The mainstream media for the most part has moved on. But there are a few more gleanings to be had, of perhaps the most interesting comes from the Daily Mirror, which labels al-Hilli an extremist on the grounds that he was against the war in Iraq, disapproved of the behaviour of Israel and had doubts over 9/11 – which makes a great deal of the population “extremist”. But the Mirror has the only mainstream mention I can find of the possibility that Mossad carried out the killings. Given Mr al-Hilli’s profession, the fact he is a Shia, the fact he had visited Iran, and the fact that Israel heas been assassinating scientists connected to Iran’s nuclear programme, this has to be a possibility. There are of course other possibilities, but to ignore that one is ludicrous.
Which leads me to the argument of Daily Mail crime reporter, Stephen Wright, that the French police should concentrate on the idea that this was a killing by a random Alpine madman or racist bigot. Perfectly possible, of course, and the anti-Muslim killings in Marseille might be as much a precedent as Mossad killings of scientists. But why the lone madman idea should be the preferred investigation, Mr Wright does not explain. What I did find interesting from a man who has visited many crime scenes are his repeated insinuations that the French authorities are not really trying very hard to find who the killers were, for example:
the crime scene would have been sealed off for a minimum of seven to ten days, to allow detailed forensic searches for DNA, fibres, tyre marks and shoe prints to take place.
Nearby bushes and vegetation would have been searched for any discarded food and cigarette butts left by the killer, not to mention the murder weapon.
But from what I saw at the end of last week, no such searches had taken place and potentially vital evidence could have been missed. House to house inquiries in the local area had yet to be completed and police had not made specific public appeals for information about the crime. No reward had been put up for information about the shootings.
Behind the scenes, what other short cuts have been taken? Have police seized data identifying all mobile phones being used in the vicinity of the murders that day?
The idea that the French authorities – who are quite as capable as any other of solving cases – are not really trying very hard is an interesting one.
Which leads me to this part of a remarkable article from the Daily Telegraph, which if true points us back towards a hit squad and discounts the ides that there was only one gun:
Claims that only one gun was used to kill everybody is likely to be disproved by full ballistics test results which are out in October.
While the 25 spent bullet cartridges found at the scene are all of the same kind, they could in fact have come from a number of weapons of the same make.
This throws up the possibility of a well-equipped, highly-trained gang circling the car and then opening fire.
Both children were left alive by the killers, who had clinically pumped bullets into everybody else, including five into Mr Mollier.
Zainab was found staggering around outside the car by Brett Martin, a British former RAF serviceman who cycled by moments after the attack, but he saw nobody except the schoolgirl.
Her sister, Zeena, was found unscathed and hiding in the car eight hours later.
Both sisters are now back in Britain, and are believed to have been reunited at a secret location near London.
There are of course a number of hit squad options, both governmental and private, which might well involve iraqi or Iranian interests – on both of which the mainstream media have been very happy to speculate while almost unanimously ignoring Israel.
But what interests me is why the Daily Telegraph choose, in the face of all the evidence, to minimise the horrific nature of the attack by stating that “Both children were left alive by the killers”? Zainab was not left alive by design, she was shot in the chest and her skull was stove in, which presumably was a pretty serious attempt to kill a seven year-old child. The other girl might very well have succeeded in hiding from the killers under her mother’s skirts, as she hid from the first rescuers, and then for eight hours from the police.
The Telegraph article claims to be informed by sources close to the investigation. So they believe it was a group of people, and feel motivated to absolve those people from child-killing. Now what could the Daily Telegraph be thinking?
Sherlock…
Then yes, maybe (the last point only).
The others would mean, he leaves his job.
You can’t say “I have come into some cash, can I have three years off” !
And anyway, his dad didn’t die three years ago.
So typo …or real. Who knows. Some people do !
And THAT is the point.
They KNOW, but they are not saying. Why ?
Or rather ask, who was Mollier ?
shelock
we were talking about francois ringot. we never talked about Brun in connection with Lydia Ringot. Fracois is her husband. Otherwise her name would not be Ringot. I haven’t seen another Ringot on Mathis’ facebook page nor on the facebook page of her friend Juliet Blondel. So where is her husband whose name is Ringot if it isn’t Francois? The guy with the sun glasses is Francois Ringot. That picture is on his facebook site.
Shelock
He had a baby boy. But then, he wasn’t in parental-care for three years. Perhaps for 1 month. However, they said – as much as I understood – that he didn’t work for Cezus for 3 years because he was in parental care. Whether or not that is true, you won’t get 3 years for parental care. Not even mothers are getting such a long time, forget about fathers.
Shelock, Mathis must be much older than 7 today. Otherwise he went to primary school at the age of 3. I don’t think so or else he would be a genius child. He is 9 or 10 years old. Leo lookss much older on his facebook photo. 14-16.
ferret:
yes, it works- just tried with this lady (may she rest in peace)
Madame Catherine SAINT MARTIN née DUZON
and you get a PDF- as you wish.
