The mainstream media for the most part has moved on. But there are a few more gleanings to be had, of perhaps the most interesting comes from the Daily Mirror, which labels al-Hilli an extremist on the grounds that he was against the war in Iraq, disapproved of the behaviour of Israel and had doubts over 9/11 – which makes a great deal of the population “extremist”. But the Mirror has the only mainstream mention I can find of the possibility that Mossad carried out the killings. Given Mr al-Hilli’s profession, the fact he is a Shia, the fact he had visited Iran, and the fact that Israel heas been assassinating scientists connected to Iran’s nuclear programme, this has to be a possibility. There are of course other possibilities, but to ignore that one is ludicrous.
Which leads me to the argument of Daily Mail crime reporter, Stephen Wright, that the French police should concentrate on the idea that this was a killing by a random Alpine madman or racist bigot. Perfectly possible, of course, and the anti-Muslim killings in Marseille might be as much a precedent as Mossad killings of scientists. But why the lone madman idea should be the preferred investigation, Mr Wright does not explain. What I did find interesting from a man who has visited many crime scenes are his repeated insinuations that the French authorities are not really trying very hard to find who the killers were, for example:
the crime scene would have been sealed off for a minimum of seven to ten days, to allow detailed forensic searches for DNA, fibres, tyre marks and shoe prints to take place.
Nearby bushes and vegetation would have been searched for any discarded food and cigarette butts left by the killer, not to mention the murder weapon.
But from what I saw at the end of last week, no such searches had taken place and potentially vital evidence could have been missed. House to house inquiries in the local area had yet to be completed and police had not made specific public appeals for information about the crime. No reward had been put up for information about the shootings.
Behind the scenes, what other short cuts have been taken? Have police seized data identifying all mobile phones being used in the vicinity of the murders that day?
The idea that the French authorities – who are quite as capable as any other of solving cases – are not really trying very hard is an interesting one.
Which leads me to this part of a remarkable article from the Daily Telegraph, which if true points us back towards a hit squad and discounts the ides that there was only one gun:
Claims that only one gun was used to kill everybody is likely to be disproved by full ballistics test results which are out in October.
While the 25 spent bullet cartridges found at the scene are all of the same kind, they could in fact have come from a number of weapons of the same make.
This throws up the possibility of a well-equipped, highly-trained gang circling the car and then opening fire.
Both children were left alive by the killers, who had clinically pumped bullets into everybody else, including five into Mr Mollier.
Zainab was found staggering around outside the car by Brett Martin, a British former RAF serviceman who cycled by moments after the attack, but he saw nobody except the schoolgirl.
Her sister, Zeena, was found unscathed and hiding in the car eight hours later.
Both sisters are now back in Britain, and are believed to have been reunited at a secret location near London.
There are of course a number of hit squad options, both governmental and private, which might well involve iraqi or Iranian interests – on both of which the mainstream media have been very happy to speculate while almost unanimously ignoring Israel.
But what interests me is why the Daily Telegraph choose, in the face of all the evidence, to minimise the horrific nature of the attack by stating that “Both children were left alive by the killers”? Zainab was not left alive by design, she was shot in the chest and her skull was stove in, which presumably was a pretty serious attempt to kill a seven year-old child. The other girl might very well have succeeded in hiding from the killers under her mother’s skirts, as she hid from the first rescuers, and then for eight hours from the police.
The Telegraph article claims to be informed by sources close to the investigation. So they believe it was a group of people, and feel motivated to absolve those people from child-killing. Now what could the Daily Telegraph be thinking?
Q
27 Feb, 2014 – 3:59 pm another case of the “right hand not knowing what the left hand was doing” on many level! Two bullets in the head in a suicide is always a touch suspicious for rather obvious reasons. (You will recall a similar with James Andanson in the Diana case to name just one) A dislocated left should but gun and bullet wounds on RHS might suggest some okie pokie don’t you think?
Q
27 Feb, 2014 – 5:18 pm many “horse” connotations were discussed early on Q including that particular apocalypse one. Sorry if you were around at the time and aware.
