The mainstream media for the most part has moved on. But there are a few more gleanings to be had, of perhaps the most interesting comes from the Daily Mirror, which labels al-Hilli an extremist on the grounds that he was against the war in Iraq, disapproved of the behaviour of Israel and had doubts over 9/11 – which makes a great deal of the population “extremist”. But the Mirror has the only mainstream mention I can find of the possibility that Mossad carried out the killings. Given Mr al-Hilli’s profession, the fact he is a Shia, the fact he had visited Iran, and the fact that Israel heas been assassinating scientists connected to Iran’s nuclear programme, this has to be a possibility. There are of course other possibilities, but to ignore that one is ludicrous.
Which leads me to the argument of Daily Mail crime reporter, Stephen Wright, that the French police should concentrate on the idea that this was a killing by a random Alpine madman or racist bigot. Perfectly possible, of course, and the anti-Muslim killings in Marseille might be as much a precedent as Mossad killings of scientists. But why the lone madman idea should be the preferred investigation, Mr Wright does not explain. What I did find interesting from a man who has visited many crime scenes are his repeated insinuations that the French authorities are not really trying very hard to find who the killers were, for example:
the crime scene would have been sealed off for a minimum of seven to ten days, to allow detailed forensic searches for DNA, fibres, tyre marks and shoe prints to take place.
Nearby bushes and vegetation would have been searched for any discarded food and cigarette butts left by the killer, not to mention the murder weapon.
But from what I saw at the end of last week, no such searches had taken place and potentially vital evidence could have been missed. House to house inquiries in the local area had yet to be completed and police had not made specific public appeals for information about the crime. No reward had been put up for information about the shootings.
Behind the scenes, what other short cuts have been taken? Have police seized data identifying all mobile phones being used in the vicinity of the murders that day?
The idea that the French authorities – who are quite as capable as any other of solving cases – are not really trying very hard is an interesting one.
Which leads me to this part of a remarkable article from the Daily Telegraph, which if true points us back towards a hit squad and discounts the ides that there was only one gun:
Claims that only one gun was used to kill everybody is likely to be disproved by full ballistics test results which are out in October.
While the 25 spent bullet cartridges found at the scene are all of the same kind, they could in fact have come from a number of weapons of the same make.
This throws up the possibility of a well-equipped, highly-trained gang circling the car and then opening fire.
Both children were left alive by the killers, who had clinically pumped bullets into everybody else, including five into Mr Mollier.
Zainab was found staggering around outside the car by Brett Martin, a British former RAF serviceman who cycled by moments after the attack, but he saw nobody except the schoolgirl.
Her sister, Zeena, was found unscathed and hiding in the car eight hours later.
Both sisters are now back in Britain, and are believed to have been reunited at a secret location near London.
There are of course a number of hit squad options, both governmental and private, which might well involve iraqi or Iranian interests – on both of which the mainstream media have been very happy to speculate while almost unanimously ignoring Israel.
But what interests me is why the Daily Telegraph choose, in the face of all the evidence, to minimise the horrific nature of the attack by stating that “Both children were left alive by the killers”? Zainab was not left alive by design, she was shot in the chest and her skull was stove in, which presumably was a pretty serious attempt to kill a seven year-old child. The other girl might very well have succeeded in hiding from the killers under her mother’s skirts, as she hid from the first rescuers, and then for eight hours from the police.
The Telegraph article claims to be informed by sources close to the investigation. So they believe it was a group of people, and feel motivated to absolve those people from child-killing. Now what could the Daily Telegraph be thinking?
We should also mention that Mehdi al Katib has linkedin contacts not only with his project partners Hussein al Hilli, Zaid A. and Hayder A., but also with Deena al Hilli and with Ali al Saffar.
sounds like a family affair to me Bluebird
23 Jul, 2013 – 7:33 pm
9/11
This is the pivotal criminal act of the 21st Century. Yet there has been no criminal investigation! Vital evidence was either destroyed or removed without proper forensic examination. There is absolutely not a shred of doubt that it was an inside job in all respects. Yet such is the power of government and the resistance of the public to doubting it, that the myth of terrorists causing the damage persists. No one can watch this video without fundamentally reassessing the last decade and the United States part in it. I am convinced we are seeing the same phenomenon (in miniature) at Chevaline. Neither is it beyond the realms of possibility that the two events were related.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnbMjAN7Bws
Tim V 22 July 12;27 AM
Interesting connections and though they may not lead to the Al Hilli case, there is some good material you bring up that points to the ruthlessness and willingness to engage in nefartious acts on the part of certain intelligence agencies.
On the JFK matter, there’s a school of thought that points in a direct line to mossad involvement. Possibly in cahoots with the CIA. They each had their very strong reasons to want to get rid of JFK.
The good news about that particular historical incidence is that you will be hard put to find a single American over the age of 15** who actually believes the American government – along with some outside agencies – did not have a hand in the Kennedys’ assassinations. Both of them.
The bad news/ though no one, as in absolutely no one, believes oswald did it on his own, they – the populance turned sheeple – are willing to move on. Fatalism, I guess. A ‘what can we do?” mind-frame. just like the surveillance state.
Which leads into your stated motivations for being and posting on this site. While i can’t say I share in the boredom aspect (I should be so lucky to be a bit bored…) the rest of it mirrors my own. WE couldn’t stop Chevaline and no one will ever tell us who did it or why. But staying here and posting a comment now and then is a form of protest. For justice denied and truth thwarted. “They” will call us conspiracy theorists, just as they called the kennedy truth seekers and the TWA800 doubt raisers, and now the all too obvious assassination of Michael Hastings, as fine and brave reporter, as ever there was. But it’s worth it, I believe. For our own sanity and for keeping a little flame alive somewhere. It is unfortunately all one can do when storming the barricades is not quite an option.
