The mainstream media for the most part has moved on. But there are a few more gleanings to be had, of perhaps the most interesting comes from the Daily Mirror, which labels al-Hilli an extremist on the grounds that he was against the war in Iraq, disapproved of the behaviour of Israel and had doubts over 9/11 – which makes a great deal of the population “extremist”. But the Mirror has the only mainstream mention I can find of the possibility that Mossad carried out the killings. Given Mr al-Hilli’s profession, the fact he is a Shia, the fact he had visited Iran, and the fact that Israel heas been assassinating scientists connected to Iran’s nuclear programme, this has to be a possibility. There are of course other possibilities, but to ignore that one is ludicrous.
Which leads me to the argument of Daily Mail crime reporter, Stephen Wright, that the French police should concentrate on the idea that this was a killing by a random Alpine madman or racist bigot. Perfectly possible, of course, and the anti-Muslim killings in Marseille might be as much a precedent as Mossad killings of scientists. But why the lone madman idea should be the preferred investigation, Mr Wright does not explain. What I did find interesting from a man who has visited many crime scenes are his repeated insinuations that the French authorities are not really trying very hard to find who the killers were, for example:
the crime scene would have been sealed off for a minimum of seven to ten days, to allow detailed forensic searches for DNA, fibres, tyre marks and shoe prints to take place.
Nearby bushes and vegetation would have been searched for any discarded food and cigarette butts left by the killer, not to mention the murder weapon.
But from what I saw at the end of last week, no such searches had taken place and potentially vital evidence could have been missed. House to house inquiries in the local area had yet to be completed and police had not made specific public appeals for information about the crime. No reward had been put up for information about the shootings.
Behind the scenes, what other short cuts have been taken? Have police seized data identifying all mobile phones being used in the vicinity of the murders that day?
The idea that the French authorities – who are quite as capable as any other of solving cases – are not really trying very hard is an interesting one.
Which leads me to this part of a remarkable article from the Daily Telegraph, which if true points us back towards a hit squad and discounts the ides that there was only one gun:
Claims that only one gun was used to kill everybody is likely to be disproved by full ballistics test results which are out in October.
While the 25 spent bullet cartridges found at the scene are all of the same kind, they could in fact have come from a number of weapons of the same make.
This throws up the possibility of a well-equipped, highly-trained gang circling the car and then opening fire.
Both children were left alive by the killers, who had clinically pumped bullets into everybody else, including five into Mr Mollier.
Zainab was found staggering around outside the car by Brett Martin, a British former RAF serviceman who cycled by moments after the attack, but he saw nobody except the schoolgirl.
Her sister, Zeena, was found unscathed and hiding in the car eight hours later.
Both sisters are now back in Britain, and are believed to have been reunited at a secret location near London.
There are of course a number of hit squad options, both governmental and private, which might well involve iraqi or Iranian interests – on both of which the mainstream media have been very happy to speculate while almost unanimously ignoring Israel.
But what interests me is why the Daily Telegraph choose, in the face of all the evidence, to minimise the horrific nature of the attack by stating that “Both children were left alive by the killers”? Zainab was not left alive by design, she was shot in the chest and her skull was stove in, which presumably was a pretty serious attempt to kill a seven year-old child. The other girl might very well have succeeded in hiding from the killers under her mother’s skirts, as she hid from the first rescuers, and then for eight hours from the police.
The Telegraph article claims to be informed by sources close to the investigation. So they believe it was a group of people, and feel motivated to absolve those people from child-killing. Now what could the Daily Telegraph be thinking?
NR said:
@ Ferret 7 Nov, 2012 – 12:28 pm
“Another translation of Fred Brun’s death notice…
There are no more Indians but there are still arrows.”
+++++++++++++++++
During WW1 and WW2 and even in times of OSS, the American special forces doing reconnaissance for their units were called “Scouts” and/or “Indians”.
from wikipedia:
Scout:
A scout is a soldier performing reconnaissance and other support duties.
