The mainstream media for the most part has moved on. But there are a few more gleanings to be had, of perhaps the most interesting comes from the Daily Mirror, which labels al-Hilli an extremist on the grounds that he was against the war in Iraq, disapproved of the behaviour of Israel and had doubts over 9/11 – which makes a great deal of the population “extremist”. But the Mirror has the only mainstream mention I can find of the possibility that Mossad carried out the killings. Given Mr al-Hilli’s profession, the fact he is a Shia, the fact he had visited Iran, and the fact that Israel heas been assassinating scientists connected to Iran’s nuclear programme, this has to be a possibility. There are of course other possibilities, but to ignore that one is ludicrous.
Which leads me to the argument of Daily Mail crime reporter, Stephen Wright, that the French police should concentrate on the idea that this was a killing by a random Alpine madman or racist bigot. Perfectly possible, of course, and the anti-Muslim killings in Marseille might be as much a precedent as Mossad killings of scientists. But why the lone madman idea should be the preferred investigation, Mr Wright does not explain. What I did find interesting from a man who has visited many crime scenes are his repeated insinuations that the French authorities are not really trying very hard to find who the killers were, for example:
the crime scene would have been sealed off for a minimum of seven to ten days, to allow detailed forensic searches for DNA, fibres, tyre marks and shoe prints to take place.
Nearby bushes and vegetation would have been searched for any discarded food and cigarette butts left by the killer, not to mention the murder weapon.
But from what I saw at the end of last week, no such searches had taken place and potentially vital evidence could have been missed. House to house inquiries in the local area had yet to be completed and police had not made specific public appeals for information about the crime. No reward had been put up for information about the shootings.
Behind the scenes, what other short cuts have been taken? Have police seized data identifying all mobile phones being used in the vicinity of the murders that day?
The idea that the French authorities – who are quite as capable as any other of solving cases – are not really trying very hard is an interesting one.
Which leads me to this part of a remarkable article from the Daily Telegraph, which if true points us back towards a hit squad and discounts the ides that there was only one gun:
Claims that only one gun was used to kill everybody is likely to be disproved by full ballistics test results which are out in October.
While the 25 spent bullet cartridges found at the scene are all of the same kind, they could in fact have come from a number of weapons of the same make.
This throws up the possibility of a well-equipped, highly-trained gang circling the car and then opening fire.
Both children were left alive by the killers, who had clinically pumped bullets into everybody else, including five into Mr Mollier.
Zainab was found staggering around outside the car by Brett Martin, a British former RAF serviceman who cycled by moments after the attack, but he saw nobody except the schoolgirl.
Her sister, Zeena, was found unscathed and hiding in the car eight hours later.
Both sisters are now back in Britain, and are believed to have been reunited at a secret location near London.
There are of course a number of hit squad options, both governmental and private, which might well involve iraqi or Iranian interests – on both of which the mainstream media have been very happy to speculate while almost unanimously ignoring Israel.
But what interests me is why the Daily Telegraph choose, in the face of all the evidence, to minimise the horrific nature of the attack by stating that “Both children were left alive by the killers”? Zainab was not left alive by design, she was shot in the chest and her skull was stove in, which presumably was a pretty serious attempt to kill a seven year-old child. The other girl might very well have succeeded in hiding from the killers under her mother’s skirts, as she hid from the first rescuers, and then for eight hours from the police.
The Telegraph article claims to be informed by sources close to the investigation. So they believe it was a group of people, and feel motivated to absolve those people from child-killing. Now what could the Daily Telegraph be thinking?
Also If no one is going to look at all the possibilities, regardless of personal opinion, then sadly this case will never be solved
I’m sure no one would mind
减肥药排行榜
11 Aug, 2013 – 1:38 pm though I’m not really the one to say as it’s CM’s site. Perhaps all you need to do is give the reference so that those interested can drop in. “The more the merrier” I say.