___
** 15 is sort of the middle stage of the dawn of the Age of reason for most humans, speaking of averages. Mine of course came a bit earlier. Or a lot… (What a load to carry! no wonder I strive never to miss a party nowadays…)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=theYFdlQNKE
BB, all very interesting research. I wish though i could see more connections to Chevaline. For some reason I am convinced that if I saw it (the connection), even as a hint, I would know it. Not sure why I have that feeling.
I do believe however that you are doing a bang-up job circling (or should I say, spiraling? there’s more than 2 dimensions here!) the reasons Chevaline happened.
People will say it’s all too complicated – all these connections, especially with Zaid brought into the mix. To which I reply – Chevaline WAS complicated! bring all these different people together, on an isolated mountain road, with hardly a minute to spare and lots of evidence that whatever happened it was NOT blessed by ALL the parties originally involved.
Perhaps Zaid and the gulf club will lead somewhere. OTOH, we must bear in mind that information was really available only for the Al Hillis, Such as it was. It is absolutely unfortunate that we know so little about iqbal, Suhaila, haider and their history. Just like Sylvain.
One idea I had that may be it is not a coincidence that we only ever saw photos of Saad, from among all the victims. If absolutely EVERYTHING was scrubbed from the internet on the other victims and the children continue to be kept out of sight (so we are told), I think there must have been some reason for that. No one would go to such an incredible and thorough effort to “disappear” information and build walls of silence, unless there is a reason for that.
“Privacy”, you say (or is the Poirots and Christies of MZT)? now, now. If iqbal was the victim of a common crime, may be some information will be protected, but absolutely every last shred of every bit? to the point that we don’t even know if she actually lived at Claygate (though we now have FB to assure us that yes, she did, and that a fine woman she was, and he has some good photos in his possession that make him so sad. Not that he would care to share any. “Privacy”, you know….). same with Suhaila. And of course, Sylvain Mollier, the ultimate mystery man.
So keep searching BB> Some day, somehow, you’ll stumble on it. You may have even gotten close already, without realizing it. At the very least we are all learning lots about lots of people and events and history and shenannigans.
Tim V 2:53PM. yes, i know you are no fan of the “extraction” theory (you used “abstraction” BTW, did you notice? was that another Freudian slip? beware, some people around here take great offense at minor spell-offs (my word, that)).
Still, though I won’t convince you it’s a possibility, you must admit we can’t exclude it based on what we know. That by itself is saying something, BTW. That we can’t even be sure whether people were killed that day!
I think the difference between our takes on this matter boils own to weights assigned. I give the ‘extraction” concept more weight probably because I try to work in a space that is separate from motives. Which we all admit we have no clue about. It’s kind of a different exercise – trying to separate the “what” and ‘how” from the the larger ‘why”, heeding only internal consistency. It’s really a common logic exercise (which BTW, is where I also differ from max and his Sudoku puzzle solving approach. I allow both an additional dimension AND try to isolate the “event” from original causation, so that there is at least a fixed starting point).
Also, you should know that, on some level, I consider reality itself to be conspiracy. For the same reasons; the possibility can’t be excluded based on what our senses tell us. We could indeed be all part of a metaverse. I was just thinking the other day i should copyright that idea – Chevaline as clue to our existence. Now, how more self-important can one get? see why I like parties and am never bored (any longer)?
Also Tim V – with regards to your wish for a good investigative reporter. Michael Hastings was one. May be what he was working on was one step too far for the PTB. Could it be that Saad was onto something too? could SM have acted as a would-be “leaker”?
Also, if Chevaline was meant as a ‘warning”, surely every relative, friend and mere reporter out there will get the hint?
Surely, those who were willing to go to such length to perpetrate a really hideous massacre will not stop at bagging a few more victims? especially if the over-riding consideration is that the “mystery” must NOT be “solved”. Kind of like 9/11, or the kennedy assassination, no?
Which is why I follow BB’s research and though i don’t think he hit on it yet, there’s a chance he has gotten closer (not necessarily along the lines he himself highlighted) or will. Should I ever get that funny feeling i get when I know something is there, I may not choose to run off with it. So watch for more circuitousness from my little corner. When i start sounding like one of James’ riddles, you’ll know something is afoot.
James, 3:42 PM You know, the proper response when you see that your arguments failed to convince a target audience is to come back with some aded clarity and/or depth. Not to stomp off in a huff and a puff.
just how many “theories” and “timelines” an “motives’ have been proposed these past many months that many coul not buy into? I am not [yet] buying into BB’s Glaio theories for example, or Lyna’s “nutter” or EM’s “lone shooter”. An only a few buy into the ‘extraction” theory that I insist cannot be rule out, base on evience alone. So what? people, if they are intereste in swaying others, come back with their arguments buttressed an reformulate (or ‘recycled”?).
But to each their own, as they say.
And by all means continue speculating about bullet directions and distances (hey, those are vectors!). MZT is indeed a very good place for these discussions, as several of their commentators have been going over these very issues for quite sometime. I am fully content to have the their experts on the case (and casings).
Sorry, my ‘d’ key is acting up. Syrope I think. Please add in where missing…..
Burhill Group Limited (BGL)
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Company Description: Privately owned by members of the Guinness Family Burhill Group Limited (BGL), formerly Burhill Estates Company Limited, was founded in 1926 to manage the estates of the then Lord Iveagh. Over the years the Company has diversified and now has three divisions: BGL Golf, BGL Leisure and BGL Estates.
@Marlin
Picking up some of the chat on MZT on the car position One of the reasons I am curious about whether Zainab was Chevaline side of the car on the verge as shown in the documentary is because to my mind it increases the possibility that the car was always at the end it was found ,not a scenario I have favoured to date .
