The mainstream media for the most part has moved on. But there are a few more gleanings to be had, of perhaps the most interesting comes from the Daily Mirror, which labels al-Hilli an extremist on the grounds that he was against the war in Iraq, disapproved of the behaviour of Israel and had doubts over 9/11 – which makes a great deal of the population “extremist”. But the Mirror has the only mainstream mention I can find of the possibility that Mossad carried out the killings. Given Mr al-Hilli’s profession, the fact he is a Shia, the fact he had visited Iran, and the fact that Israel heas been assassinating scientists connected to Iran’s nuclear programme, this has to be a possibility. There are of course other possibilities, but to ignore that one is ludicrous.
Which leads me to the argument of Daily Mail crime reporter, Stephen Wright, that the French police should concentrate on the idea that this was a killing by a random Alpine madman or racist bigot. Perfectly possible, of course, and the anti-Muslim killings in Marseille might be as much a precedent as Mossad killings of scientists. But why the lone madman idea should be the preferred investigation, Mr Wright does not explain. What I did find interesting from a man who has visited many crime scenes are his repeated insinuations that the French authorities are not really trying very hard to find who the killers were, for example:
the crime scene would have been sealed off for a minimum of seven to ten days, to allow detailed forensic searches for DNA, fibres, tyre marks and shoe prints to take place.
Nearby bushes and vegetation would have been searched for any discarded food and cigarette butts left by the killer, not to mention the murder weapon.
But from what I saw at the end of last week, no such searches had taken place and potentially vital evidence could have been missed. House to house inquiries in the local area had yet to be completed and police had not made specific public appeals for information about the crime. No reward had been put up for information about the shootings.
Behind the scenes, what other short cuts have been taken? Have police seized data identifying all mobile phones being used in the vicinity of the murders that day?
The idea that the French authorities – who are quite as capable as any other of solving cases – are not really trying very hard is an interesting one.
Which leads me to this part of a remarkable article from the Daily Telegraph, which if true points us back towards a hit squad and discounts the ides that there was only one gun:
Claims that only one gun was used to kill everybody is likely to be disproved by full ballistics test results which are out in October.
While the 25 spent bullet cartridges found at the scene are all of the same kind, they could in fact have come from a number of weapons of the same make.
This throws up the possibility of a well-equipped, highly-trained gang circling the car and then opening fire.
Both children were left alive by the killers, who had clinically pumped bullets into everybody else, including five into Mr Mollier.
Zainab was found staggering around outside the car by Brett Martin, a British former RAF serviceman who cycled by moments after the attack, but he saw nobody except the schoolgirl.
Her sister, Zeena, was found unscathed and hiding in the car eight hours later.
Both sisters are now back in Britain, and are believed to have been reunited at a secret location near London.
There are of course a number of hit squad options, both governmental and private, which might well involve iraqi or Iranian interests – on both of which the mainstream media have been very happy to speculate while almost unanimously ignoring Israel.
But what interests me is why the Daily Telegraph choose, in the face of all the evidence, to minimise the horrific nature of the attack by stating that “Both children were left alive by the killers”? Zainab was not left alive by design, she was shot in the chest and her skull was stove in, which presumably was a pretty serious attempt to kill a seven year-old child. The other girl might very well have succeeded in hiding from the killers under her mother’s skirts, as she hid from the first rescuers, and then for eight hours from the police.
The Telegraph article claims to be informed by sources close to the investigation. So they believe it was a group of people, and feel motivated to absolve those people from child-killing. Now what could the Daily Telegraph be thinking?
Tim V, Mochyn69:
There are far too many efforts to divert and distract from the state agency scenario for me to believe it anything other than likely. the answers can usually be surmised from those directions from which we are diverted. And one cannot deny that there have been major efforts to divert – not only by the French police, but also from the UK silence and its strangely protective behavior, as well as the continuing emphasis on diversions on the nets, including by sites such as MZT.
So I am obviously in agreement here with Tim V and have been from the start. Why no finger pointing? I think that’s answered rather easily – two reasons i can see:
1. because the responsible agency has a strong sway on both France and UK politically, so much so that it cannot possibly be cast as under any suspicion whatsoever
2. whatever happened in Chevaline, and you all know I believe there was a double cross in seeting up the meeting, would bring some operation to light that must remain under wraps.