And, as you are already searching, go back into june- who has died in june- and have a look if you find the birth note of Louis Mollier, I tried recently, without success- May be you find sth?!
@ James
(my name is Shelock- not Sherlock 😉
So may be I got it wrong?
I think, he has just started his father-off-the-job-time, when Louis had been born.
His father died last year, as far as I know.
So what’s wrong??
@Bluebird @Sherlock
Thanks very much for the help.
🙂
I’ve just posted on the French forum Rox recommended earlier.
http://forums.france2.fr/france2/Non-elucide/tuerie-chevaline-savoie-sujet_216_10.htm
My French is terrible, hopefully someone will be able to decipher my scrawlings and reply…
And I’ve asked someone I know who knows someone who is a francophone… hopefully will get some proper answers to what it all means, and whether it’s normal or weird, etc.
Nothings wrong.
Mollier just seems to be “Mr Nothing Here To See”.
@ BB:
“”http://www.dailymail.co.uk/…/The-man-whos-key-Alp… – Diese Seite übersetzen
30 Oct 2012 – Cyclist Sylvain Mollier was originally written off as collateral damage in the Alpine massacre. … He had two teenage sons, Leo and Mathis, seven, from a marriage which ended in divorce more than six ….””
So, that means the daily mail has given us wrong ages of the sons?
With the two Ringots I’ll go and check again 😉
My view is that Molly never overtook Billy.
More like Molly “raced ahead” on hearing the shooting start.
That fits better with “the events”.
Otherwise it would be “the killer(s)” meeting with two people (Sa’ad and Molly). I can’t see that.
I see Sa’ad meeting with someone or some people…and Mollier and Martin are “around” for some type of protection.
And I suspect that “they” have met before (and Bill and Molly have met Sa’ad) in the village just before the drive up to the “carpark”.
Just my view.
shelock
age of Mathis must be wrong.
I don’t see them giving us an age for Leo.
Mathis must be 9 or 10, perhaps he is still 8 when he was a genius and going to school at the age of early 5. But certainly he is not 7.
I don’t trust the media at all. There was so much wrong what they had reported so far. It’s a fairy tale.
shelock
Knowing the age of Mathis won’t bring us any further. We simply know once again that the media wrote nonsense when we can proof that he has got a different age. It would be easy to confirm. There are most of his classmates on his facebook friends site. I bet that at least one of them did participate in a sports event and we could find the year of his birth. When we know the DOB of one of his classmates, we know how old he is. But that doesn’t help us to solve that riddle, so I won’t waste my time in doing that. Feel free to do that if you wish.
http://www.libramemoria.com/fr/index.html look up Savoie – 73 / commune – Ugine This gives a record of notices printed in the newspaper
Parental leave in France
This was discussed earlier but, for those not present, here is the detail again. In short, three years parental leave is quite normal. (NB The last sentence below is a little misleading. It is trying to say “one year, applied for three times”.)
Source: www.citiesforchildren.eu/…/Parental_leave _in_France_Strasbourg.pdf
The right to parental leave has been steadily assuming a more detailed form over the last twenty years. It first appeared on the statute books in 1977, but it was only in 1984 that the “Allocation parentale d’éducation” or APE – an allowance for taking leave to raise children – was established. The objective of this was to compensate for the loss of earnings resulting from the suspension of a contract of employment. In 1995, the measure was extended again.
The current position of the law is as follows:
• An obligation for employers.
• All employees with children under three can ask for parental child-raising leave (congé parental d’éducation), whatever the size of the company they work for. The employees may either stop work or work part time. The application can be made at any time between the end of maternity leave and the child’s third birthday, or after the adoption of a child under 16. The only condition that the employees must satisfy is to have worked for at least one year in the company at the time the child is born.
• The length of parental leave is one year, and can be renewed three times.
http://uk.onlinenigeria.com/news/77623-the-man-who-s-key-to-…
31 Oct 2012 … He had two sons, Leo, nine, and Mathis, seven, from a marriage which ended in divorce more than six years ago, after Mr Mollier reportedly
as well at MZT’s site….
but you’re right, it doesn’t brings us any further
re Ringot Francois
you mentioned, this would be her new husband:
http://copainsdavant.com/p/francois-ringot-4501866
then once again, I went to Mathis’ FB-site and had a look
for his mothers pix- together with a man….
And I still say- these two men are not identical.
For the names of Francois Ringot in France –
http://www.pagesjaunes.fr/pagesblanches/RecherchePagesBlanchesExpress.do?portail=PJ
There are several FR’s available.
so I don’t see why this sunglass-guy should be his new husband.