My reasoning being that given the speed of events I consider it unlikely that Zainab would cross the layby towards”the one bad man”in the process of shooting everyone which would be the case as she didnt make into the car , to then stagger from in front of the car as seen by BM.
IF she was that side then it would seem more likely to me that Saad lost his grip on her close to the car in its final position and that is where she staggered from .
I have no idea for sure but given the police tape and policemen at the point shown for Zainab on the verge the other side of the towtruck in the bike picture and it being said the BM moved her off the road it would make sense to me that he moved her to the verge .
It would also make sense she was moving away from the carnage not towards it.
No time to offer links I have to go to work .
Tim v
Burhill Group is a privately owned company. Guinness isnt Guinness but they are the families of the Lordship of Moyne and Mosley. Lord Iveagh is Moyne.
I already did present the history and the present of the Moynes and the Mosleys and tgeir right wing (nazi) background, particularly Oswald Mosley and Diana Mitford. Lord Moyne (the grandfather, he was the British Middle East representative) was assassinated in Egypt because of his anti semitic stance versus to be created Israel. He was assassinated by two cyclists who did belong to an Ashkenazi terror/mafia group, the “Stern Gang”.
Besides all that history, they are making too much revenue. Usually they would have to lose money in that kind of business. Fue to logic i cannot understand where their revenue comes from. Certainly it does not come from golf and sports teams. You invest there to lose money and to reduce taxes. Travel agencies? None of them made any revenues in the past 5 years. They lost money.
Consumer services? What kind of consumer services are they doing? They must have found the stone of wisdom for these revenues or they employ Meyer Lansky as their accountant.
Given the rational logic, the Burhill Group looks like a front to me. I did not say “money laundering” but i might think of that.
It seems that marilyn decided to exile me from her blog. I made a comment tonight about NR’s observation earlier (basically agreeing – it was a good comment – see july 23 12:26PM about the car position), alas, in my usual longish style, and she deleted it….Oh well, may be it was too convincing? I will try to reproduce it here later – nothing much new but some more facts worth pointing to as part of periodic summarizing of where we are….
Looks like she didn’t like my “psychologizing” about group dynamics of posters and commenting groups – not enough bonhomie, may be? too dry? well, I am not aware of saying anything particularly mean about any one there (no reason to, really; they all seem upright) though perhaps my preferences for some people’s analytic skills showed. Can’t help it, alas. If however, anyone noticed me making any untoward comment towards any particular individual, let me know and i shall repent pronto.
What is it they say? when you start acquiring adversaries, seemingly out of nowhere, perhaps you are doing something right? shake the box a bit?
So, psychologizing aside, I do wonder about timing. Whatever it is marilyn may object to (no doubt on the advise of some others), was said more than 2 weeks back, before the blog went down for a while (a mystery not yet clarified, or was it?). So, what changed, other than the growing realization that the BMW was always at the location it was found in – perhaps a few feet forward? why should that be so rattling anyways? after all, it’s not like we know for sure that the tracks belonged to the killers’ car, even if we believe it more likely than not?
Actually, now that I think of it, I probably should try and reproduce my comment there (mean marilyn – had to struggle so no w with my ‘d’ key!). Plus i think I finally got the spelling of maneuver right….after all this time….
Well, they have James – at least for now. At least he said adieu politely….
I will continue to read MZT with interest, of course, as long as Marilyn cares to keep the forum open. No reason not to. As i said – have several value added favorites.
Pink 5:51AM – I would like it if Tim V were to address your question first. I get a bit mixed up about things like “Chevaline side” and “verge” (it’s my deficient English).
Will try and take it up later.
Probably unrelated, but it shows the close connections between mafia killers, terrorists and secret services.
Why did i find this?
I was searching the “Guinness family” Moyne and the living members of this family. While a good part of this family died on drugs (particularly heroin) or due to AIDS (others), or they were sexually humiliated in public (Max Mosley) a few of the younger Moyne generation is still alive.
One of them is Daphne Guinness who was married to Greek billionaire Niarchos.
The love of her life is French philosopher Levy.
She has been romantically involved with French TV philosopher Bernard-Henri Lévyfor a number of years, and cuts a lone figure at events.[26] Since 2008, the couple have appeared publicly more often together. In an issue Harper’s Bazaar (USA) dated February 2011, Guinness confirmed to journalist Derek Blasberg: “He is obviously the love of my life.”
In 2003, Lévy wrote an account of his efforts to track the murderer of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl, who had been beheaded by Islamic extremists the previous year. At the time of Pearl’s death, Lévy was visiting Afghanistan as French President Jacques Chirac’s special envoy.[5] He spent the next year in Pakistan,India, Europe and the United States trying to uncover why Pearl’s captors held and executed him. The resulting book, Who Killed Daniel Pearl?, argues it was because Pearl knew too much about the links between Pakistan’s secret service, nuclearscientists and al-Qaeda.
In 2011, he commented in support of his friend of twenty years Dominique Strauss-Kahn when he was arrested on sexual allegations, referring to the allegations as, “absurd.
Assassination threat:
Lévy was one of six prominent Jewish public figures in Europe targeted for assassination by a Belgium-based Islamistmilitant group in 2008. The list included others in France such as Josy Eisenberg. That plot was reportedly foiled after the group’s leader, Abdelkader Belliraj, was arrested based on unrelated murder charges from the 1980s.
Belliraj; Killer, money launderer, smuggler, mafia member, terrorist, 9/11 involved and paid by the Belgian security service.