Reconnaissance:
Reconnaissance is the military term for exploring beyond the area occupied by friendly forces to gain vital information about enemy forces or features of the environment for later analysis and/or dissemination.
Examples of reconnaissance include patrolling by troops (rangers, scouts, or military intelligence specialists), ships or submarines, manned/unmanned aircraft, satellites, or by setting up covert observation posts. Espionage normally is not reconnaissance, because reconnaissance is a military force’s operating ahead of its main forces; spies are non-combatants operating behind enemy lines.
see also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Indian_Scouts
and
http://aiwa.americanindiansource.com/specialforces/SpecialForces.html
+++++
That doesn’t really surprise me, given the facts that we alread knew:
Mollier+Brun+Saad al Hilli = Scouts.
I’m reading a french forum about ‘la tuerie’ they have some interesting pictures, first one is a reconstruction about what they think took place in parking Martinet: http://forums.france2.fr/france2/Non-elucide/tuerie-chevaline-savoie-sujet_216_7.htm and the other one is a picture of the surroundings seen from the lake with on the right side of the picture the camping and the last village (Chevaline) before driving into the forest: http://www.survoldefrance.fr/p […] 7/7241.jpg There are two roads joining into the Combe d’Ire, also you can see the small villages the family visited.
perhaps some native french can read something here that might give us a clue, particularly about Lydia’s holidays:
http://www.facebook.com/search/results.php?q=Mathis+Mollier&init=public#!/pages/Le-Salon-de-Lydie/192518150783396
However, I do not understand the family links on the facebook page of Mathis Mollier. It looks as if the Clean Team put those family links onto his facebook page randomly. What do you think?
http://www.facebook.com/search/results.php?q=Mathis+Mollier&init=public#!/mathis.mollier
@M69
Thanks for the dictionary meaning of ‘disparition’, I didn’t know it could mean “death” as well as “dissapearance”.
However, all death notices on that page use the word “décès” – apart from Sylvain Mollier, and Federic Brun, so I think there might be a hint there.
Are there any other usages of ‘disparition’ on any other editions of the paper? Unfortunately I don’t have time to look now.
@Bluebird
My updated interpretation:
Not all our special forces agents are Americans.
Those two are no more, but there is still peace.
That’s obvious, isn’t it?
There is a story to tell but I’m not allowed to tell.
Yes… still mulling this over…
Two possibilities:
Either the friends of Frederic Brun have posted a colourful farewell message which *accidentally* got placed in the “birthdays” column, and was *coincidentally* placed right next to the “thankyou for condolences” message from Sylvain Mollier’s family…
Or someone is trying to send a coded message.
I’m wondering how normal those “catch phrases” are in French, and how normal it is to use the word “disparition” rather than “décès”?
However, my strong guess is, that the description and the insignia of the 55th Special Forces would fit better.
Yes – that emblem and its etymology looks like a good match for the indians/arrows wording in the “catch phrase”.
Re scouts, yes indeed, what if FB was a “scout” for the shooting? I think SM and SAH had other roles, but still…
@P
“ca faut pas faire” I’d translate as “shouldn’t do that”. I read these as catchphrases this man used to use. Lots of people do that, in my experience.
Correction accepted, though perhaps I’d phrase it as “they shouldn’t have done that”, or something similar? I’m going to ask a francophone to translate these catch phrases for me — or maybe Rox would be kind enough to ask on that French forum?
I agree that it’s common for people to *have* catch phrases, though it seems to be uncommon for them to be quoted in their *death notice*, IMO. Compare and contrast with the other death notices (or “thanks for condolences” messages) on the same page – or on any other page of that paper. Are there any similar messages, quoting catch phrases?
@Q
Pilgrims go on pilgrimages.
http://benghazipost.blogspot.ca/2012/09/pilgrim-elite-training.htm
“Sorry, the page you were looking for in this blog does not exist”
Was the article pointing out that “Pilgrim Elite Training Ltd” and “Pilgrim Elite Limited” were previous names of “Blue Mountain Security Solutions Limited” t/a the Blue Mountain Group – the company who were reported as providing guards for the US ambassador who was killed in Libya?