One of my theories was that Chevaline could have been part of a ‘sting’ operation, presumably run by the british – who counted on some french assistance. the idea was to catch whatever a third party there was which was expected to be there for some transaction. SAH may have been there as translator/verifier for example. However, that third agency was infiltrated or was a front all along, so instead, a fourth agency showed up determined to bust the whole thing, sting or not. Iran for example could be the “third” agency and “Mossad/CIA” the fourth.
naturally, if it was CIA related agency – or a mossad -or both in cahoots, UK’s hands would be tied. Among others, it would be exposed as carrying on – INDEPENDENTLY – on its own stings. Not allowed, of course – so the price is silence. As for france – that’s easy. France’s intelligence agencies are infiltrated through and through. How that was done I don’t know but Bluebird’s research on Gladio could contain part of the story. It is possible they were on to SM all along and were the ones who passed the information to that 4th agency. In which case, they would be mum as a mummy, won’t they?
Tim V and I have often speculated that whoever was involved from the UK side, the one running WBM, is extremely displeased with whatever did take place. and periodically they let their displeasure show.Like with the WBM interview and the news about a BMW X5 being sought – which the french just had to echo.
Yes, this sounds complicated. But pray do tell – is any theory of any crime less complicated? if we were to postulate some “mafia” involvement – is that any simpler than cia/mossad (take yoiur pick)? and if it’s a lone mad gunman – is there any end to the complications that ensue/
Finally, just for the record – the extraction scenario – of some or all should not and cannot be eliminated. It too is complicated, yet, even as it makes some items more complex, it makes others a heck of a lot simpler. And that is why it cannot be thrown out no matter how much some can’t being themselves to “believe” it.
In sifting through various scenarios offered by people over time – and 10’s were offered – personally i try to get “belief’ out of the equation, as best I can. In the absence of facts, I do try and use my own “smell tests” developed over years of pattern detection experience, to guide the ‘weight’ i give to any one scenario. The “Too Complicated” filter is just one of many. “Self Consistency” gets usually higher place value, because humans CAN do incredibly complicated things, if they have their minds set on it. The other filter I have is just that – trying to stay within the “human” envelope. otherwise, it goes too far into the science fiction territory. that’s why, according to my criteria – trying as best i can to follow other people’s reasonings – the “lone gunman”, mad or otherwise, pops ups THE LEAST LIKELY scenario. Any way one looks at it – operationally, motivationally, logistically, psychologically and politically (cf, the post-crime behavior of the authorities) it thoroughly fails on the ‘consistency” litmus tests. Which is something that’s totally obvious to people here, on both intuitive and rational reasoning level. No wonder we resort to a certain sarcasm – a natural response when reason meets unreason.
S
Bleb 7:17PM – take into account not only Zaid’s arrest but the fact that he was released on bail. That arrest may have been done in response to continual pressure from the French to question Zaid, unimpeded. The fact that he was placed “under suspicion” means that he is entitled to use a lawyer in any discussion whatsoever, and also allows him to remain silent, should he so choose.
We, of course, do not know what the british authorities think. Whether they believe there was a criminal mafia involvement or a mafia-like state agency. All we know is that they seem hell-bent to protect bot Zaid and the girls from the French investigators, and not just from the public. if the brits are thinking “mafia” then it sure is interesting how little they seem to trust the french, isn’t it? do they believe EM et al are in cahoots with criminal elements? or that their police force is too “infiltrated” to trust? now, that WOULD BE shocking – kind of. A bit more so than potential involvement by another powerful state agency that is suspected of having a hand in the pie.
BTW, Bleb, if Fera were a student exercise, what grade do you think he should get for the assignment?
Marlin
Rashid says in his curriculum that his most recent jobs are deliberately posted on top. That meaning then his Egypt Telecom job was most recently while the surveillance job must have been perhaps 2007-2010. That would very well fit with Iran. Once again: Egypt is NO Middle East country and never was.
Some sidenote, probably off topic:
If i am not completely wrong, then ” fat bastard” is the great grandson of Sir Norval Watson Helme, the Grandmaster of the Lancashire Freemasonry.