Informant of the Belgian State Security Service since the 1990s
At some point in the 1990s, Belliraj became an informant for the main Belgianintelligence agency, the Sûreté de l’État, infiltrating criminal organizations, and even having dinner with Osama bin Laden less than two weeks before the September 11 attacks. Belliraj turned over large amounts of information regarding Al Qaeda to Belgian authorities.[10] It has also been alleged that he could have been as well an informant for the CIA and/or for a Moroccan secret service.[11]
Alleged murders in 1988–1989
Belliraj allegedly committed a series ofmurders in 1986–1989, being paid $300 for three of them by Abu Nidal.[4] Some of them were claimed in Beirut by the Soldiers of the Right. In the 1990s, Belliraj allegedly became involved with international criminal and terrorist networks, working as a “money man.”
The Guinness family Moyne (owner of the Burhill GLC)
Barons Moyne (1932)
Walter Edward Guinness, 1st Baron Moyne (1880–1944) assassinated by 2 cyclists belonging to the Jewish terrorist “Stern Gang”.
Bryan Guinness, 2nd Baron Moyne(1905–1992)
Jonathan Bryan Guinness, 3rd Baron Moyne (b. 1930)
The heir apparent is the present holder’s second but eldest surviving son the Hon. Valentine Guinness (b. 1959)
There are some political views quoted from Valentine Guinness’ facebook page to understand his political stance (the quotes are not extremely surprising for me) simply because they confirm the historically known political position of that family.
Can I just say that the current economic meltdown in Euroland caused by the Club Med countries is exactly what all sensible people predicted would eventually happen if the Union Of Euro Socialist Soviet Republics went ahead and launched their ridiculous Monopoly-style currency.
As Colin Firth has all the charisma of a dead mackerel and can’t act his way out of a paper bag, I guess it’s not surprising that he is supporting the Lib Dems.
I’ve worked out what’s wrong with President Obama. He has no charm and no nuance, he sees everything in black and white terms, and he is a do-nothing hot-air merchant. He has the charisma of a dead mackerel and smothers every utterance with fake gravitas.. At least George Bush had a sense of humour.
I’ve sent a donation to the Swedish government to help them with their case against Julian Assange. He is a repulsive hypocrite and an arrogant megalomaniac. His methods are profoundly hypocritical and anti-democratic. How dare this loser Aussie undermine our governments because of his childish grudge against the USA?
Julian Assange is a egomaniac hypocrite with a vicious anti-Western left-wing agenda. If this albino Aussie geek is so clever and cares about the world so much, where are the Chinese leaks? Where are the Russian leaks and Iranian leaks? His “celebrity” supporters are just pathetic, deluded and stupid.
India’s nuclear weapons are pointed at Pakistan. It is my opinion that you can’t have enough nuclear weapons pointed directly at Pakistan. If we had hypothecated taxes in this country I’d ask that mine be devoted towards high-yield airburst nuclear weapons targeted upon Islamabad, before we pay the wages of British nurses, teachers and those vital and talented people who work at Ofcom.” Howzat, Imran!!!!
@ Marlin 8.07 am
Is it significant that both you and I who believe that extraction is a possibility but both of us still have open minds cannot post onto MZT.
Does this suggest that the PTB pull her strings and it is the PTB that dont want any further conversation about extraction.
I have never sworn on this thread, I believe I am polite to everyone else so I can only believe that Marilyn was offended by or maybe scared by such an idea that the general consensus is that Saad Al-Hilli (and/or) Sylvain Mollier are still alive.
Thank you Marilyn but I believe you have made this scenario much more likely.
FB said that Saad had a liking for F1, I seem to remember that the Al-Hilli’s route to Annecy may have gone thru Nancy, that would also be the chosen route if he had gone to the Belgian Grand Prix on 2nd September 2012 and won by Jensen Button. I wouldnt have thought that this would have been likely with 2 girls of that age but seeing as there are a couple of nights missing on the route from Calais to Annecy that is a possibility.
I like F1 and though having never been to a GP, one at Spa would be difficult to resist if I was ever in the area at the right time.
Marlin
RE Scrubber of Internet trail of the victims
How long would that take for 4 adults so that none of us found any missing gems in the days afterwards and early on there were enormous numbers reading this forum alone.
Did this SCRUBBING start from the moment the phone call was made or as soon as all the ‘troops’ were activated or had this been happening in the days leading up to the shootings?
Bluebird
24 Jul, 2013 – 9:49 am if you want the job as my Research Assistant, you’ve got it LOL. Fascinating stuff you uncover which only confirms the “hyphaeic” (I may have invented an adjective there!) nature of this story, that just keeps giving. Like you I believe, these one step remove links with espionage, violence and Middle East CANNOT be co-incidental.
If those are the quoted opinions of Valentine Guinness, the fifty four year old heir to the family fortunes, to say he was “right wing” and “strident” would appear to be an understatement. If any wealthy person was ever tempted to support political movements, either public or covert, this gentleman would surely be a likely candidate.
In one step you have cleverly established a link to the prominent French philosopher Bernard-Henri Lévy, and in two to the spy and assassin Abdelkader Belliraj, who tried to kill him. That’s not bad going!
Levy, referred to in France as “BHL”, was one of the “New Philosophes” that emerged after the heady days of the ’68 student riots that nearly brought down de Gaule. His position is interesting. He has a wealthy Algerian Jewish background. He has taken an outspoken stance against Marxism AND totalitarian regimes including Gadhaffi and Assad and perhaps predictably supported calls for intervention in both. He took a similar line in the case of Bosnia and has supported dissenters in Iran. However he appears to be generally supportive of Israel and the approach of its armed forces, which may appear to some to be somewhat inconsistent.
His most recent position is reflected in his 2006 “MANIFESTO: Together facing the new totalitarianism”, broadly against the new wave of Muslim fundamentalism and his 2008 book “Left in Dark Times: A Stand Against the New Barbarism” on broadly the same theme.
