The mainstream media for the most part has moved on. But there are a few more gleanings to be had, of perhaps the most interesting comes from the Daily Mirror, which labels al-Hilli an extremist on the grounds that he was against the war in Iraq, disapproved of the behaviour of Israel and had doubts over 9/11 – which makes a great deal of the population “extremist”. But the Mirror has the only mainstream mention I can find of the possibility that Mossad carried out the killings. Given Mr al-Hilli’s profession, the fact he is a Shia, the fact he had visited Iran, and the fact that Israel heas been assassinating scientists connected to Iran’s nuclear programme, this has to be a possibility. There are of course other possibilities, but to ignore that one is ludicrous.
Which leads me to the argument of Daily Mail crime reporter, Stephen Wright, that the French police should concentrate on the idea that this was a killing by a random Alpine madman or racist bigot. Perfectly possible, of course, and the anti-Muslim killings in Marseille might be as much a precedent as Mossad killings of scientists. But why the lone madman idea should be the preferred investigation, Mr Wright does not explain. What I did find interesting from a man who has visited many crime scenes are his repeated insinuations that the French authorities are not really trying very hard to find who the killers were, for example:
the crime scene would have been sealed off for a minimum of seven to ten days, to allow detailed forensic searches for DNA, fibres, tyre marks and shoe prints to take place.
Nearby bushes and vegetation would have been searched for any discarded food and cigarette butts left by the killer, not to mention the murder weapon.
But from what I saw at the end of last week, no such searches had taken place and potentially vital evidence could have been missed. House to house inquiries in the local area had yet to be completed and police had not made specific public appeals for information about the crime. No reward had been put up for information about the shootings.
Behind the scenes, what other short cuts have been taken? Have police seized data identifying all mobile phones being used in the vicinity of the murders that day?
The idea that the French authorities – who are quite as capable as any other of solving cases – are not really trying very hard is an interesting one.
Which leads me to this part of a remarkable article from the Daily Telegraph, which if true points us back towards a hit squad and discounts the ides that there was only one gun:
Claims that only one gun was used to kill everybody is likely to be disproved by full ballistics test results which are out in October.
While the 25 spent bullet cartridges found at the scene are all of the same kind, they could in fact have come from a number of weapons of the same make.
This throws up the possibility of a well-equipped, highly-trained gang circling the car and then opening fire.
Both children were left alive by the killers, who had clinically pumped bullets into everybody else, including five into Mr Mollier.
Zainab was found staggering around outside the car by Brett Martin, a British former RAF serviceman who cycled by moments after the attack, but he saw nobody except the schoolgirl.
Her sister, Zeena, was found unscathed and hiding in the car eight hours later.
Both sisters are now back in Britain, and are believed to have been reunited at a secret location near London.
There are of course a number of hit squad options, both governmental and private, which might well involve iraqi or Iranian interests – on both of which the mainstream media have been very happy to speculate while almost unanimously ignoring Israel.
But what interests me is why the Daily Telegraph choose, in the face of all the evidence, to minimise the horrific nature of the attack by stating that “Both children were left alive by the killers”? Zainab was not left alive by design, she was shot in the chest and her skull was stove in, which presumably was a pretty serious attempt to kill a seven year-old child. The other girl might very well have succeeded in hiding from the killers under her mother’s skirts, as she hid from the first rescuers, and then for eight hours from the police.
The Telegraph article claims to be informed by sources close to the investigation. So they believe it was a group of people, and feel motivated to absolve those people from child-killing. Now what could the Daily Telegraph be thinking?
https://www.facebook.com/najibrazak/posts/10151938301110952
Statement by the Malaysian PM. I’m not suggesting he is part of a cover-up but I would point out a common factor to all known such, namely the inverse proportionality between EFFORT and RESULTS. The principle is you have to impress with satistics – in this case the number of ships, planes and nations involved in the search. I am sure I don’t need to remind you of other notable examples including Chevaline where we had emphasis on number of interviews, number of documents, number of countries but significantly no DETAILS no RESULTS.
Then the obligatory Fall Guy. Someone has to be blamed to divert attention. Again I’m sure I don’t have to reel them all off. Chevaline: first “the lone madman”. When that didn’t stick it morphed into the lone motor cyclist. Now that doesn’t work either. Problems! In the case of MH370 we have the Pilot. First the Australian women’s stories of irregular stuff – smoking in the “cockpit” (yep well noted BB, NR or Q – sorry I can’t remember which – “the devil is definitely in the detail isn’t it?) chatting the women up etc. Now all the news agencies carry the story his home is being searched. Again shades of Chevaline.
