The mainstream media for the most part has moved on. But there are a few more gleanings to be had, of perhaps the most interesting comes from the Daily Mirror, which labels al-Hilli an extremist on the grounds that he was against the war in Iraq, disapproved of the behaviour of Israel and had doubts over 9/11 – which makes a great deal of the population “extremist”. But the Mirror has the only mainstream mention I can find of the possibility that Mossad carried out the killings. Given Mr al-Hilli’s profession, the fact he is a Shia, the fact he had visited Iran, and the fact that Israel heas been assassinating scientists connected to Iran’s nuclear programme, this has to be a possibility. There are of course other possibilities, but to ignore that one is ludicrous.
Which leads me to the argument of Daily Mail crime reporter, Stephen Wright, that the French police should concentrate on the idea that this was a killing by a random Alpine madman or racist bigot. Perfectly possible, of course, and the anti-Muslim killings in Marseille might be as much a precedent as Mossad killings of scientists. But why the lone madman idea should be the preferred investigation, Mr Wright does not explain. What I did find interesting from a man who has visited many crime scenes are his repeated insinuations that the French authorities are not really trying very hard to find who the killers were, for example:
the crime scene would have been sealed off for a minimum of seven to ten days, to allow detailed forensic searches for DNA, fibres, tyre marks and shoe prints to take place.
Nearby bushes and vegetation would have been searched for any discarded food and cigarette butts left by the killer, not to mention the murder weapon.
But from what I saw at the end of last week, no such searches had taken place and potentially vital evidence could have been missed. House to house inquiries in the local area had yet to be completed and police had not made specific public appeals for information about the crime. No reward had been put up for information about the shootings.
Behind the scenes, what other short cuts have been taken? Have police seized data identifying all mobile phones being used in the vicinity of the murders that day?
The idea that the French authorities – who are quite as capable as any other of solving cases – are not really trying very hard is an interesting one.
Which leads me to this part of a remarkable article from the Daily Telegraph, which if true points us back towards a hit squad and discounts the ides that there was only one gun:
Claims that only one gun was used to kill everybody is likely to be disproved by full ballistics test results which are out in October.
While the 25 spent bullet cartridges found at the scene are all of the same kind, they could in fact have come from a number of weapons of the same make.
This throws up the possibility of a well-equipped, highly-trained gang circling the car and then opening fire.
Both children were left alive by the killers, who had clinically pumped bullets into everybody else, including five into Mr Mollier.
Zainab was found staggering around outside the car by Brett Martin, a British former RAF serviceman who cycled by moments after the attack, but he saw nobody except the schoolgirl.
Her sister, Zeena, was found unscathed and hiding in the car eight hours later.
Both sisters are now back in Britain, and are believed to have been reunited at a secret location near London.
There are of course a number of hit squad options, both governmental and private, which might well involve iraqi or Iranian interests – on both of which the mainstream media have been very happy to speculate while almost unanimously ignoring Israel.
But what interests me is why the Daily Telegraph choose, in the face of all the evidence, to minimise the horrific nature of the attack by stating that “Both children were left alive by the killers”? Zainab was not left alive by design, she was shot in the chest and her skull was stove in, which presumably was a pretty serious attempt to kill a seven year-old child. The other girl might very well have succeeded in hiding from the killers under her mother’s skirts, as she hid from the first rescuers, and then for eight hours from the police.
The Telegraph article claims to be informed by sources close to the investigation. So they believe it was a group of people, and feel motivated to absolve those people from child-killing. Now what could the Daily Telegraph be thinking?
It’s going to take everyone to work together let’s not spend time
On personnel vendettas! We all bring some great ideas let’s stick to cracking this!
Katie
It was THE LAST CHANCE (date!) for mrs. al allaf to renew her old stylish (non biometric) UNLP in geneva. Plus it was the last chance for her daughter to get an UNLP diplomats passport as a close relative. The biometric new e-UNLPs are issued only for the authorised UN members but not for relatives. Starting from sept 3rd 2012, relatives would only get a certificate that enables them to enter UNO buildings and UNO missions but they would not get a diplomats passport any longer.