I would say, it’s the guy with her on the pix on her sons FB-site.
IMHO
But I agree with you that Mathis must be a teenager (at least 11/12 -may be even older) it would be -even for a nine-year-old guy strange to have so many friends – older than him. L
Beside, his own pic- he’s looking more like 9 or 10.
Strange as usual…
So here we go again- we can never be sure what THEY are trying to feet us.
We have barely NO facts.
Mais. la vie est dure sans confiture.
Somebody should go to Chevaline for a new haircut plus a facial around the corner
Good place to catch some gossip…
And at the same time looking for the roads and places up in the woods.
BTW: i had a look at le dauphine in the morning…. there’s been another murder close to Chevaline… the wappon is supposed to be a chase-wappon….
@Tim: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viande_de_cheval
and more:
http://www.soslang.com/search/oighh
@ Shelock H. 8 Nov, 2012 – 5:22 pm
“@ James:
may be they got it wrong, yes it’s a long time.
But we don’t know the facts.
May be he was about to change his job
May be he was about to be self-emloyed – or part-time
or… or… or”
I vaguely recall reading something, must have been in the UK papers, where they quoted someone as saying SM had, or was about to start, his own business. The remark could have been about SAH except it doesn’t make sense since SAH already was a contractor or freelancer operating out of his home & shed.
James,
If you book a 6 month round the world cruise but die after 2 days when reported how long the cruise would have been, the answer is not 2 days but 6 months.
If Sylvain notified them(Cezus) that after Louis was born he didnt intend to come back to his job for a long time maybe 3 years, the maximum allowed, then it was reported correctly. If he said at least 6 months with an option to keep extending every 6 months it would also still be correct.
Yes Q
8 Nov, 2012 – 4:00 pm I noticed the use of horses in connection to setting up the wolf trap. Also the reference to Le Carre’s Tinker Taylor Spy quoted by someone close to his home. I wouldn’t want to great an emphasis in the finer points of these synchronicities but I do think the choice of place is highly suggestive of planning by those with a honed sense of history, literature and taking pleasure in nuanced word games. We see it time and time again in military and intelligence circles. Choosing names for weapons, ships, battle plans and secret operations for example. A thing is not just a “thing”, an operation is not just an “operation”. They are redolent with deeper meaning and purpose and this is particularly the case with states that are deeply embedded in a religious tradition which sees itself as fulfilling some divine destiny to make good the wrongs of the past and to secure some messianic future. Pragmatic choices are sometimes underpinned by esoteric belief systems that can appear to justify outrageous behaviour that would not otherwise be tolerated. We have witnessed plenty of that in the last decade. Now as to practical application to the case in hand, it is that if the site of the attack was chosen for its etymological connotations, it first rules out lesser mortals and motivations. The second thing it would suggest is that this was was no spur of the moment decision but a meticulously planned one. How could it be otherwise given the timing and location. At least two targets had to be lured to the same location for the same time and given the long access drive, communicated in such a way that the assassins could get in and out at just the right moment. It’s a fair bet that at some time prior there was a “dry run” to see how it played out. I bet the Gendarme didn’t ask the locals about that.
to _P regarding parental leave:
quote:
he application can be made at any time between the end of maternity leave and the child’s third birthday,
His youngest child was born 3(?) months ago? No end of maternity leave by then! His other children were well over 8. So then, no chance for parental leave for him by now. Another false flag by the press. Perhaps he didn’t work for Cezus for 3 years as they wanted to tell us. But not for parental leave. You can see for yourself, the law wouldn’t allow that.
I tell you that he had a “leave” for another reason. What for instance are the possible reasons for “Military Leave” in France?
Having said that SM doesnt need to work for 3 years then he also doesnt need to be trying anything illegal for money either, especially if he is happy with a new child. Unless it wasnt his choice to get involved and he was already on the hook from his previous crimes and being blackmailed into continuing.
From what I have read, special forces units do not make known their presence. They are listed as part of regular military units, but carry out special assignments for the special forces units. Even their co-workers in the regular units are not supposed to know about their other activities.
shelock
that picture shows fracois ringot together with lydia ringot, Mathis’ mother, ex Mrs. mollier, maiden name Sclosa.
http://www.facebook.com/francois.ringot
The same picture was used by Mathis Mollier on his friends page to define francois ringot.
I assume this lot would be familiar with the Haute-Savoie, as they have experience from the Olympics in Albertville:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Gendarmerie_Intervention_Group
Just another thought to add to the pile.
More “55” to add to the pile:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIG_SG_550
paid maternity leave France:
16 weeks (100%) rising to 26 weeks (100%) for third child
That means, Louis’ mother was still in maternity leave => no paternity leave by then possible for Silvain
unpaid paternity leave:
Share of 156 weeks (3 years) with mother
That means, unpaid paternity leave only for a child from the end of maternity leave to the age of 3 would be possible.