I went back to that critical location in the story of the fleeing vehicles and Sylvie Lecoeur. Naturally, I wanted to see if the shady men and sketchy vehicles were still there. They are not. The funky custom van has disappeared. In its place, this vehicle:
https://maps.google.ca/maps?q=Mairie,+Chevaline,+France&hl=en&ll=45.762374,6.220322&spn=0.044669,0.122223&sll=45.766086,6.251221&sspn=0.178665,0.488892&oq=mairie+de+Chevaline,+France&t=h&hq=Mairie,&hnear=Chevaline,+Haute-Savoie,+Rhone-Alpes,+France&fll=45.761775,6.176376&fspn=0.04467,0.122223&z=13&layer=c&cbll=45.76239,6.220001&panoid=KvXptzLFYR-lS5jIyBkl4g&cbp=12,331.67,,2,4.58
Strange thing: I wish I’d copied its licence plate, which was not blocked out when I first checked.
5214 ZN 74: Dark vehicle that looks like a 4X4. Not familiar with this vehicle.
Like those Katie
27 Feb, 2014 – 5:48 pm??? They look decidedly “bought” to me. Red and white also have some decidedly English connotations as you’re no doubt aware.
From WIKI: “The Wars of the Roses were a series of dynastic wars fought between supporters of two rival branches of the royal House of Plantagenet—the houses of Lancaster and York—for the throne of England. They were fought in several sporadic episodes between 1455 and 1487, although there was related fighting both before and after this period. They resulted from the social and financial troubles following the Hundred Years’ War. The name “Wars of the Roses” refers to the Heraldic badges associated with the two royal houses, the White Rose of York and the Red Rose of Lancaster. Wars of the Roses came into common use in the nineteenth century after the publication of Anne of Geierstein by Sir Walter Scott.[1][2] Scott based the name on a scene in William Shakespeare’s play Henry VI Part 1, set in the gardens of the Temple Church, where a number of noblemen and a lawyer pick red or white roses to show their loyalty to the Lancastrian or Yorkist faction respectively.”
A very Dan Brownism might suggest if you converted the years (1455 and 1487) into twenty four hour clock you might almost get 2.55 and 3.27 – i.e. the times SAH arrived and “departed” Martinet!!!!
@Tim V: I am returning to some of the ideas discussed long ago, because I was not aware of anyone discussing the Knights of Malta in connection with the family of Jean de Pingon, descendant of the historical knight, and co-founder of the Ligue Savoisienne.
It is this connection I wish to bring to the forefront. We did not know at that time that the Ligue savoisienne had ceased operations in October 2012, nor did we realize that its leader Patrice Abeille would die of in July 2013. (Strangely, he was supposed to be meeting his family for a holiday — a recurring theme.)
There has been discussion of left and right, but those lines are blurry.
Perspective lends a different view.
“Patrice Abeille would die of natural causes…”
Q @ https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.76239,6.220001,3a,15y,333.46h,82.58t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sKvXptzLFYR-lS5jIyBkl4g!2e0?hl=en
note vehicle in the municipal car park now. green jeep cherokee if i’m not mistaken registration number 5214 ZN 74 complete with search light and radio aerial in the front. looks like an ONF vehicle to me. also note tyre width!
Correct me if I am wrong, but I don’t recall anyone mentioning the de Pingon family in connection with the construction industry.
Here is one patent:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5195863.html
There are more:
http://www.patentbuddy.com/Inventor/De-Pingon-Pierre-J/8890523
Jean de Pingon’s work is referenced here:
http://www.thefullwiki.org/Italian_Savoyards
Absolutely Q
27 Feb, 2014 – 8:30 pm please carry on. My rider was really just there to offset any offence you might take if you thought i was stating the obvious or insulting your intelligence so to speak. Its a quite valid point your making. Always interesting to follow and you may be on to something.
@Tim V 8:56 pm: Imagine that! First a white Peugeot on that property, now this.
Stepping back in time to 31 Jan 2013,5:31 pm:
So Sylvie lives at the house next door to the “mairie Chevaline” on Google Maps? She lives in the one that cannot be accessed with the nosy little Google man? The one that shows white vehicles parked on it from the far-away view?