An UNLP would give Iqbal the chance to travel into e.g. schengen, (including sweden), the UK and many other countries without applying for a visa (if, as you said, she had no UK passport but an iraqi passport only. The UNLP gives a lot of advantages at airports and border controls.
Given the information i did investigate mrs al allaf and her UNO links (WHO) i would suggest that she was applying for an old stylish non biometric new UNLP (expires in 5 years) closely before she had to apply for a new styled biometric e-passport. The timing is crucial for this theory.
I dod not say that this is a reason for the killings. But this could have been the reason why
1) they took mrs al allaf to geneve as a person (applicant signing the passport) and
2) why iqbal was in geneve and
3) why 2 passports are missing.
Katie
Why would they bother to go to genevr for renewal (or application) of an iraqi passport?
They could do that more easy at home. In the iraqi embassy. Applications you may download online.
If they were applying for a passport in geneve then it was an UNLP but no iraqi passport. They could get it in london much more convenient.
http://www.iraqinationality.gov.iq/passport_en.htm
http://iraq.embassyhomepage.com/
http://www.aliraqi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=32673
This should also be considered.
Saad was no Iraqi citizen. He lost his iraqi citizenship in 2003 when he became a UK citizen.
What is the procedure to re-apply for an iraqi citizenship?
Answer: you will have to present your father’s ID!!!!
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_nationality_law
Dual citizenship
As per the 2006 reforms, Iraq recognises dual nationality. Prior to then, Iraqi nationals who acquired another citizenship lost their Iraqi citizenship automatically
BB,
Yes of course they could, I threw that into the mix for a possible reason, there of course , could be many reasons for them to visit the Mission, we don’t even know that they did made such a visit……..maybe a preference rather than using the UK Embassy,what if they didn’t want the staff in the UK to know, that’s a possibility ?
But if they were using a diplomatic passports why was there an Iraqi PP in the car, surely that was Igbals ?
….then there’s the question if the other PP’s were left at the Mission……….how come Igbals wasn’t
Law regarding Iraqi citizenship.
It isnt unlikely that Iqbal had lost her Iraqi citizenship, too.
At least it was impossible that she had both UK and Iraqi citizenship unless she was divorced from Saad or else both Saad and Iqbal had lived in iraq since 2006 for at least one consecutive year. We dont have information about that.
Katie: the iraqi passport they found in the car could have been the passport of Saad’s father kadhim. Thats what eric confirmed that they found it.
Neither Mrs. Al allaf had a valid iraqi passport unless she had lived in iraq for one consecutive year since 2006. Perhaps all of them had their old (invalid) iraqi passports with them to confirm their family relations at the UNO headquarters.
However, it is quite impossible due to iraqi law (see below) that iqbal and saad had both a valid uk and a valid iraqi passport because they lost iraqi citizenship in 2003. And if mrs al allaf had a swedish passport she was most likely no iraqi citizen either except when she got her swedish citizenship only after 2006 but i doubt that. She probably got this swedish passport much earlier and therefore she had lost her iraqi citizenship.
http://www.refworld.org/docid/3ae6b4ec38.html
Law No. (46) of 1963 – Iraqi Nationality
ARTICLE 20:
The Minister may withdraw the Iraqi nationality from an Iraqi national in the following cases:1. If he accepts to fulfill military service for a foreign country without a previous permit made by the Minister of Defence.2. If he works for the interest of a foreign state or government, or an antagonist authority abroad, or if he accepts, abroad, a job at any foreign government, or any foreign or international bodies, and refuses to leave it despite the order made to him by the Minister.3. If he usually resides abroad and joins a foreign body among whose purposes is the destruction of the social and economic system of the state by any means whatsoever.