(All employees with children under three can ask for parental child-raising leave (congé parental d’éducation), whatever the size of the company they work for. The employees may either stop work or work part time. The application can be made at any time between the end of maternity leave and the child’s third birthday, or after the adoption of a child under 16)
There was no legal way for him to get paternity leave for his youngest son and the other two were way too old.
Btw, the 3 years paternity leave would be unpaid. He must have been very rich if that were true. However, there is no law that would enable him to have had paternity leave for his youngest child as per now, and the other too boys were already too old for him for getting paternity leave.
The “Leave” must have had a different reason. “Special Forces Call?”
What are the possibilities in France for special military reserve personal for being called for duty (military leave)?
Oh, I forgot to mention because I didn’t take it for any kind of importance:
There is an adult “bow & arrow sports guy” also in the friends list of young Mathis Mollier.
@Bluebird
Interesting…
Can you find out which club the “bow & arrow sports guy” belongs to?
Would be funny if it was the same club as the “other” SM…
And whilst on the subject of “modus operandi” when I was reading that French thread earlier, not only was it clear there was a fundamental misunderstanding as to the location of the crime scene lay-by as referred to earlier (surely no one could still be under it now?) but fundamentally wrong about Al Hilli’s car movements and position of the bodies as well. I assume all these emanate from official sources. I can only assume they are to either confuse or to support a predetermined story line. In any event they can only be regarded as perverse. So it is suggested that the very clear skid marks on the south end (RHS as viewed in aerial photos) that appear to travel in a semi-circular fashion, were in fact those of the Al Hilli’s BMW in response to an attack. There is even a graphic to illustrate it! This is quite irrational, in fact IMPOSSIBLE. For it to be correct the BMW would have had to facing into the lay by. Any emergency there fore spin only the rear wheels which would be closer to the road. Notice the skid marks appear to have been made by a four wheel drive as there are simultaneous front AND rear off side tyre marks I would say. It appears the semi circle indicated the vehicle stopped just short of the blood marks on the ground. The semi circle does NOT approximate to the final position of the BMW. There is further confirmation by direction of the front wheels which are in line with the vehicle. However another reason why this official story, including the ludicrous suggestion that Al Hilli’s car struck Mollier is that if the skid and semi-circular trace was Al Hilli’s, the “Action” would have had to happened at the other end of the lay by as he received a bullet wound before he got in the car. Further the only blood stains are next to the parked BMW NOT at the other end where they would have been if the attack started there. Much more likely this was the killer’s vehicle “Go Go Go” and swinging round, possibly striking Mollier in the process. This appears to be an ineffective official attempt to obviate the need for another vehicle to fit a “lone mad killer, probably on a bike” hypothesis. Similarly it appears that they have now decided to firm up the “possible forestry vehicle” to stating that it was such that Martin saw. If so the French police should produce said forestry vehicle and crew to attest to the fact, and explain how they were at the scene at the very time of the shootings, yet saw and heard nothing, and furthermore felt no need to let the police know they were there. Clearly QUITE ABSURD!
Bluebird you cannot assume that Maternity leave is all taken after the birth
BB: now I’m happy again… that fits.
Forget the other one…. (http://copainsdavant.com/p/francois-ringot-4501866)
😉 😉 😉
Did you see what P just postet at 6:21 re Parental leave in France??
straw: I think that the paid maternity leave must be taken immediately after birth. At least this is so in different EU countries. I am not sure about France but I think you must take this after birth. Money is given for the nursing stuff, relaxing from birth, etc.
Another interesting guy on the firends list of young Mathis Mollier:
http://copainsdavant.linternaute.com/membre/1255006/7161676288/alexandre_landre/
Ferret: The bow&arrow guy on his friends list is Dylan Schneider from France. I am not sure whether or not he is alraedy an adult, perhaps he is just 14 or 15 on that picture. I will try to search for his club tomorrow. There must be some notices somewhere.
That is also a quite remakrable facebook friend of young Mathis:
http://www.facebook.com/mathis.mollier/friends#!/knitritahnante.errochdi
At Q
8 Nov, 2012 – 6:57 pm Chevaline = Horse as we all know plus the British polaris association. I immediately thought of perhaps the most famous of horses that enabled a certain Greek to get inside a certain impregnable fortress called Troy?
“Troy” (oz t) is a unit of imperial measure. In the present day it is most commonly used to gauge the weight of precious metals. To maintain purity standards and common measures across time, the troy ounce was retained over the avoirdupois ounce in the weighing and pricing of gold, platinum, silver and gunpowder. Likewise, the grain, identical in both the troy and avoirdupois systems, is still used to measure arrow and ARROWHEAD weights in archery along with projectile (bullet) and propellant (powder) weights in ballistics.
Well I never!