Case Closer
11 Aug, 2013 – 7:37 pm – is that “Closer” as in “nearer” or “closer” as in “terminate”?
Katie
It doesnt matter whether or not mr.X is involved. that doesnt change the script and the theory at all. I said that there were probably many who wanted to claim the formerly frozen iraqi money from geneve banks, including mafia, terror organisations and politicians as well as governments. One more or less claiming the money/property doesnt matter.
There is/was a fight for Iraqi money and Saad was in the middle of that mess as the son of kadhim and the son in law of hezbollah-grandma.
Who knows whether or not the assassination of 3 female PKK leaders in paris only 1 month later wasnt about the same money reason, too?
Also i havent yet debunked the theory that Zaid Meyer Lansky is Mr.X’s accountant, professionally hidden and covert up in that golf club.
Case Closer you say: “I mean if he was going to be murdered because of Saddam, then wouldn’t it have happened when Saddam was alive?”
Had the murders ceased when Saddam was forced out I could follow your logic. However as no doubt you are aware both targeted assassination and general acts of violence, such as car bombs, increased. Even ten years later we have this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23651828
It has been claimed the violence is orchestrated and carried out by disaffected Sunni elements. It is probably far more complicated than that. Why for example would Sunni’s kill their own scientists and engineers? We have to look to geo-politics for possible explanations.
You say: “As for Mossad, PLEASE:)” You obviously think that is out of the question. Given your argument that we should consider all options, I find that rather inconsistent of you.
Care to say why you think it so impossible?
BB, can you poss remind me if you thought there was any connection with Pierre Mollier the Director of Archives at the Grand Orient de France. Quite an interesting article here http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-04-19/france-where-freemasons-are-still-feared#p2
BB I have great respect for your research skills and reasoning. Your theory has therefore to be taken seriously. Either in whole or in part you may have hit the bullseye. So why am I unpersuaded? Maybe I just feel it in my bones? Coming up with a rational reason is more difficult.
I can go along with you that the £800 000 Geneva account is an important part of the jigsaw but not necessarily in the way you describe. First, as far as I am aware we only have the French and Germans say so that it was there and that SAH visited the bank on the previous day to the killings. Given how unreliable – indeed positively misleading – and secretive, the French have been proved to be, I think anything they put out has to be treated with the greatest caution.
You may be able to correct me, but as far as I know we have had no independent corroboration of the existence, size, location or origins of that money from either the British police, Swiss authorities or family, so we are essentially in the dark about it. As I have said before the German sourcing I find suspicious insofar they popped up from nowhere with a very specific bit of information, clearly designed to link the Al Hillis with Saddam and colour their reputation.
There are too many outstanding questions relating to the money and the purpose of the trip to the bank (if there was one) to rely on the story completely. Nothing has been said about the nature of the conversation with the bank although this must be known by the police. Nor all the facts about when it was deposited either as a lump sum or in staged payments.
Even if the investigators felt they were unable to share this information with us, don’t you think after nearly a year, there would have been consequences, such as the money being frozen or associated charges relating to money laundering laid? Or even given the value of what it would reveal why not keep it secret altogether until the enquiries were completed? On the other hand if it was all above board, would Zaid still be in a boring job in a nondescript flat? It seems to me the the money story is manipulation yet again. It’s too suspect to base a whole theory on in other words.
But I think my bigger reservation on your very respectable idea is the poor fit it has with the response of government and context of the crime itself. If as you argue this was an essentially criminal enterprise involving multiple murders over money, not only did it not achieve any logical objective (they didn’t get the money) but I am certain the whole response from Governments (through their police forces) would have been very different. The leads would have been uncovered, people would have been arrested don’t you think?
Jenny wren
We did discuss pierre mollier and the freemason lodge on this blog for quite some time. However, we did not find any relevance other than some theories. However, nothing related to the murder. You can read this on this blog when you jump back to october/november.
Tim v.
I said that the money is probably claimed by several organisations, mafia, politicians AND governments.
Usually governments are using mobsters and mafia or political extremists like neonazis or anarchists for the dirty jobs.
France still does refuse to return the now 200 million worth EADS shares to iraq (owned by saddam hussein)
France still refuses to return money stored in swiss accounts to return to iraq.