ARTICLE 11:
1. Every Iraqi national who has acquired a foreign nationality in a foreign country by his own choice, shall lose his Iraqi nationality2. If the person, who has lost his Iraqi Nationality under item 1 of this Article, returned to Iraq in a legal manner and resided there for one year, the Minister may deem him after the lapse of this year to be acquiring the Iraqi nationality from the date of his return if he submits a request to restore the Iraqi nationality before the expiration of the said period.
2. If an Iraqi woman is married to an alien or Iraqi national who has acquired a foreign nationality after the date of marriage , she shall lose the Iraqi nationality when she has acquired the nationality of her husband by her own choice. She must restore her Iraqi nationality in the event of her husband’s death, divorce or dissolution of marriage. She shall restore the Iraqi nationality from the date of submitting a request to this effect, provided that she is in Iraq when submitting the request.3. If a woman loses her Iraqi nationality because she has acquired her foreign husband’s nationality, she may restore the Iraqi nationality, if her foreign husband is granted the Iraqi nationality, or if she is married to a person who possesses the Iraqi nationality; then, she shall acquire the nationality from the date of submitting a request to this effect.4 A foreign woman who is married to an Iraqi national may not acquire except her husband’s nationality according to pare 1 of this Article. A foreign woman who is married to an alien may not acquire the Iraqi nationality by herself only.
Updated law 2006:
III- Iraqi courts shall apply Iraqi laws on holders of Iraqi nationality together with that of a foreign state. An Iraqi who has renounced his Iraqi nationality shall have the right to restore it if he/ she return to Iraq and stayed there for at least one year. The Minister may consider this person Iraqi as of the date of his return if he/she has submitted an application for restoring Iraqi nationality before the expiry of said period. This right is availed only once and for all.
BB.
No one has ever mentioned Igbal took British nationality but yes Saad did, so therefore he had definitely gained a British PP. The reason I believe Igbals PP was in the car was because she did not need to ‘re-apply’ like Saad,if indeed he did /was doing.
I had not heard anything about Kadhims PP in the car, they said ‘papers’ not PP.
Plus, Kadhim was also a British citizen with a British PP & a frail old man,why would he have applied for an Iraqi PP in the last 6 years of his life?
Off topic
Chris spivey’s site hacked plus a telephone call from essex police.
A threat to an investigation website?
http://www.chrisspivey.co.uk/site-update/
Quote
If that isn’t enough to make me go bald when I have enough on my plate already, I now have the Detective Chief Inspector from Essex Police writing to me, requesting the pleasure of my company to “discuss the contents of my website”.The letter carry’s a threat of alternative action should I not meet him and comply.The fact that I get approached by a DCI requesting a meeting as opposed to being dragged down the cop shop by a couple of bods in uniform speaks volumes and to me suggests that the police are unsure of their territory.In fact, I know they are by the very fact that a couple of bods in uniform haven’t kicked my door in and dragged my arse down to the station.Moreover the absence of any quoted laws in the letter re-enforces my belief.
Katie
Read again:
If an Iraqi woman is married to an alien or Iraqi national who has acquired a foreign nationality after the date of marriage , she shall lose the Iraqi nationality when she has acquired the nationality of her husband by her own choice.
Of course it is possible that she did not apply for a uk citizenship but then she had an iraqi passport and travelling from uk to france would require a special schengen visa (bothersome to get for an iraqi, usually declined). Except when she had a UNLP ….
I strongly guess that she had an UK passport.
Eruc said that saad did have his father’s iraqi passport. Saad was found in the car (dead). Logic: kadhim’s passport was found in the car.
BB
‘Saad al-Hilli was an Iraqi-born British citizen. His wife held an Iraqi passport and her mother was a Swedish national’
I can’t find any reference to Kadhims PP, can you post a link ?
For all we know Igbal did have a Visa due to her mother having a Swedish PP.
“she shall lose the Iraqi nationality ‘when ‘she has acquired the nationality of her husband………..’ by her own choice.”