The fact that the said Abdelkader Belliraj was out to kill him, rather confirms his pro-zionist stance, although with at least Belgian SIS connections, it is anybody’s guess who he was actually working for. Levy himself pinned it on the Pakistan, but there again the connections between it and US/British intelligence, it would be a brave person to say. Despite being a close associate of Sarkosy, he has also backed the leading socialist Strausse Kahn.
Meanwhile the unsavoury Abdelkader Belliraj was involved in the 2000 Luxembourg Brinks 17 million Euro robbery following which he apparently laundered 2500000 in Morocco and elsewhere and ended up with “nothing” but a few cars. His recorded targets in the late 80’s appear to be prominent Jews or Muslims who opposed the Iranian leadership from which his paymasters may be assumed. Conveniently from the “early 90’s he works for Belgian “Sûreté de l’État” and possibly CIA to penetrate terrorist cells. His interrogation and subsequent imprisonment in Morocco (he had earlier “escaped” from his Luxembourg prison in 2003) means that his crimes in Europe cannot be prosecuted, nor conveniently perhaps the relationship with secret agencies established. As you say, incredibly only two weeks before 9/11 he was dining with Osama Bin Laden himself!
As regards Daniel Pearl the Jewish journalist beheaded in 2002 by Pakistan extremists, further “muddy water” is revealed. They claimed he was an American spy. Levy claims he was killed for knowing too much about Pakistan’s nuclear proliferation principally to Iran. Levy’s planned assassination appears to be a continuation of that. Significantly the mastermind of the kidnapping, Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh, surrendered to a former ISI officer, Brig. Ijaz Shah, who concealed Sheikh’s whereabouts from the Karachi police for a week, suggesting SIS complicity. Then to compound the intrigue in his book “In the Line of Fire”, then-President of Pakistan Pervez Musharraf stated that Sheikh was an agent of MI6, who at some point became a double agent.
So who is killing who? A question that re-emerges at Chevaline.
SOURCE FOR FACTS INCLUDED IN THIS SUMMARY: WIKIPEDIA.
Tim v
Excellent summary. This reads like a spy novel but in fact this is reality.
Today it is so hard to say who is killing whom and why. Criminals, mafia, money launderers, bankers, drug and weapon smugglers, terrorists, private security personel, private mercenaries and finally most of the state secret services are mixing up in what they are doing, probably often deliberately threatening or even killing their own people as there is a mixture of interests. I believe that this is an excellent story to understand the heavy mixture of interests.
We had learnt that there are the good vs the bad, like a black/white difference. It isnt. Neither tge good nor the bad are always party of the good or the bad. They do and act where there is money and where there is ideology.
A liberal british SIS branch would rather work with liberal thinking Iraqis and Syrians than with conservative SIS branches in London. They might even kill each other within SIS. Perhaps not directly but by using paid killers. Then they let police do their investigation work but they look like idiots because their work is being suppressed by higher government powers.
Are we getting closer to the Chevaline motives? Yes, we do!
Marlin
24 Jul, 2013 – 8:07 am I am sorry to hear you have fallen foul of the MZT axe. It purports to uphold the principle of the “open internet” but clearly doesn’t. It purports to be seeking the truth in relation to this dastardly incident. Clearly that too is a lie. Its leading contributors are blind to the facts, insofar as we are in possession of them, and deaf to reasoned argument.
I was regarded as an unwanted interloper from the first, because I dared to challenge the accepted orthodoxy that basically supported an unsustainable official account. Having it appeared, undermined a couple of official interpretations relating to the time of that first call and the impossibility of Al Hilli causing those tyre marks, and converting a couple of regular contributors to my view, I was obviously “persona non grata”. I did not expect however the site to close down completely as a result!
I may be over-egging the mix there, but I can’t help thinking it caused a major soul-searching under the watchful gaze of French DGSE. For two important planks to be undermined might well be taken seriously, particularly if it was crucial to a particular French interpretation to rule out certain constituents.
By this I mean if neither PD/B or WBM made that first call, who did? If SAH could not have made those tyre tracks, who did? For some reason or other the French were anxious to prove a disconnect between murder and SUV, be it a forestry vehicle or any other. That tells a lot but sadly not enough to tell us who was actually driving it!
Of course these were only two of many inconsistencies and frankly untenable claims and interpretations by the French police that raises a huge question mark as to either their competence or veracity. Someone on the French side must believe they have an overwhelming need to do so but rather like the water butt caught in a western shoot-out, their case no longer holds water. How will they now respond? Will they continue trying to plug the gaps or get a new water butt?
Pink
24 Jul, 2013 – 5:51 am you raise again the issue of Zainab and her location. Apparently there has been more discussion on MZT about the location of the shooter(s) and victims. I have covered this ground before but with Marlin’s request in mind, these are a few thoughts you may find interesting.
As we keep saying, with the almost unprecedented secrecy surrounding this case we have to make do with scraps, all of which have passed through various degrees of “filtration” or editing. So what have we got to base OUR reconstruction on?
First and foremost the early (next day) aeriel photographs which we take to be un-doctored and accurate.
Then we have the mass of further photographs and video similarly reliable.
Media reconstructions highly unreliable except insofar they represent what the the French authorities, on whose briefings they were based, wanted us to think.
Newspaper and other newspaper reports either first or second handedly conveying witness statements, police opinion, background research and links to others connected to family and enquiry. These vary in reliability, immediacy and relevance.
The statements and televised interviews of WBM and PD/B elements of which may be open to question either for accuracy or comprehensiveness given the fact in certain respects their stories have evolved or contradict one another or other evidence.