Bluebird, the web side for Rashid that you got this CV off is way out of date. If you look at the photos and other information. I think he stopped updating it at some point, but i wasn’t sure when. That’s why I couldn’t assign a date to the that assignment. better err on the side of uncertainty than erroneous uncertainty.
That being said, Rashid may still be working with Narus – in the UK office.
As for Egypt, yes i know it’s not nominally a Middle eastern country but that’s kind of how it is thought of by people who may not be too precise with their geography. ie, it’s “generically” Middle east, even though not geographically. like – it’s in “that part” of the world. That’s certainly how the vast majority of not so knoweledgable people in the US would refer to it. Now, how would Rashid himself, I don’t know. It’s just that i thought that since he did one job for them in the telecommunications area, could have done another. He was obviously there.
Do you have a convincing alternative Mochyn69
27 Jul, 2013 – 3:19 pm?
@Marlin – now you be nice to Fera, I think you and Tim are perhaps putting off a genuine poster.
bb 9.06 that FB FB (!) ref https://www.facebook.com/fat.bustard?hc_location=stream I’m sure you recognised the tandem he has at the top (SAH’s) presumably in deference? Also an interesting bit further down about a special offer from Vauxhall. “If anyone asks, say you know nothing.”
Bleb 12:19AM. You are right.
hey, Fera – if you read this – I was just joking.
Like I (almost) always do….
Can you blame [some of] us for being a bit exasperated and more than a tad suspicious? with absolutely everything done to make sure the case Chevaline MUST NOT be solved? with people on another blog absolutely determined to somehow pin it all on a “lone gunman” who may or may not be a total Coocoo?
In cases like this, a certain amount of healthy suspicion is par for the course….I have every faith in those who are really interested in finding out what really happened to break through little flimsy walls of ill-founded suspicion…..
Tim V, I saw that reference on the FB – what does Vauxahall mean in this context?
Fera
26 Jul, 2013 – 11:27 pm this post only reinforces the reservations I expressed earlier. I imagine the reasons will be transparent to most as I haven’t the energy to detail them. Maybe it would save a lot time and trouble if you just came clean and “faced up” – is that what they say?
Marlin
28 Jul, 2013 – 1:23 am I can’t believe the significance of Vauxhall has escaped your notice. Maybe this will help?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIS_Building
Of course the two are purely coincidental and quite unrelated. (I am sure BB might find the posters of interest though)
There has been such a mass of stuff covered (I have just caught up – so slow!) it must be nearly time for a useful summary of connections and where they may lead? And now its really past my bedtime. Who knows I might even attempt it tomorrow (today) myself. “1877” – really Marlin! What is this blog coming to?
Tim, marlin
I saw fb’s fb vauxhall post, too, many days ago. My first thought was SIS, but then i thought that he might be a car dealer? I did not follow up and debunked it. Do you think ….. ?
Marlin
Rashid’s fb page is pretty accurate and up to date and so is his linkedin profile.
He seems to be in Dubai quite often.
I think that he stopped updating his personal website once he started with fb, that makes sense. I am still puzzled about his company iguru.ae.
The work on that project suddenly stopped in august 2012. This is a dead project now. He was very proud regarding his iguru project/company, as you can read on his personal websites prior to august 2012.
At long last we have a photo of Ikbal AH. See today’s Telegraph for story of Justice Baker’s ruling that Zainab and Zeena are to be allowed to live with their maternal aunt and family. Rejoice!
You will note that they are going to continue to need some level of armed protection.
Credits to felix for his woolwich research on icke, i found a pretty significant thing he mentioned there:
Quote
++++++++++++++
BMW X5 ambulance car YK12 TKD was one of the blocking vehicles at Artillery Place, along with the “rapid armed response” similar police vehicle.http://www.flickr.com/photos/
comment:X5’s a total waste of time for any service to have as an RRV, let alone LAS!
RBY and TVX are also owned. The same registration sequence for the huge fleet of Olympic games BMWs.
++++++++++++++
Chevaline is searching for a BMW X5.
Might it be a possibility that MI5 did obtain a fleet of BMW X5 cars?
Woolwich, Olympic Games, Chevaline?
Where else do BMW X5 appear?
Lets have a look to the Queen’s public appearances.
Lets have a look to international politician meetings in London.