Finally a little aside to the Pistorius trial http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/13/world/africa/oscar-pistorius-trial/ and particularly the injury evidence. A 9 mm bullet in this case. Details of bullets and injuries. One shattered on impact with femur. I realise this is trial, but what prevents transparency and revelation in the Chevaline case? It would certainly lay a lot of ghosts to rest.
I must catch up with all the posts now. Should take me to bed time although has to compete with “Page Eight” on 2.
Ha Ha Spot this.
“Release[edit]
The film had its world premiere on 18 June 2011 at the Edinburgh International Film Festival and closed the 36th Toronto International Film Festival on 17 September 2011.[4] It was broadcast on BBC Two and BBC HD on 28 August 2011 in the United Kingdom, and on PBS in the United States on 6 November 2011, as part of its Masterpiece Contemporary anthology series.[5] It was released on DVD and Blu-ray on 5 September 2013 by Universal Pictures.”
Note the date of Universal release. Co-incidence?
“Accolades[edit]
At the 2011 Satellite Awards, Page Eight was nominated for Best Miniseries or Motion Picture Made for Television. Bill Nighy and Rachel Weisz were nominated for Best Actor in a Miniseries or a Motion Picture Made for Television and Best Actress in a Miniseries or a Motion Picture Made for Television, respectively.[6]
Bill Nighy received a nomination for Best Actor – Miniseries or Television Film at the 2012 Golden Globe Awards.[7]
Martin Ruhe, Page Eight’s Director of Photography, won Outstanding Achievement in Cinematography in Motion Picture/Miniseries Television at the 26th American Society of Cinematographers Awards.[8]
Page Eight received a nomination nod for Best TV Movie at the 2012 Rose d’Or TV Festival.[9]
At the 2012 British Academy Television Awards, Page Eight was nominated for the Single Drama Award.[10]
Paul Englishby was nominated for Best Television Soundtrack at the 2012 Ivor Novello Awards.[11]
At the 2012 Critics’ Choice Television Awards, Page Eight was nominated for Best Made for TV Movie/Mini Series, while Bill Nighy was nominated for Best Actor.[12]
At the 2012 Primetime Emmy Awards, Judy Davis received a nomination nod in the category of Outstanding Supporting Actress in a Miniseries or Movie, while Paul Englishby won for Outstanding Original Main Title Theme Music.[13][14]”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Page_Eight
“Plot[edit]
Following on from the events of Page Eight, Johnny Worricker (Bill Nighy) is hiding out from his work at MI5 on the tax-exile Turks and Caicos Islands. Trouble comes knocking when an encounter with a CIA agent forces him into the company of some dubious American businessmen. The morning after their first encounter, one of them is found dead on the beach in suspicious circumstances, and the business group’s Financial PR, Melanie Fall (Winona Ryder), seems to know more about events surrounding the conflict than she is letting on.
With the remaining businessmen claiming to be on the islands for a conference, Worricker soon learns the extent of their shady activities. When links to prime minister Alec Beasley (Ralph Fiennes) come to light, Worricker must act quickly if he is to survive. He thinks the answer to resolving the situation may lie in an old girlfriend, a former MI5 analyst who is now a financial expert in London.[4]”
“Salting the Battlefield is a 2014 British drama television film, written and directed for the BBC by the British writer David Hare. It follows Page Eight, which aired on BBC Two in August 2011 and Turks & Caicos which aired in 2014.[1][2][3][4]”
Marlin
15 Mar, 2014 – 7:31 pm glad you liked it Marlin. A little hobby of mine. I came across the site totally by accident and they were kind enough to publish my initial Chevaline article since when I have done quite few more. I find the revolving world and the recent “hits” mesmerising!
I read yours and BB’s theory on disappearing plane with interest though I think its a bit early days to work out what’s happened other than we are in spook territory again. There may be gold there may not. there may be hi jack there may not. i don’t buy the defecting pilot or the hijack. he doesn’t seem the type and all planes have hi jack alarms at the press of a button. For the pilot not to initiate it there would have to be no warning at all. That Malaysia should publicly pick on the pilot is disloyal and staged i would say.
as with chevaline the problem is it is impossible to distinguish between fact and fiction. Did the plane get lost at all or is the whole thing contrived for some inscrutable reason? at the other extreme, was the pilot supplanted by an auto-pilot controlled from elsewhere? Although a different scenario, in the way it has been handled, there are many points of commonality with other high profile events which we have become familiar in recent years including Chevaline, that are highly suspicious.
A thought: what if our man from the Balkans is actually “Stan” from the “Stans”?
Typical. The blonde from the cockpit is now said to be South African. Previously, she was staying in Ben Zygier’ hometown of Melbourne for a year. Before that, she was Australian. Whatever. Do honeypots need a nationality? I’m not saying she is a honeypot. She could be anything, really.