@NR
Thanks for the idea of “Broken Arrow”, it may indeed have some relevance in this context.
Lydia Ringot, Francois Ringot (that’s the guy on that picture together with Lydia Ringot that was posted earlier from somebody) and Sabrina Mollier and Helene Mollier, Alexis Mollier-Bochoz, Camille Mollier-Bochoz, Mercedes Mollier are amongst Mathis’ facebook friends list. There is also a Nicolas Brun and an Alexandre Brun on his friends list, though no clue who those are and if related. I wonder whether or not his friends did write something about the killings on their facebook site. they should know more. But it’s a hell of work to investigate all of the social networks of his friends.
http://www.facebook.com/search/results.php?q=Mathis+Mollier&init=public#!/mathis.mollier/friends
Brother Lep Mollier is also on his friends list. Leo indeed is the elder brother.
http://www.facebook.com/search/results.php?q=Mathis+Mollier&init=public#!/leo.mollier.3
One elder guy on his friends list caught my attention:
Wenceslas Ringard (works at armee de terre)
{http://www.defense.gouv.fr/terre
This guy is on the friends list of an 8 years old kid? Oh my God!
Why does he know him? I mean, he knows soccer stars like Nazri, but how does he know a guy from armee de terre? Those guys aren’t popular, except when they were friends or collegues of his father. I believe that there is a link we should further investigate, and that link is reasonable completely without any kind of conspiracy.
we need french native speakers keeping digging. I’m not. Due to Sorensen I am a half Irish/half Dutch bird only.
Wenceslas Ringard, what a find on the facebook page of an 8 years old kid.
Here is one of his freinds who was 7 years a member of armee de terre
http://copainsdavant.linternaute.com/membre/6016278/1403558486/mathieu_burki/
Wenceslav seems to be a French Karate expert, too:
http://copainsdavant.com/p/wenceslas-ringard-2471673
This is a forum where wenceslav ringard aka “Wenzel” is discussing catholicism, moral and politics. Would be good if a native French would investigate that forum discussion:
{http://www.fecit-forum.org/forum.php?id=17845
No surprise that the French special forces are closely related to Sylvain Mollier, too. Even his son has got a facebook friend of armee de terre. Their clean team didn’t see that, did it?
Bluebird is always good for a new surprise every day, …..
@Felix: getting the exact birth date of SM as well as the AH’s is for astrological purposes only, i.e. studying an astrology chart.
However, I note the Procureur gave as birth dat of SM “April 1967” then there was this picture of a guy supposed to be SM but turned out not to be him (?) and wearing a Gemini chain, reported to be born on 10 June 1965, and I read somewhere else too that SM is said to be born on 16 Feb 1967. So, which is which?
What is most strange is that mortuary notices usually give the day, month and year of birth as well as of death, and this is not the case with SM. It seems everyone is concealing his real birth date.
can’t see this had been already posted:
http://www.ugine.com/UserFiles/Brochure/broch_29_guide_accueil_heberg_2012.pdf
http://copainsdavant.com/p/lydie-ringot-sclosa-16554090
So, there are 2 salons? The other is mentioned Rue de Serbie (or so)
Established 1993
Okay, but I don’t really see that this brings us really further.
BTW: I can say from my own experience, its not at all funny to have the Ex and his new girl friend just around… plus a new half-brother to his sons… plus the fact that CS is so much younger… that’s tough!!
Brrr… think all the gossip ..
BTW: I have to admit SM has a good taste – both are beautiful women…
Re: D-notice
I’m watching BBC news from time to time. And I can see, how the British press is reporting on crimes and victimes.
They even don’t worry about showing pix of the victimes. So, here in that case… nothing at all, or, if any news- just nothing that really matters.
I guess, there has to be some kind of notice.