Israel, turkey and other governments won’t be happy when part of that money is going to Hezbollah or PKK.
There are probably only a few people who know details about that property and money.
How convenient to eliminate some of those who do not obey to government and/or mafia orders and who wanted to do with the money something what THEY believe is best for iraq and for shia islam.
The government reaction is fully understandable when that was an assassination requested by one or more of the governments.
Let’s serious Zaid Meyer Lansky control that money rather than israel ranting Saad and hezbollah grandma. All what Zaid had to do was to inform the necessary people that his younger brother went nuts and that he endangers certain interests.
The rest was a consequence. Zaid warned his brother but Saad did not hear him. That was his death penalty.
How convenient that now the money stays were it was and that some uncontrolable “knowing ones” were eliminated.
Full government intervention.
French, British and probably Israel involved (if this was about hezbollah funding).
Follow the money and we shall know the killers.
I believe that the only message we should believe in the MSM reports as being true is that message coming from german intelligence BND.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11107739
statistics of success?
BB may I suggest the biggest flaw in your suggestion is that if this was an attempt to get the money it was fundamentally misconceived AND ineffective. There are TWO sons with children for one thing and killing people does not secure access.
Now capturing and torturing or using to blackmail someone else, that might work.
No the only way this event is explicable is either retribution or intervention as a means of preventing something else in my opinion (for what it’s worth).
I think its quite possible money is tied up in all this and may be part of the cause. As regards Iraq we are talking about eye watering (hundreds of billions of dollars) amounts that have either gone missing completely, been dispersed in bribes in every direction and has been stashed away illegally. This is besides over 800 BILLION (see above) it has cost the US alone for the invasion and subsequent occupation or the cost to Iraqi infrastructure that has been set back decades!
All in all Iraq has been an unmitigated disaster of such proportion in one sense it puts Chevaline in the shade. We can do little in the face of such criminal enormity. That is why I stick with Chevaline. It is totemic and emblematic of the larger crime.
Tim, I too am inclined to think this is not about money per se. This is more about past actions ,pride ,reputations & cover up, not about politics directly either……..powerful people want to stay in place with reputations in tact. & all that that gives them access to.
The only way to securely gag someone is to eliminate them.
Probably unrelated but interesting enough.
Dr.Barrett, we hope you feel save while driving your car ….
http://presstv.com/detail/2013/08/09/317875/tsarnaevs-911-truthers-not-terrorists/
The Boston Globe quoted Tamerlan’s neighbor, Harvey Smith, as saying that Tamerlan owned many 9/11 truth publications, some of them gifts from Donald Larking. But according to Smith, the FBI showed no interest in Tamerlan’s 9/11 truth material; they carted off all of his Islamic books as “evidence,” but left the 9/11 stuff.
Tim V.
Feel free to have your theories but I have mine.
I am just going through logic to link all involved (dead) people to the assassination. My tgeory links grandma, Saad and SM as being key people sharing a similar interest: Iraqi money and trust papers stored and previously frozen by UNO, now available for pickup in Geneve for those who have the keys and the authority (necessary signatures). I am not talking about the little 800.000 but about millions.
Now that they are dead it is accountant Zaid (Meyer Lansky) who is in control as it was planned for. Mafia, CIA/Gladio and the governments and the French are happy, Hezbollah and PKK are unhappy.
I believe that it would be a good idea to write a summary of all the theories submitted to this blog. There were plenty. I am sure that people like KS have a better brain and a better data collection than me, but i’ll do a starter, please continue.
1. Saad worked for Iran and SM did provide him Zirconium, therefore Israel killed him.
2. Saad worked on a Hafnium bomb and SM did provide him Hafnium, there for Mossad or another agency killed him.
3. Saad and family killed by a Jewish/American teenager William Hershkovitz (wrongly spelled, sic!) for no apparent reason.
