The mainstream media for the most part has moved on. But there are a few more gleanings to be had, of perhaps the most interesting comes from the Daily Mirror, which labels al-Hilli an extremist on the grounds that he was against the war in Iraq, disapproved of the behaviour of Israel and had doubts over 9/11 – which makes a great deal of the population “extremist”. But the Mirror has the only mainstream mention I can find of the possibility that Mossad carried out the killings. Given Mr al-Hilli’s profession, the fact he is a Shia, the fact he had visited Iran, and the fact that Israel heas been assassinating scientists connected to Iran’s nuclear programme, this has to be a possibility. There are of course other possibilities, but to ignore that one is ludicrous.
Which leads me to the argument of Daily Mail crime reporter, Stephen Wright, that the French police should concentrate on the idea that this was a killing by a random Alpine madman or racist bigot. Perfectly possible, of course, and the anti-Muslim killings in Marseille might be as much a precedent as Mossad killings of scientists. But why the lone madman idea should be the preferred investigation, Mr Wright does not explain. What I did find interesting from a man who has visited many crime scenes are his repeated insinuations that the French authorities are not really trying very hard to find who the killers were, for example:
the crime scene would have been sealed off for a minimum of seven to ten days, to allow detailed forensic searches for DNA, fibres, tyre marks and shoe prints to take place.
Nearby bushes and vegetation would have been searched for any discarded food and cigarette butts left by the killer, not to mention the murder weapon.
But from what I saw at the end of last week, no such searches had taken place and potentially vital evidence could have been missed. House to house inquiries in the local area had yet to be completed and police had not made specific public appeals for information about the crime. No reward had been put up for information about the shootings.
Behind the scenes, what other short cuts have been taken? Have police seized data identifying all mobile phones being used in the vicinity of the murders that day?
The idea that the French authorities – who are quite as capable as any other of solving cases – are not really trying very hard is an interesting one.
Which leads me to this part of a remarkable article from the Daily Telegraph, which if true points us back towards a hit squad and discounts the ides that there was only one gun:
Claims that only one gun was used to kill everybody is likely to be disproved by full ballistics test results which are out in October.
While the 25 spent bullet cartridges found at the scene are all of the same kind, they could in fact have come from a number of weapons of the same make.
This throws up the possibility of a well-equipped, highly-trained gang circling the car and then opening fire.
Both children were left alive by the killers, who had clinically pumped bullets into everybody else, including five into Mr Mollier.
Zainab was found staggering around outside the car by Brett Martin, a British former RAF serviceman who cycled by moments after the attack, but he saw nobody except the schoolgirl.
Her sister, Zeena, was found unscathed and hiding in the car eight hours later.
Both sisters are now back in Britain, and are believed to have been reunited at a secret location near London.
There are of course a number of hit squad options, both governmental and private, which might well involve iraqi or Iranian interests – on both of which the mainstream media have been very happy to speculate while almost unanimously ignoring Israel.
But what interests me is why the Daily Telegraph choose, in the face of all the evidence, to minimise the horrific nature of the attack by stating that “Both children were left alive by the killers”? Zainab was not left alive by design, she was shot in the chest and her skull was stove in, which presumably was a pretty serious attempt to kill a seven year-old child. The other girl might very well have succeeded in hiding from the killers under her mother’s skirts, as she hid from the first rescuers, and then for eight hours from the police.
The Telegraph article claims to be informed by sources close to the investigation. So they believe it was a group of people, and feel motivated to absolve those people from child-killing. Now what could the Daily Telegraph be thinking?
And where does this leave one of my pet theories, namely that SAH helped Saddam’s nuclear ambitions? If the family were “in good” with Saddam, then there is both motive and opportunity…
This theory was originally vigorously opposed by Katie (and perhaps others) on the basis that the Al Hilli’s were Shia and the Al Tikriti’s were Sunni.
It was also opposed because SAH was supposedly too young, but there turned out to have been at least a few years of overlap between SAH being of professional age and Saddam still entertaining nuclear hopes.
Perhaps in the light of the BB’s revelatory information about the Al Hilli family this theory might usefully be re-examined?