I can remember someone (blogger) mentioned a reporter from Expressen who had talked about such an issue…
.. as the pix on here FBsite differ from the one in the tv-clip, may be she has recently changed her salon – anyway – not really important
There is a picture of Lydie Ringot on FB with what might be her current husband or partner (Mr Ringot?).
I find that she looks a lot like the lady in blue supposedly filmed at Cathy Coiffeur. So Lydie Ringot might work at Cathy Coiffeur too and the journalists got the person right?
softcat
Sylvain Mollier was born in “avril 1967” due to a french newspaper. no day given, though.
softcat
read my messages above first.
that guy on the photo with Lydia Ringot is her current husband Francois Ringot. (Due to the facebook page of her son Mathis Mollier). Lots of info there!
This is the current husband of Lydia Ringot
http://copainsdavant.com/p/francois-ringot-4501866
He is an accountant of a lawyers’ office in Grenoble (Cabinet Riondet). Nothing special nor anything significant with that guy. He seems to be a normal Ugine guy.
I suggest that we concentrate our investigation on Wenceslas Ringard. He might be a key person (armee de terre). He immediately caught my attention when I found him on the facebook page listed as a “friend” of 8 years old Mathis Mollier. Most likely he is a friend of the family or he (even more likely) was a collegue of “Scout/Indian” Sylvain Mollier.
Hi BB:
re 12:45
What makes you sure that this is the current husband?
I just found a pix with both Rigots – but the man looked different from this one.
Unfortunatley, I don’t find the site again. (don’t think it was listed here) It was something starting with: www. cycl…. and they gave their regards to someone on a trip…. Written october 2012. (as I got it right as my french is more worse than my English 😉
Plus, this guy is in his 30ies… 10 years younger or so…
Hm, I’m not quite sure if it is indeed her new husband.
There is a second guy who is a friend of 8 years old Mathis Mollier facebook page. He caught my attention now (I mean, an 8 years old boy can be very intelligent, but having this guy as an accident friend whom he met in the streets of Ugine? Well, perhaps a frequent visitor to his father’s house. Mathis: “Hey Julien, would you like to be my facebook friend, you’re so cool!” – “Sure, Mathis”:
http://www.linkedin.com/in/juliendimastromatteo
Research Associate Experimental Nuclear Cardiology and Molecular Imaging Lab – University of Virginia Health System
Educational Institution; 5001-10,000 employees; Hospital & Health Care industry
October 2010 – Present (2 years 2 months)
– Development and validation of a LOX-1 targeted probe in the detection of vulnerable plaque.
– Evaluation of New Myocardial Perfusion Agents for SPECT or PET Imaging.
– Evaluation of A2A Receptor Agonists as Pharmacological Stress Agents for Myocardial Perfusion Imaging.
PhD student INSERM U877 – Bioclinical Radiopharmaceutics
October 2005 – March 2010 (4 years 6 months)
Evaluation of vulnerable plaque or myocardial angiogenesis targeted probes (Collaboration with ERAS Labo – St Nazaire les Eymes 38)
Teaching Assistant Polytech’ Grenoble
January 2007 – June 2009 (2 years 6 months)
Biology initiation for undergraduate students
Université Joseph Fourier (Grenoble I) PhD student, Physiololgy –
Nuclear Imaging
2005 – 2010
Bluebird comes up with another surprising find today …… Time to rest in my nest.
shelock
check Mathis Mollier’s facebook freinds page and you’ll know why I am sure.
Shelock
The girlname of Lydia Ringot apparently was “Sclosa”. Since her new name is Ringot, she must have had married for a second time. Francois Ringot is on a picture together with Lydia Ringot as a “loving couple” on the facebook page of young Mathis Mollier as a facebook friend. Sclosa => Mollier (first marriage) => Ringot (second marriage)
Now the Israeli police, led by Chief Commissioner Micky Rosenfeld,it seems, have reported that William Hershkovitz committed suicide after he murdered chef boss Armando al-Abed -omtrary to earlier reports that he had been killed by Israeli security forces.