So she would have driven past the “mairie Chevaline” with its Peugeot 206 every day, and not have been able to recognize a Peugeot 206? When she rode her bicycle/car, passing by, with it parked there, she wouldn’t have recognized one?
Nothing is as it appears to be on first glance.
Has anyone learned the name of the company that employed Jean-Luc Falcy?
Meanwhile, do you suppose a company like this one would employ mechanical engineers:
http://www.mecalac.com/fr/le-groupe.html
There are some lovely flowers growing in the yard of the “mairie Chevaline”, roses, I believe:
https://www.google.ca/maps?ll=45.762372,6.220257&spn=0.164306,0.488892&cbll=45.762372,6.220257&layer=c&panoid=tioQF_TPKeEcDTqY13vkYw&cbp=12,326.51,,1,-4.82&t=m&z=11
Meanwhile, a little white car can be seen at the house next door.
https://www.google.ca/maps?ll=45.762452,6.220589&spn=0.178677,0.488892&cbll=45.762452,6.220589&layer=c&panoid=CSvTEeqphrMpaRlFesB-kg&cbp=12,32.25,,1,11.19&t=m&z=11
The little Google man is not afraid to walk down that street now.
The place formerly labelled “marie chevaline” on Google Maps is now labelled this:
http://www.yelp.com/biz/domenge-chenal-claude-et-martin-gilles-chevaline
http://www.guide-forestier.com/domenge-chenal-claude/
Zoom out further and it’s this:
Sarl John Rivollet Transport
Chef Lieu
http://www.french-corporate.com/french-corporate/348/606/872/348606872-RIVOLLET-JOHN-LOUIS.php
74210 Chevaline, France
Taking off on a tangent here but back to the cover-up story board. I think we all agree – including people like Max and many others who were on MZT that, as Q says, nothing about the murder scene, the prior movements and the aftermath, are as they seem. Statements change, important details keep being rearranged (number of bullets is just one little example), french police statements are inconsistent from one time to another, and certainly no serious attempt has been made to add any transparency to this case from the investigating authorities side.
A case in point – this article from back in Septemeber 2013, summarizing EM’s press conference.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/06/french-alps-shooting-victim-recording-brother
Nothing new revealed here but I’d like to draw attention to the story line from the french side, which has been the one, and perhaps only, consistent thread throughout. If, as we suspect, EM and the French police are, for whatever reason, keen on shelving this case (as in “not solving” it), then what their statements and comments reveal is not what actually happened or where they are in the investigation, but what they are keen on what should NOT be considered, directions they steadfastedly refuse to take and evidence that wish to deflect attention from (as in “shoving under the carpet”). If we look at it this way, it may be interesting to keep a list of all the directions, evidentiary material and scenarios that the french side of the investigation is keen on suppressing, deflecting or refusing to consider for no obvious reason.
Using this article as just a short stepping point, I have so far the following:
1. Deflecting any speculation about Sylvain Molier being the target in any way, shape or form. This comes with pinning the blame somehow on the UK side, concentrating on family feud as motive. Though possibly, as this article reveals they may be willing to consider “industrial espionage” on Saad’s part, yet interestingly, never on SM’s part.
2. One gunman: this relies on Zainab’s supposed testimony but we only have EM’s word on that. No corroboration. No clarification either – such as – one gunman but also another car? a motorcycle? there’s reluctance on elaborating on this conjecture, due to Zainab being too traumatized. The only other information we have supposedly from Zainab, again given only from the french side, is that the shots started “right away” or “as soon as they arrived”.
3. No other car in the lay-by or on the way there or back, other than the “forestry vehicle” seen by WBM coming down. yes, they were looking for a MC but not very hard, it’d seem. I think that for some reason, it is really important to the french that any other car seen or heard around the martinet, such as a certain mysterious grey X5 (which they sometimes refer to as ‘dark colored”?) be expunged or, at least, “fogged up”.
4. No specific reference to the time the shots were heard and the killings were supposed to have been committed. We heard things like 3:30PM, 3;235Pm and 3:40PM but nothing very specific, and we never get it directly from the “horse’s mouth”. rather what timings presented are more often than not, coming from reporters who are surmising, going on some extra information they were given or some tip from the “inside”. Those timings seem to “move” as the story changes. In the panorama program they shooting time was pinned as 3:40PM, curiously enough.