We have heard virtually nothing from the British side as to their enquiries. We have heard virtually nothing from early responders, medical or social staff, or from immediate family. There has been an absence of any statement of responsibility as might be expected if this was terrorist activity. There has been no evidence or suggestion of theft as a motive. The mad local killer theory has been so discredited that even EM has now abandoned it.
This leaves only State organised assassination as a credible option – the one explanation studiously avoided by our unfortunate Public Prosecutor. Not only so, but multiple indicators reinforce that view. We do not know who or why but we can conclude with some certainty that a lot of planning must have gone into it to achieve the result it did with such uncompromising brutal efficiency and “success”, effectively leaving no trace and escaping with impunity despite the best concerted efforts of not one but two states acting independently and together, yet giving every impression of hiding the identity of the perpetrators.
Taking up Marlin’s point about confusion I will preface my remarks by saying I will use “left” and “right” as viewed from the West or roughly the overview photograph. These correlate to “down” and “up” or “north” and “south” accordingly. The former is where SAH’s BMW was photographed, the latter where the tyre marks and information sign are located.
For Zainab’s location we have to rely principally on WBM’s account which we have noted is not wholly reliable. However he says he saw her “staggering” as he cycled up which would locate her on or near the road though where precisely left or right we cannot say.
By the time he gets to her she is “in front of the car” he says, which is the justification he says for moving her to a safer one, though where this was we cannot say. However PD in his account finds her in front of the car still when he arrives.
Neither precisely define their terms although they differ somewhat in their description: WBM says she was covered in blood; PD says the opposite. This is significant because we have obvious blood stains on the ground. If she was bleeding, these may be indicative of her resting place. If she wasn’t, they would only denote SM’s recumbent position.
What is beyond doubt that must be SM’s blood on the ground and therefore where he was shot and fell. As soon as you factor in the lab’s report that his blood was on both SAH and Zainab they HAD to be in the same location when the shots were fired even though EM for some reason argued against it.
Those circular tracks CANNOT be SAH’s car by virtue of tyre and track width, plus geometry, timing and indications of 4×4 which SAH’s car was not. It is confirmed by the tyre marks and position of SAH’s car. He obviously had to get back to his car whilst under attack and managed only to reverse in a straight line before the fatal shots to his head.
So putting this altogether, plus the self evident bullet damage that can be seen on the car, we can conclude with a degree of certainty that all three were outside together to the right of the car when the main attack came from the right, possible associated with a 4×4 sweeping down from the right.
Shots were obviously fired through the drivers door. There are two options: the shooter coming around the front of the car; or (more likely I think) a second shooter approaching from the lower left side in a pincer movement. However if there was only one gun and gunman, this is clearly ruled out and the former would have to be the case.
Shooting from both sides in opposite directions is not without its dangers obviously, so if this did happen they would have to be competent and practised. I rather lean towards a slight sequencing. The shooter from the right, possibly the taking out SM and shooting through the RHS of the car with another advancing gunman from the left (the”motorcyclist”?)forcing SAH to reverse, who approaches the driver’s door and shoots through the driver’s window.
So I make it THREE involved. Driver of 4×4, plus gunman passenger, plus gunman motor-cylist.
Here is a recap of the comment I made on MZT that has now been scubbed:
It was a response to NR @23:03:26
NR posited that the likelihood was that the BMW as seen in the photos was vpretty much at each original position, perhaps a few feet ahead of its final resting place due to the reverse. The key points raised by NR(paraphrased by myself) were:
1, The car’s straight position – not so easy after a speedy reverse move.
2. The car wheels’ straight position – anyone who did a reverse move forward or backwards knows that is unlikely. To get the straight parallel to the car’s axis position requires adjustment – again, there would likely be no time for that, especially under fire.
3. The position of the car does not match the tracks arc trajectory – even after correcting for photo perspective.
note that these elements do not even include the width of the track marks, tand the other arguments used by Tim V and others before.
My comment was to the fact that I raised the tracks arc earlier in part 9 of MZT, asking whether anyone has looked at the geometry. My original question was to the fact that just by looking at the tangent – there’s approximately 30 degree deviation between the arcs orientation and the BMW final location. That translates to a substantial spatial deviation between the arc’s trajectory and the BMW’s.
that question was however asked during the long back and forth over the width of the tyre marks, precipitated by Tim V and may have gone un-noticed. However, I brought it up again somewhere in part 10, addressing this time, I think, one of Tim V’s final comments about the SUV’s motion. Again the comment about the displacement between the arc and the BMW elicited no response from the regulars.
In yesterday’s deleted response I also pointed out how very unlikely it was that SAH would speedily reverse, then somewhere at mid-point make a trajectory correction, to back straight into the final position. Yes, it’s possible, especially if he was trying to pick up Zainab – who may or may not be held as hostage by the gunman, but the scenario is highly improbable, especially if already under fire. This also calls for a relatively long pause in the sequence of shots, something we have no corroboration for.
I therefore took it for granted that another car, a 4×4 made those tyre marks, though that still left the following unknowns:
A. It may not have been the killers’ car but some other car before or after.
others in the past pointed to the likelihood that it was a recent track, due to the texture of the ground and the freshness of the tracks. therefore indeed, there it is more likely than not to have been the killers’ car. Which is perhaps why that belated call has gone out for the BMW x5
B. We don’t know when the car arrived. It might have been there before SAH arrived, or it might have arrived later, with the killings commencing shortly thereafter.
in any case, if it is the killers’ car, the actual shooter may have been waiting in the woods anticipating Mollier’s arrival, with the car showing up during, or just before the course of events. All we have are statements attributed to Zainab, which were never complete, or reinforced by anything or anyone else. It is possible that at first she saw “only one bad man” who started shooting as she, Saad and Mollier were standing together, hitting SM first and causing a mad dash by saad towards his car, with zainab unable to follow, having been hit by a bullet. If the SUV arrived right as the shooting started, slid into the upper left parking space then immediately making the maneuver designed to block the BMW, then by that time, zainab would not be in a position to recall much about another car. In fact, it is highly unlikely for a 7 year old to have great recollection of events in which everything happens so fast.