It looks like Bluebird‘s “Two Iranian men on passports forged by an Iranian Jew in Thailand” , are now back in focus.
[my emphasis]
Was the [British based] Immersat statement on how it is possible to tell that a plane has flown for 7 hours [since it evaded radar] a [British] way of saying “No thanks” to play anymore Zionist ball?
@Tim V: “Quite agree. My little angle on our ability to trust any government these days is here:”
http://inquiringminds.cc/events-my-dear-boy-events-tim-veater
Thanks for that. Was not aware of some stories.
@Marlin: Word has come down. US, UK, and Chinese media are in maximum trash the Malaysians mode. Even if the Malaysian military withheld radar data, what difference does it make?
That doesn’t explain why other countries’ vaunted spy satellites and monitoring systems didn’t detect the plane, and if they did why those countries didn’t immediately release the info. Or are the systems all fake to extract money from taxpaying peons?
The Chinese lambast Malaysia, but diss the US too. Of course, they don’t mention their own failure to detect the plane. “As the leader of the international search and rescue mission, Malaysia bears inescapable responsibility. Other parties that possess valuable data and information, including plane maker Boeing, engine manufacturer Rolls-Royce and intelligence superpower the United States, should also have done a better job.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/indepth/2014-03/15/c_133188614.htm
To date, the only satellite data mentioned is the famous pings to the commercial Immersat satellite system, and now some “experts” are questioning whether that was really flight 370, since the pings apparently don’t contain identifying info, they’re only used to establish a data connection. The arcs outlining possible paths are based on radar not detecting any other aircraft in the position of the pings at the same time. Which raises the question — if radar detected the absence of planes, why didn’t it detect the presence of flight 370? Or I’ve totally misunderstood the logic behind this.
Rule #1 of air defence: The enemy only attacks when radars are on. Shades of Pearl Harbour. “The air defence network on the [Andaman and Nicobar Islands] would have in the normal course picked up an unidentified plane. However, sources pointed out the radars there are not always switched on.”
http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-others/hunt-for-mh370-nears-indian-coast/
@Q: “And now, a search of one pilot’s home, many days later. What will they find at this point? A stun gun? Better not say it, or it will appear.”
And browser history, indicating peeks at bondage web pages. The MSM is already painting him as a political radical, since he attended the trial of a pro-democracy activist only seven hours before the flight. They’ve already done the babes-in-the-cockpit bit; are there pole dancers in waiting?
On Freescale Semiconductor. Many theories on this, including patents, stock manipulation so Intel could buy it cheap, and someone claims, “It’s Jacob Rothschild through Blackstone who owns Freescale. Here is your motive for the missing Beijing plane.” That claim was disputed by others, who say it’s owned by the Carlyle Group, but no one says it’s owned by Bain Capital. Though if a Rothschild is involved there should be a Rockefeller as well, to provide Illuminati symmetry.
On remote command of aircraft. Suppose the intelligence community built in a backdoor to control planes? They’d be certain to lock the pilots out completely.
Daily Mail: “Tintin connection: In his comic book Flight 714, published in 1968, Belgian cartoonist Hergé penned a plot which resembles some aspects of the Malaysian mystery.” They print several of the relevant pages.
@Bluebird: In the Guardian’s comments, a reader inquires about the cargo of gold story, which others dismiss. I thought of linking there to your comments here, but remembered Craig disapproves of conspiracy theories. It best we toil here in the 12th sub-basement of Craig Murray’s blog in relative obscurity and unmolested. Otherwise we’ll attract the real loons from the “respectable” sections. The MSM acknowledges that gold and diamonds are often transported by that airline, and might provide motive, though there’s no mention of Ukrainian gold bullion.
The question is: How did the Israeli agents gain access to the cockpit? I assume nobody really knows what the lock consist of, and it is something that — for obvios reasons — really can’t be discussed, but somehow those Israeli must have had a master key.
QinetiQ, BEA, EADS, Thales and UK once again ….
http://www.wired.co.uk/magazine/archive/2014/01/features/remote-control-aeroplane
Parker service centers are located throughout the world, including nine in the U.S. plus Beijing, Dubai, Kuala Lumpur, Brazil, Singapore and Germany. Parker Aerospace also has three engineering centers in Asia, including one here in Shanghai, as well as in Japan and India. During 2012, parent company Parker Hannifin had net sales of more than $13 billion, and the aerospace division–which employs some 6,000 workers–was responsible for $2 billion of that revenue.
Modern electronic fly-by-wire flight controls are developed and manufactured at Parker’s Irvine Control Systems division, and AIN was recently given a tour through the fly-by-wire flight control systems integration laboratory and a briefing on flight control technology.
http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/abace-convention-news/2013-04-15/parker-aerospace-fly-wire-future
Sorensen
These days you dont need a cockpit nor do you need a pilot in the plane in order to fly a 777 savely. Why would you want to struggle taking over a cockpit if you could take over the whole flight remotely?