5. The number of bullets has been a moving target, as Tim V has pointed out several times.
6. There was no reliable DNA anywhere to be found (funny how later they manage to exclude ED based on – you guessed it – DNA evidence!).
There are many other points that can be added to this list, but looking just at these 6, this is what emerges as essential to the cover-up:
* There must not be another vehicle in the lay-by
* There must not be any hint of pre-arranged meeting – either with SM or a third part.
* Consistent with the above, it is essential that SAH not be seen as arriving early at the car park and waiting around.
* There can be no allusion to SM being the target. No way, no how.
* There cannot be another party involved in the shooting, whether active or passive.
* There cannot be a definitive answer to the number of bullets, their locations (double tap etc.) or for that matter, the nature of Zainab’s injuries.
* There can be no DNA evidence to support anything, but the non-existent DNA can be used to exclude something (or someone).
There are other negatives I’m sure, but just looking at these 6 points, an outline of “something” begins to emerge, as if out of a fog. That is if we look at it as that which “must not be seen as part of what happened”.
Would be nice if others could add to or make corrections to the list above.
Eric speaks:
http://www.canalplus.fr/c-infos-documentaires/pid3847-c-la-nouvelle-edition.html?vid=1028041
But in French, darn. can anyone provide a bit of a transcript? my French really not good enough to get the details other than the obvious – that Eric is upset.
There’s a clip with EM who seems to be talking about the pictures of the murder scene released on video and DM. He too seems upset, as i’d expect him to be. But that’s all i got out of it.
For that video – credit goes to Shadwell on max’s deadzone61 site. Not fair! they speak French and we don’t. Could that be the underlying reason we are off on different pistes?
http://www.francetvinfo.fr/faits-divers/meurtres/tuerie-de-chevaline/tuerie-de-chevaline-ils-ont-detruit-ma-famille-denonce-l-ancien-suspect_540875.html
Thank you, Marlin, for bringing this to our attention.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_B%C3%A9r%C3%A9govoy
Another “suicide” back in the day, two bullets to the head.
@Marlin: Ownership of the news media is something to consider in all this, as it was in Mitterand’s day.
Eric Maillaud is not happy with the release of the crime scene photo of Sylvain Mollier, and one journalist in particular. How did they get this photo? Was it leaked, taken by a media helicopter, or UAV?
As to Eric D., he mentioned his grandmother in a retirement home. I’ve read about Sylvain Mollier’s mother being in a retirement home, too. Same one?
Your outline of what we’re not supposed to believe is very helpful.
What is with the double taps and shoulder injuries that are another recurring theme (Francois de Grossouvre)?
Restraint techniques from 1958:
http://ejmas.com/jnc/jncart_airpolice_0701.htm
Newer restraint techniques:
http://www.grapplearts.com/Blog/2012/04/the-ten-brazilian-jiu-jitsu-moves-every-cop-should-know/
There is always a risk of injury from these techniques.
Q.
Re: those roses, they are definitely not from the garden you have found.
A closer look tells me they are cultivated flowers, the light colour & health of the leaves,the length of the stalks & quantity indicates that.
So,because they are not in the cellophane normally used to wrap flowers when bought,I wonder if they were a bouquet sent to someone who then took them from the vase to leave at this spot ?
From all that, they surely must have been left by someone who felt deeply about these deaths ?
Can we assume this was the house Fillion was working on? It appears new and there is a RHD car parked outside and I think he said the owners were British. Of course I could be quite wrong on this one but it is virtually the last house and “pinch point” before the Combe proper.
https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.761233,6.22111,3a,75y,180h,85.45t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sdcDlmW75qj6ReBDckbqcRA!2e0
Marlin
27 Feb, 2014 – 8:58 am I always enjoy your assessments (and speculation) which never appears to stray far from my own. Recent (Jul. 9, 2013) Snowden revelations have confirmed what we already “knew” that the US worked hand in glove with Israel on the Suxnet virus that infected and disabled a thousand Iranian centrifuges.
“He also was asked, “Did the NSA help to create Stuxnet?” Snowden responded, “NSA and Israel co-wrote it.”
