stockholms-double-murder-update-it-could-have-been-an-accident/
Need to search the Swedish media..
@Q
btw
The purpose of an inquest is to identify the dead and establish a cause of death. How on earth could the Coroner Paul Knapman be satisfied by the method of identification of GW?? Or Fiona Wilcom who was the coroner for the 2012 inquest?? Is there reporting I have missed??
@Felix
25 Oct, 2012 – 7:55 pm
It´s a younger ( 52 ) person than the father of the 2 killed children, but with the same name. The family also lived in Sigtuna, and not Tumba.
So it´s wrong track.