Are there significantly many BMW X5 depicted on most recent media pictures? Lets have a look just out of couriosity.
Jennywren
Link??????????
Nothing in the telegraph Did they have to pull their story due to the picture being released?
This is the closest i could come to:
http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/national/news/10576624.Care_plan_for_Alps_shooting_orphans/
Judge Baker said:
He said the girls would be subject to police protection.
I am authorising publication of (a) short summary of my decision … including the names of the girls,” said Mr Justice Baker in the statement. “However, reporting of any further detail of the circumstances of the girls and of the arrangements for their care remains prohibited.”
+++++++
Oh yeahhhh … the “lone nutter” is still dangerous and actively killing worldwide. BS!
Hmmm. BMW X5 available as armoured cars …….
The BMW X5 Security combines the comfort and dynamic performance you expect from a BMW with the latest in armour plating.The possibility of security modifications was designed into the BMW X5 from the start of its development.To ensure it retains the characteristic agility of a BMW, important changes have been made to its chassis and electronic driver aids, so that, despite its slightly increased weight, the BMW X5 Security offers the same safe, predictable handling as the standard BMW X5.
http://www.armoured-cars.co.uk/armoured-car-fleet-advanced-security-protection/
When the UK police is using BMW X5, why not MI5, too?
BMW X5 can be styled as a special armoured vehicle. BMW seems to have a good connection with the british government.
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1050846_uk-criminals-delight-new-bmw-police-cars-unveiled
BMW X5 for the 2012 london olympic games
http://www.thedieseldriver.com/2012/04/olympic-diesels-bmw-to-provide-diesel-vehicles-for-2012-london-games/
It isnt very unlikely that SIS is using BMW X5 cars. In contrary, I would say that there is a high possibility that they are using such cars, too.
BB
Huge apologies, it is the Sunday Times. What was I thinking of? I don’t read the Telegraph!
Interesting stuff re the BMW s and possible MI 5 link?!
How did WBM return to UK. What did he drive?
http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/National/article1293187.ece
That is the link, jennywren. Please always add links, that is saving time for others.
Thanks for mentioning the first iqbal al hilli photo ever.
Did you notice that this photo was provided to the sunday times by william mathews aka fat bastard?
Credits to jennywren for finding this.
First picture of Iqbal al Hilli, provided to the sunday times by fat bastard.
http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/multimedia/dynamic/00359/STN2809PIC1_359905k.jpg
Nake a copy before it disappears.
BB
Wowsers, no i didn’t spot that FB took the photo – I should start to develop better observational skills.
I think it is a pity we can’t have someway of having a board we can pin all our findings on like they do in all good detective series such as The Killing. Maybe you have one yourself? Obviously there is something helpful about seeing all the photos and links in one place with arrows and connections etc.
Jennywren – Thanks for that info
re: Zainab and Zeena are to be allowed to live with their maternal aunt and family.
Really pleased to hear that.
From the Telegraph article:
“Mr Justice Baker said a line of inquiry being pursued by French police investigating the shootings had been the possible involvement of a brother of Saad, Zaid Al-Hilli. The judge said Zaid Al-Hilli had been assigned the status of “suspect”, arrested, interviewed and released on bail.”
Notice his arrest without charge is clearly at the initiative of the French NOT the British. However other reports indicate English Law will apply and that French detectives sat in but were not allowed to question. Further as I mentioned back along, no arrest is permissible under PACE without caution which specifically enables him to remain silent if he wishes. No doubt on such a serious matter he would also have had legal representation.
I believe his bail was until about now so a decision on whether to extend will be taken soon.
The information BB has uncovered re. his employment is highly significant. Has anyone summarised what is in the public domain regarding his cv? Now 55, and the elder son, he was obviously 25 in 1983. The eighties were of course the height of the Irish troubles. When did he marry? How many children if any? When did he get divorced? When did he take up his present job? When did he move into 26 oaken lane (i think i have that right) presumably when his marriage failed. Then when he moved out again? I noticed he moved into his present address (a first floor flat) around February 2012.
And how does SAH’s marriage to Iqbal and children mesh with ZAH’s life story? Zaid surely did not live at 26 for the whole period SAH and family were there? James poured scorn on my mention that Iqbal replaced him as Company Secretary and had her personal address listed at the Accountant’s. Although highly unlikely she resided there it may be indicative that she was not living at Claygate?