Stuxnet in 2010 wrought havoc on equipment at Iran’s Natanz nuclear plant and complicated the manufacture of highly enriched uranium, which the West suspects is intended for making atomic weapons. The virus temporarily disabled 1,000 centrifuges being used by the Iranians to enrich uranium.”
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.534728
WIKI gives this “Stuxnet is a computer virus that was discovered in June 2010. It was designed to attack Siemens Step7 software running on a Windows operating system.[1] Stuxnet almost ruined one-fifth of the Iranian nuclear centrifuge by spinning out of control while simultaneously replaying the recorded system values which shows the normal functioning centrifuge during the attack”
“The Associated Press reported that the semi-official Iranian Students News Agency released a statement on 24 September 2010 stating that experts from the Atomic Energy Organization of Iran met in the previous week to discuss how Stuxnet could be removed from their systems.”
“On 29 November 2010, Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad stated for the first time that a computer virus had caused problems with the controller handling the centrifuges at its Natanz facilities. According to Reuters he told reporters at a news conference in Tehran, “They succeeded in creating problems for a limited number of our centrifuges with the software they had installed in electronic parts.”
“On the same day two Iranian nuclear scientists were targeted in separate, but nearly simultaneous car bomb attacks near Shahid Beheshti University in Tehran. Majid Shahriari, a quantum physicist was killed. Fereydoon Abbasi, a high-ranking official at the Ministry of Defense was seriously wounded. Wired speculated that the assassinations could indicate that whoever was behind Stuxnet felt that it was not sufficient to stop the nuclear program.[96] In January 2010, another Iranian nuclear scientist, a physics professor at Tehran University, had been killed in a similar bomb explosion.[96] On 11 January 2012, a Director of the Natanz nuclear enrichment facility, Mostafa Ahmadi Roshan, was killed in an attack quite similar to the one that killed Shahriari.”
“Some have also referred to several clues in the code such as a concealed reference to the word “MYRTUS”, believed to refer to the Myrtle tree, or Hadassah in Hebrew. Hadassah was the birth name of the former Jewish queen of Persia, Queen Esther.[114][115] However, it may be that the “MYRTUS” reference is simply a misinterpreted reference to SCADA components known as RTUs (Remote Terminal Units) and that this reference is actually “My RTUs”–a management feature of SCADA.[116] Also, the number 19790509 appears once in the code and might refer to the date “1979 May 09”, the day Habib Elghanian, a Persian Jew, was executed in Tehran.[46][117][118] Another date that appears in the code is “24 September 2007″, the day that Iran’s president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad spoke at Columbia University and made comments questioning the validity of the Holocaust.”
OK so all this fits on several levels. First note the symbolic messaging written into the plan just as we have noted at Chevaline. Those with their feet so firmly rooted in the past, just cannot resist it. Then check out the timing. The Suxnet virus becomes PUBLIC in June 2010. Zygier was arrested in February/March of that year and died at the end of it after the story got out. Have just searched “Zygier/Suxnet” and found ppl much more knowledgeable than me have come up with the same idea. See: http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2013/02/14/ben-zygier-dead-mossad-agent-arrested-for-compromising-covert-iran-operation-and-dubai-assassination/
The Dubai killing may be interwoven in this way “Frenkel also raises another important fact: Israel informed Australian intelligence it had arrested Zygier eight days after the Dubai police informed the world it knew the twenty-seven Mossad agents who organized the assassination of Mahmoud al-Mabouh. She believes the arrest was related to this disastrous outcome for the Mossad. Either Zygier had mistakenly compromised the identities of the agents through an inadvertent error. Or more darkly, perhaps Zygier was stricken with conscience over the fact that his acts of passport fraud (in obtaining Australian passports four different times under different assumed names) was exploited to murder another human being.
This development may or may not have been facilitated by those contacts Zygier had with Australian intelligence. Knowing Australian-issued passports had aided in the murder, the intelligence agency would’ve desperately wanted to know how that happened, who did it, and why. If they found out from Zygier, it’s entirely possible they shared this information with Dubai. Or perhaps the other way around, the Dubai police may’ve shared this information with Australian intelligence, which may’ve led them to Zygier.”