In my comment I did note the fact that those statements by Zainab, were provided by EM, to bolster his contention, cf. “one bad man” = “lone nutter”. Also, the” shooting started as soon as they arrived” supposed statement by Zainab supports the “no other car” scenario touted by EM. Given the articulation between zainab’s attributed statement and EM’s favorite scenario at the time we can only give limited credence to those statements.
In any case, once zainab was whisked away back to the UK, no further statements issued by her were disclosed to the public. All we know is that EM was frustrated in his attempts to get the kind of interviews he wanted with the children, to the point of complaining about that.
C. The specifics of the maneuver by the SUV, if it was the killers’, following the arched skid marks.
The maneuver may have been intended to block the escape route forward by the BMW, in the process hitting Mollier who may be on the ground by then in the plexus and pushing him towards the BMW. it would also involve an abrupt braking action though we have no conclusive evidence for such of to the front side of the BMW.
The particular blow to Mollier was mentioned by Lynda, who may have seen it mentioned somewhere. There were vague allusions to Mollier being hit by a car from the french police but I didn’t happen to catch the details as provided by Lynda, and I know that Tim V didn’t either.
The upshot is that we know for sure that the tracks in the parking lot WERE NOT made by the BMW.
We don’t know for sure they were made by the killers’ car, but if they were, we are talking about a team of at least two, virtually by definition – a driver and a shooter. the shooter could have been originally the SUV’s passenger but at one point was on foot, though we don’t know when exactly – from the very beginning, firing the first shot from the car then getting out, or getting out at some point later in the sequence.. It is simply too unlikely for someone to be able to be able to shoot while maneuvering a car rapidly as no one could be that “professional”. It is also not likely that a killer who is a driver would shoot from a car, then drive in a circle, then get out and walk to the BMW to finish the job, all while SAH is doing his darnest to get the hell out. It is possible of course, but unlikely.
The killers’ team, while a minimum of 2, could have also had additional back-up by the motorcyclist who could very well be the one moving in to block the BMW.
___
PS my original comment was shorter and less verbose than this but this was the gist of it. Alas, I didn’t save the original, so this is a poor replica.
Just a few follow-up notes:
I am not sure why Marilyn wanted to actually delete my comment, given that there was nothing in it other than support for NR’s comment plus a few pointers about the “knowns’ and the “unknowns”, not much different than I- and many others – including regulars, offered before. the only semi-original part was the manner in which I chose to highlight the “knowns”, the implications, and the “unknowns”, and was offered just for her blog rather than reproducing somfrom somewhere else, as required by her own policy. She could have just requested that I not post there any longer due to “misbehavioral “mocking” actions on another blog (this one), leaving the comment itself to stand.
My conclusions:
1. She may have just now read my “internet group dynamics” comments made 2 weeks ago and saw more ill-intent in them than intended. It’s possible that some people are more sensitive than others and readily given to bristling, seeing”snide” when it’s really just an “inside joke’ about the meta-dynamics that develops among commenter groups on the internet**.
2. Alternatively, there was something in the comment itself that raised ire and required deletion. I can’t think what that could be other than the mention of the specific injury to Mollier, on which i was resting on Lynda’s comment also about couple weeks ago, just before MZT went on a hiatus. The allusion to the “team of two” was made several times before and by quite a few others.
3. the only other possibility is that there is a need to control the group dynamics on the blog, and posters such as Tim V and myself are considered a disruption to the preferred flow. I did notice, that Lynda has just brought up the “glass on the side of the signpost’ that “may match” the BMW window. Never noticed that detail stated anywhere before. has anyone else?
Also, I noticed that max has re-calculated the tracks’ width and now is back to believing they ‘could have’ been the BMW’s. A major reversal in position. I found the argument not very convincing on the merits, that before being undermined by other facts to do with RWD vs FWD, which is Tim V’s area of expertise. Now, personally I see no reason to engage ad infinitum on this issue, since the preponderance of evidence points to it NOT BEING the BMW’s tracks.
That brings up the question Tim V posted above: why is it so important that there NOT BE a SUV at the Martinet? why argue and re-argue the point, when it seems pretty clear that (1) at one time, there was such a SUV there, and (2) even if there was there is no proof it was the killers”?
Group dynamics aside, I do find it odd when individuals seem so determined to keep the narrative centered around one particular interpretation, no matter how many facts point away from it. The odd thing are not the debates about the facts of the case – that’s par for the course, but the obvious determination. I have seen that plenty in real life – for example – about archaeological digs, eg, in Jerusalem, where narratives rule and every artefact unearthed can potentially undermine or bolster a long held narrative.
Is this what Chevaline is all about – a determined effort to keep a narrative to within fairely narrow parameters? if so, why is it so important***?
____
** an aside on meta-dynamics of internet blogs – I once saw the most vicious fights break out among followers of the Meerkat Manor series (ran on Animal planets channel in the US), where most posters must have been quite young. Some must have so anthropomorphized the Meerkats that they’d take extreme exceptions to anyone impugning the ‘character” and/or behavior of one of those barely 2-foot creatures. Speaking of projection! posters were outright banned from the forum for daring to support one particularly aggressive top female Meerkat (and they have to be to stay on top and keep the troops in line. Tough life for wild meerkats.). yes, i know – an obvious question is how do I know, but that’s another story.
*** BB is on that particular mission, I know. Tim V too. then there’s Straw44berry’s comment regarding the “extraction” scenario. I must say that fits, at least in so far as keeping control of the “narrative”.