It is quite feasible that it was Zaid not Saad (or in addition to?) who was our MI6 man.
I raised the possibility back along that the BMWx5 (if there was one) was an MI6 back-up vehicle. Why because IF the lay-by meeting was a British set up of some importance (that has been proved beyond doubt by subsequent events)it would be inconceivable that there would not be armed back-up somewhere close. So WBM (unarmed?) would play the role of eyes and ears with ability to call for back-up by phone (if it worked).
If this were the case the scenario would be WBM comes on the murder scene and asks for back up provided by RHD BMWx5 which storms up the Combe and when nothing to be done gets the hell out of there before police arrive.
However beyond this, nothing fits because the the vehicle is reported going up BEFORE the shooting. Unless the people in the X5 are the shooters we have to have another vehicle and killer(s) somewhere in the mix. And we would have to explain why the British would want to publicise one of their own vehicles?
The RHD x5 @ 3.20 is problematical which ever way you look at it.
@Tim V 27 Jul, 2013 – 11:31 pm
You know as well as I do there are plenty of other pistes ranging from state sponsored terrorism(SST)to the lone nutter(LN) with all stations in between.
I have said many times we do not have the evidence to form a definitive view, so I’m sitting on the fence and wavering between the two extremes.
Even if it is SST it’s possible the shooter was a ‘mec du coin’. Perhaps we should call him or her a local nutter, rather than a lone nutter.
BTW, Tim, according to your theory, where did the BMW start from when it commenced its rearwards trajectory into the bank?
@bleb 27 Jul, 2013 – 7:17 pm
I wouldn’t disagree with that at all.
@Marlin 28 Jul, 2013 – 1:23 am
Yep, Vauxhall is shorthand for that huge white edifice on the banks of the River Thames that regularly gets blown to bits in James Bond films! If you really are researching the dynamics of blogs, don’t forget the discussion about Chevaline started on here on CM’s thread on London Metropolitan University.
The late and great Anders7777 was soon on the case and early on he fingered the two Jameses as tea boys from Vauxhall! There did indeed appear to be two of them, with different posting styles. Maybe they worked shifts.
@Tim V 28 Jul, 2013 – 12:51 pm
If everything that has been discovered by BB is correct, and I have no reason to doubt it, as well as other little nuggets, then I am sure the family could have been very close to the inner circles of British intelligence perhaps for decades.
I seem to remember reading somewhere that there is a suggestion there has always been an element of British intelligence which has been insulated from Tel Aviv. If what we seem to be learning about the NSA, GCHQ, Narus and other security contractors is true, the sieve to Tel Aviv is even bigger than we might have imagined.
In that case, CM’s theory at the head of this thread, and Anders’ theory of a kidon hit squad may not be that far off the mark after all.
Tim v.
Just as a side note of your theory that the french and the british intelligence are teasing each other by revealing and doing or rather not doing certain things in the police investigation ….
The sudden search for a BMW X5 after 8 months ….
Could it be that all the world knows that maybe MI5 and for certain the British police are using BMW X5 armoured vehicles? Could this be some kind of teasing by the french? Like:
“Oh boys, we know that you guys were there, but as long as you dont ……, then we wont say …… capish?”
That BMW X5 code looks like as if the french – in a James Bond movie – would suddenly publicly search for an Aston Martin.
I am so pleased to hear some better news for the girls I really hoped there was some sort of background case going on , and pleased for FB I hope he can get to see them that will really cheer him up but at least he knows they are somewhere they want to go .
One odd thing in the Daily Mail story was a bit saying
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2380306/Al-Hilli-murders-Sisters-orphaned-parents-murdered-Alps-shootings-cared-aunt.html
“Surrey police wanted to keep the High Court ruling a secret but, in a victory for open justice, Sunday Times writer David James Smith challenged an order to exclude him from court.
Lawyers for the newspaper successfully argued that ‘the right to attend is an important aspect of the media’s watchdog role’.
Given the poor track record of the press in this case I do wonder sometimes,what value is there in him reporting the outcome for the girls the least people know the better IMO .
Why didnt they invest some energy in asking some half decent questions about the crime and its investigation instead.