Finally Suxnet is a Trojan (Horse) which also fits pretty well with Chevaline as we discussed way back, but made even more poignant if tied in with the Zygier incident.
Marlin
27 Feb, 2014 – 10:01 p
List of (mis)-directions
Bret Martin is not, nor ever could have been a suspect despite being 1st found at the scene, and admitting interfering with the crime scene in various ways. Instead, he is to be allowed to quickly leave the country and hailed as an Ex RAF hero, despite all of the above and that the RAF is at least two career stops prior to the present.
This leads to his narrative being accepted as the basic road map of the event, despite significant subsequent problems with his timeline and his story since twisting and turning.
TimV finds it hard to proceed without accepting most of BM’s story because consequently we would have very little to go on but I think it is quite possible that most of his story is fiction.
@Marlin – re: Your an outline of “something” begins to emerge, as if out of a fog
Thanks for that post, a good way of looking at things.
I’m not sure about your point 6. regarding DNA evidence:
I think it has been reported that there was no DNA/fingerprint evidence on the cartridge cases (suggesting deliberate precautions when loading the clips) but has EM ever said there was no DNA evidence at the scene?
There must be plenty of DNA and other forensic evidence at the crime scene. If none of this matched ED and there was no other evidence apart from his mobile being in the general area at the time and ED had a plausible explanation for that, I can’t see how the police could continue to hold ED. Not so much ED being “excluded” as just a lack of evidence.
So on this point I think you are being unfair.
Intp1
So do I. Few seemed to have picked up on the order of actions taken by Brett Martin.
Would anyone deal with the child lying by a car whose engine was running. Surely the first action would be to alert the driver to prevent the car moving forward ?
He had no idea it couldn’t move.
Frankly it seems to me, he acted as though he knewthe driver was dead & the car unlikely to move…hence attending to Zainab first.
re: timing of “last photo of AH family”
Although the “timing by shadow” method and explanations over at deadzone look impressive (and I admit I don’t fully understand)
1) Fitting the evidence to the result?
I get the impression that they are trying to make the evidence fit the result. At one stage someone arrives at a time of 15:17 London time (ie 16:17 French time) only to make “adjustments” to get the time back to 15:17 (French).
2) Spurious accuracy?
Surely any timing by this method must carry a degree of error and thus should be quoted as hh:mm +-error margin (probably measured in minutes?)
3) Closed mindset?
Dismissal of suggestions that the photo might have been taken another day as belonging only to those believing in shape shifting lizards (I paraphrase this bit, but the association was made)
Maybe I’m being unfair and non appreciative but I do not buy into this super accurate timing for the photo.
If I’m not mistaken you have a professional eye and pretty on the ball? I accept your observation about my approach except with the defence that over the months I have pointed out a myriad reservations over WBM’s story and part in the events of that day. I readily concede, indeed have been active in highlighting not only unreliability but contradictions and inevitable lies. In this can of worms its very difficult to distinguish fact from fiction.
In my head I have formed a sort of opinion on the credibility of the different “players”. Sadly, EM who should be the most reliable, is right at the bottom of my scale. So much so I don’t think ANYTHING he says can be taken at face value. As to WBM I don’t doubt his BASIC story. The devil is in the detail. I don’t believe he is as naive, innocent or heroic as he has been made out. I don’t think it is beyond the realms of possibility that in extremis he could handle a pistol but think its unlikely in this scenario. Didierjean/Bossy by virtue of name alone cannot be trusted although his basic story may be true. The ONF guy wheeled out by the BBC has to be deeply suspect despite Maillaud not challenging his account.
We have not heard from any of the first responders. Their lips have been effectively sealed. We have not had sight of the photos and video we were told was taken within the hour that would be conclusive as to a lot of details. I tend to rate Fillion highly, as with the witnesses to the time of the shooting and only slightly less for the escaping Peugeot. We haven’t heard anything to PD/B’s female companions or the OAP cyclist who was confirmed at the scene as well. The silence of the extended families and absence of photographs of victims is so unusual as to be suspicious.
sorry meant to include Intp1
28 Feb, 2014 – 12:12 pm on that one.