No mention of how many times he was shot, and how they know that his alleged one killed him.
No mention of his growing dispute, much less explanation, with the Arab-Israeli, only saying that it was the result of a lack of discipline over his employment.
In short, the psychopath killed himself after he murdered a co-worker for almost no reason.
Case closed, and, as a result, it almost completes closing the
cover up on the massacre in France.
Shelock,
you probably meant those two pictures:
That is the picture of Francois Ringot, the new husband of Lydia Ringot
http://www.facebook.com/mathis.mollier/friends#!/francois.ringot
And then we have this picture on the facebook page of Lydia Ringot
http://www.facebook.com/mathis.mollier/friends#!/lesalondelydie
That guy looks different, but I guess that it is the same guy as displayed on the previous picture, just here he has got longer hair and a shaved face. In case he’s not the same guy, is it Mollier in the picture on Lydia’s homepage? Don’t think so, because all of Sylvain Mollier has been already deleted from the internet. Leo Mollier’s facebook page is complete empty and there is no Sylvain Mollier on Lydia’s and Mathis’ facebook page either.
@NR: “@Q
Pilgrims go on pilgrimages.
http://benghazipost.blogspot.ca/2012/09/pilgrim-elite-training.htm
“Sorry, the page you were looking for in this blog does not exist”
Was the article pointing out that “Pilgrim Elite Training Ltd” and “Pilgrim Elite Limited” were previous names of “Blue Mountain Security Solutions Limited” t/a the Blue Mountain Group – the company who were reported as providing guards for the US ambassador who was killed in Libya?”
Yes, that is what this page showed. It was one of the workers for the company, and listed the type of equipment he needed.
BTW, side note to this is the Pilgrim Society that came up in my searches about ““Pilgrim Elite Training Ltd” and “Pilgrim Elite Limited”. It’s worth noting that both seem to have been affiliated with people in high places.
I also want to point out that Saad al-Hilli is said to have gone on a pilgrimage to Qom. Not a trip, not travel, but a pilgrimage.
There’s a certain cleverness associated with the new company name too, as the namesake of the dead Welsh writer from olden days.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Hakluyt
Justine Blondel is the second hairdresser on Mathis’ Mollier’s facebook friends page and she works in Salon Lydie. She is the second woman called “Justine” there
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Le-Salon-de-Lydie/192518150783396?sk=info
http://www.facebook.com/justine.blondel.31/friends
Interestingly, Justine is also a friend of the Dimastromatteo family and she is also a friend og the Gymnastique club of Ugine (same as Mathis). Justine has Leo Mollier also as her friend on facebook and they share friendship (Mathis and Justine) with Stephane Rambaud. Justine has even Savrina Mollier as her friend.
She is friend of Nicholas Mollier and Jeanmichel Mollier-Carroz. Justine Blondel has links to the inner cricle of the Mollier family and she is a hairdresser and she is a beauty salon expert, too.
So that’s the second woman in Lydia’s hairdressing saloon riddle solved.
“Other neighbours in Claygate described Mr Al-Hilli as a devoted family man who ‘had no enemies’. George Aicolina said: ‘This doesn’t add up. He’s no Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy. I very much doubt the Establishment would want to get rid of him.”
Another case of saying more than you are asked.
@Bluebird: In early versions of this tale, reported in the news, both boys were said to be teenagers. I thought this was rather strange on MM’s FB page: shotgun, car, motorcycle, an eye.
http://fr-fr.facebook.com/tuniiingPlus
Oops, here I go again, Ferret. I meant Ferret in previous post, not NR.
As for the term “scout”, oil companies have scouts, too. They aren’t always looking for oil.
@Q
I also want to point out that Saad al-Hilli is said to have gone on a pilgrimage to Qom. Not a trip, not travel, but a pilgrimage.
Thanks Q, and yes, I picked up on this tantalising resonance right from your first post.
🙂
Sorry I didn’t say so earlier – I was catching up with a lot of posts at one go and that slipped through the net.