4. Saad and family were killed by a lone nutter who loved to shoot at tourists
5. Saad was a surveillance expert and he knew secret stuff such as 9/11 and he wss about to leak that.
6. Saad smuggled weapons to Iran for Mr.X.
7. Saad deceived Mr. X
8. Saad was a member of “team Berezovsky” as it were the Tsarnaevs, Williams and other dead bodies. There is a cleaning of the “knowing” regarding the terror plots particularly 9/11.
9. Saad was killed by Zaid’s paid killer due to a family dispute for money.
12. Saad was a victim of blood feud war happening between the al Sistani/al Khoei gang and the Sadr gang.
13. WBM killed Saad because he was an enemy of Boeing, supporting airbus and perhaps tertorising Boeing planes with technical errors.
14. Saad was a victim of a competition between EADS and Boeing regarding sales.
15 Saad planted Stuxnet into Iranian nuclear devices and he was killed by Iran.
16. My “follow the money” theory, that explains the involvement of grandma and SM (french metal workers union).
17. Saad worked for Hezbollah intelligence and uncovert both CIA and Mossad agents in Lebanon.
18. Saad was involved in the Hariri assassination in Dubai.
19. Saad was a double agent and his double play was uncovert by wikileaks documents.
20. Saad was a whistleblower.
21. Saad was a terrorist who prepared a nuclear terror attack.
22. This was a false flag. Nobody was killed and they live with new identities now.
23. Saad was mixed up with white collar crook Issam el Hilli who used Saad’s identity to cover himself from threats.
Please continue that summary ….
Il have a go
SAH recruited in an MI6 initiative to lure either a buyer or seller of x,y,z components destined for a foreign player (e.g. Iran). Motive: to find out what they need, who they use, and possibly supply them with time-wasting junk. I happen to know this is a routine scenario, though not so much the junk option.
SAH fits a needed profile as a cut out, but with little experience, and an unrealistic concept of the risk, he takes his family as “cover”.
a) Target (SM) or target’s org gets wise to the deception and blows everybody away at arranged meeting. (Bill Martin who is supposed to be watcher arrives late, possibly kills SM)
or b) A 3rd party (e.g. Mossad) gets wise but thinks its a real effort to transfer something and eliminates all without asking.
Huge cock up. egg on faces, British embassy desperately stage manage cover up. Explain to the French security service what was going on on their country who in turn, put on a hold for a few hours then stage manage the investigation, complete with false ballistics info 4×4 rumours, odd witnesses, non existent tourist photos and other leaks.
Bill Martin whisked out of country, despite being obvious prime suspect, and staged interview rehearsed and broadcast.
Various obvuscatory red herrings provided to press plus active attempts to muddy blog waters over the following 11 months.
Bluebird,
I think 1) & 2) in your “theory summary” above are far too specific. I would combine them into just one:
1) AHs and SM were linked in some way, and Israel regarded this as acting against its interests and had them killed. Investigation deliberately botched and information withheld to avoid embarrassment to the states involved.
And to be fair to the “local crime” theorists, I think your 4) should just read:
4a) All were killed by a lone nutter
and add some more:
4b) All were killed by a local or regional serial killer
4c) SM was target for “local” reasons, AHs killed as they witnessed crime
4d) AHs killed by racist local, possibly connected to police or military. SM killed as he witnessed crime
intp1 @ 12 Aug, 2013 – 10:53 am
I like theory. It also tallies with the almost complete lack of information about SM.
Bleb
Feel free to update/add your theories. Many of those theories i personally believe to be BS, however, I tried to mention all theories that i could remember.
However, i am quite sure that i had missed out or wrongly interpreted some theories. It would be nice if CM could then copy/paste the theory summary (once finished by us) into the blog header. That would save us and particularly the newcomers to this blog time and avoid a “perpetuum mobile” discussion over and over about the same already discussed theories.
Intp1, i consider your theory as one of the more likely ones. What does not fit, however, were the previous threats in Surrey and Saad being very afraid about those threats or perhaps such blackmailings. I doubt that MI 6 would threaten his life in Surrey. They had other opportunities to blackmail him if they wanted to. That style rather looks like a mobster/mafia organisation or a terrorist organisation but not like government’s intelligence.
@Intp1 – the more I think about it, the better I like your theory. It gets my vote.