I saved a chunk of tonights thread here onto Icke, just in case
“In May 2003, Mr X has been on the list of prominent figures to play an important political role in Iraq.”
So BB, he & Kadhim clearly knew each other !
Some more news about Hashim Al Hilli.
An USA customs immigration document lists him as a member of the Iraqi embassy in Washington in 1947 !!
24th April 1947, age 29.
On which side did Iraq fight in WW2 ? I mean, WW2 is very close to 1947.
No Ferret I have not said any such thing.
I have repeatedly said AH was high up in government & the Shiites were squeezed out, nothing about nuclear or not giving support.
Clearly you have missed that I have not got involved with the nuclear aspect of this at all.
@Q
Thanks for the links and the explanations. Dangerous stuff indeed…
BTW, did you mention “gamma ray laser”?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_gamma_emission
Imagine putting one of them puppies on a micro-sat.
All sorts of things might start falling out of the sky…
Of course if anyone would have had access to embassy history it surely must be Craig ?
Katie, I am sure that Hashim knew every prominent Iraqi in the UK due to his high ranked profile in the Iraqi Foreign Affairs and UK embassy at least until 1971. I am 100% sure that if he fell apart with Saddam that he worked for CIA due to his history in Washington and New York as a high ranked Iraqi diplomat, having taken part in many important UN sessions and even at the Bandung Conference. Hashim al Hilli took even part as an Iraqi diplomat at the important http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine
We don’t know what Iraq said about that plan and whether they were negative or positive, but Hashim al Hilli was part of the negotiators in Washington and New York in 1947.
That makes the al Hilli family something special, doesn’t it?
1947 being in Washington as an Iraqi diplomat funded by the British allied government (after WW2 you got this position by the British allies only) is a very very important year for the al Hilli family. I haven’t thought about that year before but a bird told me what important year 1947 really was. And he was in Washington a diplomat and entered on April 24th 1947. Dies that rings a political bell?
Hashim al Hilli was a jolly good friend with Balfour’s son John.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration_of_1917
Bluebird, 1947 the year of two partitions, India & Palestine……
@Katie
It’s not a big deal for me but you did say it.
Here are some of your posts from the first thread:
Ferret, so what about the Al-Hilli’s leaving due to persecution by Saddam’s regime , would Saad have buried all that & sunk his pride/anger/humiliation just to help Saddam get nuclear weapons….. I can’t see it. – Katie
25 Sep, 2012 – 7:38 pm
… it really doesn’t matter whether AH was 11 or 18 he would not have been a nuclear scientist & still attending Pimlico school.
Nor would he have returned , to help Saddam, just after leaving…….when they fled in fear for their lives. – Katie
26 Sep, 2012 – 9:04 am
Saad was a child when they left !
His father fell foul of the Ba’ah party,slowly nearly all the Shia were squeezed out. I posted all the detail 2 days ago. Saddam killed nearly 200 hundred Shiites around that time. – Katie 25 Sep, 2012 – 10:17 pm
Etc.
I don’t want to get into a fight about it as it’s not really that relevant who said what when. You had your reasons at the time…
But now there is new information, it puts a whole different spin on things, does it not?
@Ferret: I should have mentioned, once again, that the 20-year-old mathematician also had an unnamed female relative who was attacked in Greece by men armed with stones. She suffered a brain injury. This occurred some years prior to the young man’s death. The family has other relatives who also work with X-ray crystallography; one worked with Francis Crick at Cambridge.
I have wondered if families of scientists are targeted sometimes. The al-Hilli story seems to indicate that even very young children are not exempt from targeted violence.
Ferret, you are always so desperate to prove yourself right, I find it rather sad that you have to dash off in search of comments to do it……a habit I know of old.
However once again, you have proved me right, I see no mention of Sunni V Shia there….now , find someone else to have one of your long running disputes with because it won’t be me.
@Q
It’s incredible what they will do, really incredible.