BTW, what’s the link between Hakluyt & Co and Pilgrim Elite aka Blue Mountain? And between these two and Pilgrims Group? Am I missing something obvious?
Bill the triathlete and Molly the uphill specialist roadracer.
Maybe they liked riding downhills better than riding up.
There can’t be a shortage of hills…in the Alps, surely.
Two fit guys. Riding bikes. Up a hill “famous with hikers”.
Thanks Bluebird. I am seeing Bill and Molly together.
Why does his son know older men from the army ?
@Bluebird:
The countries on the friend of friend’s list read like a soldier of fortune’s dream, don’t you think: Ivory Coast, French Guyana, Senegal.
To sum up what we have learnt from Mathis’ Mollier facebook seit today:
1. Mathis Mollier is 8-10 years old.
2. His brother Leo is the elder brother but his facebook site is empty. Many thanks to the Clean Team!
3. Mathis’ and Leo’s mother is Lidya Ringot (her maiden name is Sclosa) who now married is with Francois Ringot who is that guy with those sun glasses on her facebook page picture.
4. Lydia (Lydie) Ringot runs the coiffeur Lydia.
5. In coiffer Lydia there also works a young woman whose name is Justine Blondel. Blondel has intense facebook contacts with the whole rest of the Mollier family, too. However, she seems to be much too young for being the mother of the two. Justine’s apparent boyfriend is Lolo la Fouine. Lolo’s friends are more or less the same friends as they are Justine’s friends.
6. The most interesting friends on Mathi’s facebook page are:
a. Julien Dimastromatteo, the nuclear technology specialist, working in Research at University of Virginia
b. Wenceslas Ringard (from armee de terre) http://www.defense.gouv.fr/terre
How come that a young boy has got such facebook friends? That’s the system of facebook. My father’s friends become my friends, too, when my father was my friend on facebook.
Ref. word association someone on here said “It’s prob staring us in the face” How about the sign at the car park. Have I got it right? Reserve nationale de chasse de le loup des bauges – National Reserve hunting the wolf bauges. Hunting wolves in a reserve – now that’s an idea. There’s a film about a group of “spies” after the plans for an anti-aircraft gun, and the leader uses the opportunity to embroil the Lone Wolf in the plot… SeeThe Lone Wolf Spy Hunt (1939)
Directed by Peter Godfrey.
One of the recognised ways of trapping and killing wolves was by Luring
A pig was used as a decoy and was transported in a strong canvas sack on a horse drawn sleigh. The pig, kept in the canvas bag, was made to squeal in order to attract the wolves. Hunters would wait at a distance to shoot the wolves when they came out after the pig. Once the wolves arrived, the hunters would either shoot them or retrieve the pig and canvas bag. In the latter case, they took off down the road, luring the wolves behind. The wolves would be lead to a palisade, where they would be trapped and shot.[81][82]
Then there is the famous East German spy chief Markus Johannes “Mischa” Wolf (19 January 1923 – 9 November 2006) was head of the General Intelligence Administration(Hauptverwaltung Aufklärung), the foreign intelligence division of East Germany’s Ministry for State Security (MfS, commonly known as the Stasi). He was the MfS’s number two for 34 years, which spanned most of the Cold War. Many intelligence experts regard him as one of the greatest spymasters of all time.
John le Carré’s fictional spymaster Karla, a Russian, who appears in Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy, The Honourable Schoolboy and Smiley’s People was believed by some readers to be modeled on Wolf.[7] However, the writer has repeatedly denied this, and did so once again when interviewed on the occasion of Wolf’s death.[8]
Another le Carré character, who in fact comes even closer than Karla, is Fiedler in The Spy Who Came In From The Cold. He is depicted as a German Jew who spent World War II in exile and came back to gain a senior position in East Germany’s Intelligence Service.
Q
Armee de Terre are France’s Special Forces. They are being deployed in- and outside France for special operations, that includes Afghanistan and Iraq.