@BB – regarding threats to Saad. If these were true and we assume Intp1’s theory to be also true then surely it would not be MI6 that Saad was worried about but rather those he was dealing with on behalf of MI6 or their enemies.
You also need to consider that some state intelligence agencies can and do act like terrorist organisations.
Bluebird
12 Aug, 2013 – 8:13 am I am all for people, including yourself, having their theories and arguing them here. I am sure there are elements of yours that may give insight. I just don’t think it can explain Government responses. You might be right. I might be wrong. My observations are not personal. They are merely made in the best spirit of open debate, through which hopefully we edge towards the true explanation. I always endeavour to address the argument rather than engage in personal remarks, though I reserve the right to respond to abuse if and when it appears. Please keep up your great contribution to the site.
That’s a really useful summary BB. I have saved it. It just shows what options remain to be explored.
Sorry forgot to add this: Bluebird
12 Aug, 2013 – 9:41 am. Incidentally, I think it will give the perpetrators cause for satisfaction. Lots more room for misinformation and false trails.
Ha! Ha! Unexpectedly seem to have got the 17 thousandth comment. Who would have thought when Craig started this second thread?
Tim v.
I believe that it is easier to see what is false trail and what is more likely when we would have a summary of all theories here, no matter how weird they sound. Otherwise this blog is going to become a perpetuum mobile simply because newcomers wont know about what had been already discussed during the last 11 months.
I like bleb’s addition and correction and i would hope that everyone who could remember will contribute the forgotten theories to this list, including those of late anders. I am sure that there had been many more theories discussed. We could also add the theories of other blogs.
We have five huge blocksbof theories:
1) money issues, fraud, blackmailing, money laundering
2) terror, whistleblowing, secret service stuff
3) blood feud (families, religious leaders or political feuds)
4) Accident, identity mix up, false target, tourist hater
5) Revenge for previous fraud or espionage, nuclear smuggling
Those 5 blogs should be considered as the main category with sub categories for the different theories.
I believe that if we had such a summary, we would have it easier to eliminate the ones tgat are illogic and reduce it to the theories that sound more logic.
I hope that others with more talent and better english can do such a list, starting from my first brainstorming list.
I like your “Have a go” Intp1
12 Aug, 2013 – 10:53 am. Pretty much spot-on I would say.
BREAKING!
Eric’s lone nutter arrested???
I bet that they’ll set him up. Or else they suicide him ….
http://m.thelocal.fr//20130812/french-soldier-held-over-mosque-attack-plan
French police have arrested a young soldier on suspicion of planning to fire shots at a mosque near the eastern city of Lyon, the interior ministry said Sunday.The 23-year-old man, who investigators say is “close to the radical far-right”, was detained at his airbase near Lyon.
He was remanded in custody on Wednesday and charged with the possession of ammunition and plans to damage a place of worship “in connection with a terrorist enterprise”.
He also admitted to throwing an incendiary device at a mosque door in southwestern Libourne in August last year. No one was hurt in that incident which did not cause any damage.
According to reports in French radio site Europe1 the soldier was “lonely psychologically unstable and had been through a difficult time in his love life”.
Police sources also told Europe1 the soldier had tried various time to make contact with Maxime Brunerie, a far right sympathizer, who was jailed for anassassination attempt against then President Jacques Chirac in 2002.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/12/french-air-force-officer-mosque-attack
In a statement, the French interior minister, Manuel Valls, praised the intelligence services for detaining the sergeant and preventing the attack. “The interior minister reiterates his resolute determination to combat all violence inspired by extremist ideology,” it said.
Relatives of the airman said he had been affected by the suicide of the rightwing historian Dominique Venner, who shot himself in front of the altar in Notre-Dame cathedral in Paris on 21 May.
Investigators told French journalists the man
was “a lone figure and psychologically fragile … and going through a difficult period after romantic difficulties”.
His family alerted the authorities after finding documents suggesting he had links with “terrorist” organisations and had “views close to the extreme right”.