That does not make it automatic BB.
Katie
Ricki Tarr25 Oct, 2013 – 5:06 pm
Telegraph link.
In a separate disclosure, Eric Maillaud, a prosecutor in charge of the case, said the murdered couple’s British passports had never been found.
That suggests that the “couple had british passports”
Having a british passport suggests that she was NO iraqi citizen anymore (read my law quote)
Neither mrs. Al allaf was iraqi citizen or she could not have a swedish passport.
Consequence: none of them had a valid iraqi passport.
None of them!
I cannot find the quote where i read about kadhim’s passport. Maybe i was wrong but i thought having read that somewhere here in the last 3 days.
BB.
Yes I know what Maillaud has said which is why I said the report differs to the earlier ones that all said 2 PP were found in the car with the bodies,one was ‘definitely’ for the mother………
Don’t you remember there was confusion about her age because somehow ,somewhere they said there two different ages ?
Which could well mean confusion about which one was the Iraqi & which was the Swedish citizen, neither were British PP, the other possibility is that both were the mothers,but they would surely show the same age ?
The confusion leads me to believe the faces of the two women were badly disfigured because they could see the age difference.
I say again, it would appear that three British PP ‘s are missing not two.
Odd there’s no mention of children’s PP, Maillaud only talks of ‘the couple’ ……..meaning Mr & Mrs.
EDIT: Could NOT see the age difference.’
Here it is, I also remember another report saying they found these Pp’s on the car floor,which we remarked on as a strange place for them.
“Sweden confirmed that one of the victims was Swedish. French authorities found a Swedish passport that appears to be that of an older woman slain in the car, born in 1938, as well as an Iraqi passport.”
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/09/06/4-year-old-girl-found-alive-after-hiding-under-corpses-for-8-hours-in-french/
Something that opposes any sane logic:
Quote:
Investigators searched absolutely everywhere, on the bodies, in the family caravan, in the house in Claygate (in Britain),” he said. “Given the timing (of the killings), it’s not impossible that the killer took the two passports… but that would have been tight.”
Questions:
Why did they search for the british passports in claygate?
This is insane, except for tgey knew that the couple had UNLPs.
1) they both could not have had iraqi passports if they had british.
2) how would police ever imagine them to enter france without a valid passport?
Answer: they knew that they had UNLP passports. Those were the passports found in the car. Otherwise they would have been insane when searching their uk passports in surrey.
I am also quite sure that they had to show their passports at the camping registration. That is usual. If they had shown their british there, police would not search these passports in surrey. They showed their UNLPs there because police certainly interviewed the camping managers.
Conclusion: they had and they used UNLPs, and police knows this, otherwise they would not search for british passports in surrey.
Plain logic explains a lot or else helps to uncover stupid lies.
Tim V @ 26 Oct, 2013 – 7:18 pm
“… ZAH was WAS arrested? So clearly there WAS prima face evidence …”
Not necessarily.
Police bail in the UK appears to be abused by the police in some cases (to make life awkward for those they “think” are villains when they do not have sufficient evidence to bring a proper trial) because (as I understand it) the police just need to arrest the person and say “we suspect this person” and they can then bail that person (and impose conditions to make their life awkward) without having to bring charges and present proper evidence before a court.
There appears to be no limit to the number of times they can renew the bail, so the person can end up “bailed” indefinitely without evidence of their supposed wrongdoing being presented to a court. <== this bit is the abuse of the system by the police
I did post references here some months ago (long lost in the depths of this thread!), but here are a couple a very quick search turned up:
1) http://www.lawgazette.co.uk/62253.article
2) http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/may/28/britain-police-charge-without-bail
So I would suggest the UK police do not have any proper evidence, otherwise they would have charged ZAH by now and brought him before a court.
To me it appears poor Mr ZAH is a convenient scapegoat.
http://www.expatica.com/fr/news/french-news/passports-of-two-victims-in-french-alps-murder-missing-prosecutor_276933.html
Katie
Here it is.