Look at the murder of the kids of that poor CNBC exec, for example…
another SENSATIONAL find. Mochyn will like that. But this is a matter of fact signed in USA immigration documents: Please read!!!! I think that this is my most sensational find so far!
Hashim al Hille was 20 when he left Iraq in 1938!! to the USA.
The USA immigration documents show that he immigrated to the USA on August 4th 1938.
The immigration documents show that he was born in NAJAF (Iraq).
The immigration papers are identifying him as a “diplomat” at the age of 20 only !!!!
Due to the immigratuon papers he speaks Arabic and English.
He is accompanied by some Iraqi friends(?), all of whom including al Hilli have a “Diplomat head tax status” stamped on their immigration papers:
1. Shukri Mohammed (25), born in Najaf
2. Hassan Imbrahim (27) born in Baghdad
3. Abdul J. Jawahery (23), born in Najaf, but it is noted: Syrian race (whatever that would mean)
4. Al Yasin Mohammed Hussain Muksin, born in Kadhiwair
5. Abdul Majit Hammoudi (27), born in Amarah
That means that he fled Iraq with some collegues being diplomats into the USA before outbreak of WW2 and he returned only after WW2 to Iraq. Iraq was pro German Nazi during WW2. Perhaps Mochyn is correct with his assumption. I have no idea about his parents. Perhaps they already arrived in the USA before him. They must have been diplomats because you don’t get a diplomat immigration at the age of 20 unless your parents were no diplomats. Was Khadim born in the USA as a son of Iraqi diplomats who did absolutely fear the NAZIs?
@Katie
It’s not hard or time-consuming to find an old post on one of the threads.
Here’s your quote about Sunni/Shia, also from the first thread.
Too far fetched. AH senior fell out with the Saddam regime, who were Sunni & AH is Shia.
Why would AH want to help Saddam ? – Katie
25 Sep, 2012 – 4:14 pm
Keep it coming BB, you are a star !
In 1935, an Ahmad al Hilli (can’t be a father) who was born in 1911 in Hillah (Iraq but said to be Iran at this time) and of “Syrian race” (whatever that means) was not allowed to enter the USA on 8/13/1935 due to unknown immigration office decisions. He did not have a diplomat notice in his immigration papers either. He was accompanied by Kamil T. al Said who was born in Bagdad and who was also refused immigration into the USA on that day.
But no way to track the father so far. I strongly doubt that their parents (grandparents of Saad) were called “al Hilli”.
@Q
what’s the Claygate safe location ref? I can’t see it anywhere
felix, a question
you are the Arab expert. Since I cannot find any father of Kadhim and Hashim, I am quite sure that his name wasn’t al Hilli.
Could it be that his name was al Khateeb?
I find quite a lot of al Khateebs immigrating to the USA e.g. in 1912 and earlier.
Are you sure that his father’s name was Abd El Hussain al Khateeb?
Could his father’s name perhaps be Abd El Kareem al Khateeb? That would fit because there is an immigration in 1912 with a guy born in 1892 in Katana, Syria. However, I fear that his father’s name was Abd El Hussain al Khateeb. Right so?
@Felix: From Trowbridge’s link above:
“Despite the girls’ horrific ordeal, detectives on both sides of the Channel are still confident they may be able to provide vital clues to finding the killer.
They are currently at a secret location close to the family home in Claygate, Surrey, and are being held in conditions of utmost security.”
From: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2224742/French-Alps-shooting-Police-believe-psychopath-mental-hospital-carried-Al-Hilli-killings.html#ixzz2AiyLdyKT
Info re the Iraq Military Intelligence Service (a function was intelligence re nuclear)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directorate_of_General_Military_Intelligence
The current Iraq military attache office is listed as-
48 Gunnersbury Avenue, London W5 4HA.
Here’s someone else Hashim no doubt knew (who joined the CIA in 1947)
http://erbil.usconsulate.gov/roosevelthouse.html
Blue bird didn’t you say that many AL Hillis dropped the AL in the states ?
I have found a vast number of ‘Hillis’ there in white pages.
This makes it look as though the French could have been involved with the murders.