Tim V 5:29PM
Can you check out Max’s new calculation of the tyre tracks width? I know it’s a bit laborious and perhaps looks pointless to you, having gone over this ground several times over. But I do wonder where he is coming from.
the ‘why again” I leave for another discussion. Obviously people don’t want to let this issue rest.
Also, have you or anyone else have seen allusions to ‘window glass” on the far side of the martinet in any of the previous accounts we have seen? Lynda just brought it up, out of the blue, may be something said in some french video account? Anyways, I don’t recall having seen anything on this before., but little details could well have gone un-noticed in the dust storms kicked up.
Sorry for the added homework…..
@ Tim and Marlin
Thankyou Tim for helping out with directions I tend to think of it as uphill towards barrier and downhill towards Chevaline .
I know that you see a wider conspiracy and I follow your thinking and also keep an eye on what everyone else has to say .
I totally accept that this whole case from start to finish has been handled in a very strange fashion and that we are basing everything on dodgy facts so I just keep refining bits as I go.
I am not going to try and work out what the wider conspiracy might be because it is not anything I know about, I come across all sorts of things that might or might not be related I do not have enough knowledge to judge .
So I stay rooted in the lay-by still trying to make sense to my satisfaction as to what happened there and relying on what is available in all its muddled or doctored forms.
Going back to my point about Zainab’s position when we saw the recent documentary which has now gone I pointed out that the animation at one point showed Zainab on the grass verge Chevaline side of the vehicle which could be plain wrong but if it was right it would make sense to me that the car may not have been at the sign end .
My reasoning being that if Saad lost her hand at the sign end which would leave her that end when he reversed then she would have to have crossed the layby to the front of the car TOWARDS the killer to be in a position to be staggering from in front of the car towards the road which is what BM saw.
Going back to the animation of her being Chevaline side that would make more sense, if Saad lost her hand near the car which was parked forward of where it was found and she staggered away from the car downhill moving AWAY from the carnage.
So Zainab recovers her feet moves from car towards road and is spotted by BM,she continues moving in his direction and collapses he stops ,it was said he moved her away from the road to the side i.e the grass verge .
On Max’s bike picture it shows some crime scene tape and policemen downhill of the tow truck in roughly the position the documentary showed Zainab ,which is further away from the car then I would have expected BM to have moved her so if that animation happens to be true it would suggest to me that the car was not at the sign end.
To counter that Max thinks the wheelbase of the tracks could be the BMW and we also have blood spatter of SM on SAH so its swings and roundabouts.
I just see the documentary animation as being more likely than Zainab crossing towards the killer.
I am not saying this is a fact I just see it as more plausible.
The bike picture: Bike at the sign end and on the other side of the tow truck in front of it some crime scene tape on the verge.
Could this be where Zainab staggered to from in front of the car as BM was cycling towards her.
http://deadzone61.wordpress.com/2013/07/20/tck-the-bike/
Straw44berry 11:54 Am and also 12:51 PM
That is really strange is you too were banned from MZT, as I have never seen you making an untoward or off-color comment anywhere. Neither have you been guilty of tendenciousness or ‘snideness’ of which I stand accused (I only admit to smidgens of “sarcasm”! and only when I can’t help it due to Orwellian provocation. And i always say sorry! and sometimes even mean it…). I didn’t realize you couldn’t comment on MZT.
You may be on to something there – both of your comments. If everything was scrubbed so thoroughly from the internet (by no means an easy task, as Bluebird has pointed out) it just could not have been done within a couple of days. There’s always something left somewhere in an archive. there are always some funky, not so well known social networks. And yes, there were lots of people here early on that went digging in no time. Speakers of multiple languages too, including Arabic. yet, no one has ever found ANY information on SM or Iqbal for example, other than the very basic information we were told.
An aside: i WAS surprised to find an allusion in lars’ summary to Suhaila having a PhD in Biology from a london University. I did not see that anywhere before and was not sure where he got the information from. this bit of information kind of came and went in a hurry.
My guess is that it would take a professional team working over a period of time – minimum 1-2 weeks – and fluent in several languages to have accomplished the task. just think of the languages – English, French, Swedish, Arabic. And the countries: UK, Sweden, US, France, Switzerland, Dubai, Iraq, lebanon, Iran. They all have their own web sites and chatrooms. yet, all gone? so completely? I am especially astounded by the lack of educational records as that requires co-operation from the Institutes – Iqbal and Suhaila’s degrees for example. A hidden PhD in Biology? never heard of such a thing. Children’s school records? Saad;s employment? all gone from linkedin in a jiffy.
And I am with you on this issue: only an “extraction” or a serious multi-agency conspiracy to commit assassination would justify both the extreme secrecy and the enormous efforts to make some cover-up stick. the trouble with the assassination scenario is that no matter how grievous the matters that led to it, the cover-up is just too obviously fraying around the edges. For example, I can’t believe the agencies involved could not have done better to make the timings stick – why all the complications of the 15:48 phone call and the 15:15PM photo-shoot? complications that keep two blogs busy? what is it about the SUV that it must be made “not to be”? after all, as I noted above, whether or not there was an SUV at the scene, there is no proof it was the killers, which is just a supposition, no?
And what’s the deal with the children anyways?
Or the poor Zeena hidden for 8 hours? anyone actually believes that? may be just those 20 or so souls perched forlorn and hallucinating on a Tibetan wind-swept plateau, or stuck deep in the Amazon forest for the lo so many years.
Ads many good reasons as Tim V has given me to abandon the “abstraction” (as he calls it) scenario, I just can’t. there are facts of the “Case Chevaline” that fit this one better than any other one. And though seemingly far-fetched and ‘complicated”, simplicity has not been the operating rule for any other scenario, either.