Tim posted that link a few days ago.
Quote
“It only adds to the complexity of the investigation,” Maillaud said, adding that surprisingly, Saad al-Hilli had ID papers on him belonging to his late father
Now lets do logic:
They found the swedish passport of mrs al allaf and the iraqi passport of late mr kadhim al hilli.
Now we can make a conspiracy about why saad had his late father’s iraqi passport?
It must be for some sort of confirmation, either for the bank or for a swiss notary or for the UNO UNLP application or for the re-application for iraqi citizenship.
For sure there must have been a pre planned event in geneve for what iqbal did need her mother with legitimation and saad would need his father’s papers for legitimation.
What kind of event was that in geneve?
Give me an answer and we possibly know why they were killed.
Re the above important find:
Banks or deposit boxes
There are bank accounts and deposit boxes in banks that need IDs to conform that the owners are authorized to sign. Some deposit boxes require several IDs for access.
E.g. you may only access the deposit box when both owners present their IDs.
If one owner died then you need a Swiss notary to confirm the inheritance. The british or tge iraqi inheritance papers are insufficient for the swiss bank.
In examining the question of UN passports in the car, it would be useful to examine what would happen, if the UN got to know [for example via an email from Bluebird] that their passports are involved in this case?
If confirmed, surely it would take this case to a whole new level? Or are UN passports so abundant in the world that it is really not noteworthy if some have been found in a murder case like this?
http://www.bankingombudsman.ch
Inheritance Law and Probate in Switzerland
Richard Gassmann Partner, Baker & McKenzie Zurich March 6, 2013
Overview –International Succession –Forced Heirship –Intestacy –Alternative Approaches –Administration of Estates
Trends Towards Increasing Complexity –Increasing cross-border investments –More foreign marriages –Immigration/emigration may change nationality, residence or domicile
Succession to Estate Assets –Importance of connecting factor –Domicile –Nationality –Residence –Scission or unitary succession –Renvoi and conflict of laws issues
Jurisdiction –Swiss court/authorities have jurisdiction over the estate if; –deceased had last residence in Switzerland; or –deceased was non-resident Swiss national and –no foreign authorities deal with the assets, or –deceased opted for Swiss jurisdiction or for the application of Swiss law –assets are in Switzerland and no foreign authorities deal with them
Law Applicable to the Estate –Estate of deceased with last residence in Switzerland is governed by Swiss inheritance law; –Estate of deceased with last residence abroad is governed by the law as determined by the conflict rules of the place of last residence of the deceased –but –Swiss nationals with foreign residence can submit their estate to Swiss law –Foreign nationals with Swiss residence can submit their estate to the laws of their origin.
Case Study 1 (Swiss Perspective) Russian national Alex with residence in Switzerland dies in a car accident in France without leaving a will. He leaves a young second wife, one minor child from the second marriage, two grown-up children from the first marriage, and a father in bad health, who had regularly been supported financially by Alex. The estate consists of real estate, art and other movables and a bank account and a portfolio of shares in a Swiss bank. Who has what claims?
Case Study 1 (Swiss Perspective) Variations: a)Alex is a UK rather than a Russian national. b)Real estate is located in the UK, France and the US. c)The bank accounts are in Liechtenstein and the shares in Luxembourg and none have been declared. d)The grown-up children are able to establish that Alex is not the biological father of the minor child.
Points to Consider –Which court has jurisdiction to deal with estate matters? –Which law will such court apply to the estate? –What rules does the law governing the estate provided for with regard to individual entitlements to the estate?
Spot on Bleb.
Zaid’s arrest was done on pressure from the French & purely on suspicion planted by the French about the feud between him & his brother.
In other words they simply went through the motions.
We must not forget Zaid himself went straight to the police on hearing the news of the crime. I suggest one reason he did so , was to ask for protection……..he wouldn’t do that if he were guilty surely ?