Saddam’s only visit to a Western country took place in September 1975 when he met with his friend, Prime Minister Jacques Chirac in Paris, France.[54]
Several Iraqi leaders, Lebanese arms merchant Sarkis Soghanalian and others have told that Saddam financed Chirac’s party.
In 1991 Saddam threatened to expose those who had taken largesse from him:
“From Mr. Chirac to Mr. Chevènement, politicians and economic leaders were in open competition to spend time with us and flatter us. We have now grasped the reality of the situation…… If the trickery continues, we will be forced to unmask them, all of them, before the French public.”
Again we come to someone wanting to silence Saad if all this & more was found with the will.
CIA documents
Reading this, 1958 to 1971 were significant in relation to Iraq ie British troops withdrew from Iraq in 1971, and Iraq instability started in 1958.
https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/kent-csi/vol45no5/html/v45i5a03p.htm
@ Bluebird
29 Oct, 2012 – 5:08 pm – I never seem to catch up sorry. You wrote “According to our press releases, while Hashim al Hilli did the same for the Arab nations what Henry Kissinger had done for the USA, his brother was just a chicken farmer. Did Henry Kissinger have a brother who was just a chicken farmer?”
No, but President Jimmy Carter’s was a Peanut farmer. Ha!
As for Kenneth – haven’t you heard of ANCIENT Britons? Would you have been happier with “Something rotten in the State of France” or Sweden even?
felix, concerning my question:
This is just a guess and I need your verification. I strongly believe that Kadhim’s and Hashim’s father’s name was Abdul Hussain born 1881 and immigrated into USA in 1919. That idea came from the complete name that you had translated from the Arabic language (Kadhim Al-Hilli bin Abdul-Hussain Al-Khateeb Al-Hilli). If that is true, I strongly believe that Kadhim was called Kadhim Hussain in his documents as long as he lived in the USA. Dr.Kadhim Hussain was born in 1934 (that’s exactly the DOB of Kadhim al Hilli) and he studied in Houston university in 1954 and later he went to Stanford. Perhaps when returning to Iraq he changed his name to “al Hilli” again? Felix, do you think that this would be a possible name scenario or am I on a false track here?
As much as I understand, his complete name means: Kadhim from the tribe of Hillah, son of Abdul Hussain from the tribe of Khateeb and from the tribe of Hillah. Am I correct?
@Katie
I have no wish to have any kind of dispute with you.
You challenged what I said, and I have the right to put the record straight without being insulted for doing so.
The quotes were necessary to show that you did in fact say what I quoted you as saying, even though you lack the good grace to admit it. You were wrong, plain and simple.
And I also have the right not to be harassed by you so please stop.
felix, another question
could that be the co-author Abdul Hussain H. (Hilli) Kadhim? Name spelled other way round. In fact Kadhim H. (hilli) bin Abdul Hussain.
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02772249009357512
Let me know what you mean. In that case we will find more of him if we know what name to search. If true, t seems, that other than his brother Hashim, he was proud to use his father’s name within his name and insisted on that “bin Abdul Hussain”. Though I could be on a complete false track with Kadhim. However, I did not understand why we can’t find only a little piece of his history so far. Could be that we search for the wrong name.
In fact if he was a “bin Abdul Hussain” then I understand better the unknown al Hilli woman who got three kids with surname “Hussain” by a guy called “Hussain”. Usually the first cousin is always married by her male cousin, and that would be somebody whose surname is “Hussain” of course. That would fit. But I need your expertise on that. I am just a bird.
Kenneth Sorensen
29 Oct, 2012 – 5:16 pm wrote “There were only one “invasion”, namely the second Gulf war in March 2003. In the first Gulf War 1990/91 Iraq was not “invaded”,- thats what the neo-cons wanted at that time, but if the US had done it, they would have got stucked and bocked down for several years, just like happened after 2003.”
“Address to the Nation on the Invasion of Iraq (January 16, 1991 …
millercenter.org/president/speeches/detail/3428 – United StatesThis conflict started August 2d when the dictator of Iraq invaded a small and helpless neighbor. Kuwait—a member of the Arab League and a member of the …”