Bluebird,
re: five huge blocksbof [???] theories
I would just go for three main categories of theory:
1) State
2) Criminal
3) Local/Regional
@ Bleb
It shouldn’t be about if you like a theory, rather what does it explain, what doesn’t it explain.
What information confirms or precludes a theory that is most corroborated by most trusted independent sources and is also logical.
What information is least confirmed?
A theory doesn’t need to explain everything you know since any given person has many things going on in their life that don’t pertain to just one aspect or project.
This is the frustrating conundrum that has been expressed here many times. We actually know very little that we can seriously rely on. There is more information out there that is either irrelevant or actively dishonest than there is reliable info.
There are certain self evident facts that I take as given though there is a low probability even they are wrong.
One is that Bill Martin is not what they say and therefore nothing he says can be trusted, not to say he must be punctuating his story with some truth.
My reasoning on Martin is that no-one could be expected to be at the scene of a multiple murder, to have interfered with the car, the bodies etc and then be invited by the authorities to leave the country within 48 hours, hailed as a hero, and strangely identified by a profession from several jobs before. Martin to me strains all credulity and then you add the odd coincidences of location of office and shared odd accountants etc.
Lets also take for example BBs information that threats to SAH in the UK are not explained.
I’m not completely up to speed on these but lets ask where does this info come from and how many trusted, independent sources? If we are still confident he was threatened, could it be just another aspect of his complicated life? Could it be consistent with the theory of being recruited by MI6? When you add all that up. does it effectively knock down, support or is neutral to a candidate theory.
My brainstorm theory could be wrong, probably is in at the very least some respects. But what theories are best supported and explain the most undeniable facts should be explored and would be by any professional investigator but who’s going to do it? Obviously no-one currently in charge.
Agreed Bluebird
12 Aug, 2013 – 1:48 pm. I have been posting on here long enough for everyone to know my personal view I would say even if it’s not set in stone and open to persuasion with reasoned argument. I would say that Intp1
12 Aug, 2013 – 10:53 am. and Marlin (leaving aside the abstraction theory) come closest to it so far though there may well be elements of yours.
We have discussed “arms length” criminal or Gladio elements to do the actual killing in the past, more favoured by CIA than Mossad. However I remain convinced by the sensitive nature of the killings (British and French on French soil and all the high level connections of the targets; the precision of it timed almost to seconds in such a remote spot with at least 15 minute access and egress time required; the almost certain necessary assistance to secure un-witnessed escape and cover-up;) criminal elements with all the risks of “leakage and foul-up, would NOT have been chosen.
I believe this has all the hallmarks of professional killers chosen and trained specifically purpose, probably from military units.
Given the well-known modus of Israeli “Kidon” teams which absolutely fits in numbers and method, my money is still on them, with US backing in the form of possibly satellite surveillance and communications and with French tacit assistance to allow untrammelled escape probably by air from near-by airport.
If this be true, there must be elements to the story that bring these three together. They must ALL benefit if they co-operated. This is a pointer back to the cause.
I believe Britain was eased out on this one. That this is known in government circles. It is (almost) the only thing that can explain the extraordinary treatment of the French investigators, their reaction with armed units operating independently on foreign territory, subsequent very overt armed protection of both Zaid and the children.
This says to enemies and “friends” “You may have caught us out once, but you won’t be doing it again” and “the show is not over until the fat lady sings” – whilst keeping up appearances of solidarity and concord with our political cousins both east and west because the ramifications of public spat are just too great.
Maxime Brunerie, Christian Mollier and Dominique Venner were one “team” in the extreme right MNR party, sponsored by the french metal workers union with Saddam Hussein money from Geneve (my theory). Brunerie and Venner are named in connection with the now arrested extreme right french airforce soldier who did attempt to shoot into a mosque while he hit an explosive device into a mosque last august 2012.
I wonder about how a so called “mentally ill” could be accepted in the airforce. How come? Isnt there a supervisor?
http://lahorde.samizdat.net/2013/05/02/ras-lfront-isere-terre-celtique-grenoble-boutique-et-local-lie-a-lextreme-droite-2/