BB.
We will have to agree to disagree.
To me ID papers do not mean Passport, I’d say that is more like a birth certificate,property transaction deeds/contract,something legal,even a utility bill ,driving licence, etc.
I also understand a new UNLP is for ‘official missions only’ & ‘would not include dependents.’
So in the unlikely event he used one to get into France Igbal & the children would still need passports to get out & back into the UK.
Saad was small fry not an international figure…nor did he travel a great deal so why would he want such a thing in the past ?
Yes I agree he could have been thinking of changing his lifestyle so applied for the new eUNLP ,the date there iIS significant……but still we have the ‘dependent problem.
My Avatar has disappeared again !
BB, in France you cannot even go to the PO to collect a parcel with just the slip left by the postman, a PP ,driving licence or ID card is also necessary. French bureaucracy is renown !
I think i have something!!!!
Geneve was FULL of Iraqis who did HATE each other in the time
from August 31st 2012 to September 19 2012.
They even started to FIGHT each other during their UN conference in geneve so thst UN police had to stop their fights.
On 19 September 2012, a conference was organised in Geneva by the current Iraqi authorities. This conference would reveal what the organisers called the ‘crimes of the former regime’’. There was a widespread national and international campaign to seek support for this conference. Unfortunately for them and unexpectedly, the conference turned out to be a total failure. The support they were seeking turned into a strong condemnation of the crimes against humanity, committed by the Anglo-American occupiers and their Iraqi allies.
Boycott and Chaos at the United Nations in Geneva: Who Committed War Crimes in Iraq?
The Under Secretary of the Iraqi Ministry of Human Rights, along with a large delegation was sent to Geneva 20 days prior to the conference.
The conference turned out to be a real disaster. At the beginning, the Al Maliki delegates and the Barzani ones got engaged in arguments and claims as to who was heading the conference and whose initiative it was.
The arguments among the Iraqi delegates continued, stronger words were used, and finally the United Nations police was forced to intervene and urged the attendees to leave the hall. The lights were shut off when the delegates (among them the ministers) ignored the order. They had to leave eventually. The conference failed despite of the claims from the government that it was a success. Worse than that, their press conference was as shameful as the conference was.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/boycott-and-chaos-at-the-united-nations-in-geneva-who-committed-war-crimes
That would be hilarious if it wasn’t over something so tragic,BB.
Is it possible to find a list of all those who attended ?
B-R-E-A-K-I-N-G
I’ve now watched half of it,- I must say ‘m very impressed by this classy BBC production. They’ve even hired in an exact replica of the car. And Brett Martin seems very genuine and honest, as I’ve always thought. And its the first time I see Iqbal. She was very young. And we see the passports of Kadhim and an image of Saad’s mother.
I didn’t know that the weapon was more than a 100 years old. A precision work – like a Swiss watch, with no screws in it. They talk about it being loaded 3 times – in order to fire 21 shots in 20-30 seconds – but remember that the Israeli assassin could have used an amended cartridge that could hold perhaps 30 bullits
Sorenson, you have no idea it was an Israeli assassin , I suggest you take more care with your blatant anti semitism.
I shall watch the film again,but something else I was thinking about during the stormy night we’ve had here.
That injury inflicted on Zainab….I can’t help feeling she was one of the first to be shot & hit, if not she would have been fit & well watching her father try to escape, she would have seen her mother ,father & grandmother killed & Mollier.
No child would watch all that without screaming continuously……….yet no one heard any screaming.
Where did the theory of the attacker running out of bullets, inferring she was the last target, come from ?
I suggest she was knocked unconscious & already on the ground when Saad ran to the car,this would explain why she also said ‘only one bad man’.
If she were attacked at the start then she would not see anyone else.
BB.
Kadhims Passport shown is British.
Where was the conference held exactly I will email or phone them tomorrow, I’ll act like a journo and say I’m doing a peice on the rebuilding of Iraq and the obsticles faced!