Quote:
The defence and acting transport minister, Hishammuddin Hussein, said on Sunday that 15 countries have been contacted for assistance, including China, Burma, Laos, Vietnam, Thailand, Indonesia, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Turkmenistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh and India. Assistance will include satellite data and analysis, ground-search capabilities, radar data, and maritime and air deployment, Hishammuddin tweeted.
Australia and France have also been asked for help
I could understand Australia But why France?????????
Reading the list of countries:
They didnt ask for help:
Afghanistan, Iran and Iraq
If an airplane could reach Kyrgistan, then it would easily fly to Afghanistan and Iran, too.
Side note:
No military of only one of these countries did ever send airforce to that plane?
Even in WW2 they were already able to see unidentified airplanes.
The 777 is no stealth bomber!
The military airforce in the whole world being blind is a thought beyond sanity.
Another interesting question is also if this 777 , which with full tanks can fly for 14½ hours, got more fuel onboard than was required for the 5,4 hours flight to Bejing (+ 2 hours spare). Particularly in a place like Malaysia, it should be relatively easy to bribe your way, so that the guy who is filling petrol, simply has his van parked there a little longer and fill it up.
AND, it is something that will be quite difficult for the authorities to find out – here more than a week later.
March 14, 2014 ““There is probably a significant likelihood” that the aircraft is now on the bottom of the Indian Ocean, a senior US official said, citing information Malaysia has shared with the United States.”
http://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/category/nation/2014/03/14/mh370-may-be-at-the-bottom-of-indian-ocean/
Why would the US specifically say the aircraft was on the bottom of the Indian Ocean? They must have unrevealed info to this effect. Otherwise they would have said an option was that the plane ditched at sea and there was a possibility of survivors.
Apparently the pings do not mean a plane is airborne, these pings can be sent from a plane sitting on the ground [ in a hangar ? ] as long as its hooked up to power.
Therefore I’d say searchers are now on a wild goose chase…that the plane was diverted yes but landed somewhere in the dark .
If it was taken by the Americans,it will be at Diego Garcia, relieved of its cargo & will shortly show up in pieces somewhere in the Indian ocean.
Odd how this base has not been mentioned much by the media & today the Indian Navy have suspended their search in the region.
Katie
Your theory could have become reality .
Quote
The thriller of disappeared Boeing 777 continue, as reportedly the Greek ship ” Elka Athina ‘ interests shipowner Karnezi(s) took position on the existence of objects at sea in the Straits of Malacca !Specifically , a few hours ago got a message from a coastal station of Indonesia with position : width 0551 length 09657.5 northern and eastern that found in suitcases belonging to passengers probably fatal flight of Malaysia Airlines.Captain of Elka Athina is Dimitris Zampelis and second officer Dimitris Karagiannis .
defencenet.gr
UK based Christos Karnezis is leading UK based Noble Clean Fuels who owns that oil ship. That company is part of the Noble Group.
I believe that it is very suspicious that a ship from the Noble Group is said to find “floating luggage” from passengers of that plane.
This is like the undamaged M.Atta passport found in front of the crashed WTC towers.
Just in case
http://www.markedskraft.com/Home/Our-services/Structured-products/
Belongs more properly at Ickes. “Tintin connection: In his comic book Flight 714…”
One half of 714 is 357 and 357 subtracted from 370 = 13 a notoriously unlucky number! (Can’t make 666 out of it short of differential calculus.)
The millennial generations’ New Viral Media (HuffPo, BuzzFeed, etc.) are hoping the missing aircraft story lasts another week, allowing them more, “9 Things You Need to Know” stories and a few more cents per click.
http://www.dailydot.com/lol/anonymous-twitter-exmediaman-gawker-buzzfeed-secrets/
Kenneth Sorensen
16 Mar, 2014 – 6:47 am An astute observation that might fit Kenneth. Watch “Page Eight” on I player. Sometimes fact is disguised in fiction. It was put on general release on the first anniversary of the Chevaline Massacre. It was first shown in 2011. The plot turns around a dying DG of MI5 being informed by an American source that the PM was fully cognizant of the rendition and torture programme in black sites and before he dies he passes it on to his side kick with all the political ramifications it entails. Intriguingly it includes the death of a Palestinian whilst in Israeli custody and the subsequent failure of the authorities to investigate the circumstances. It may or may not be relevant that the topic of Ben Zygier much discussed here who died at the tail end of 2010 influence this aspect of the story that by implication linked US and Israeli covert operations. I’m waiting to see what the two sequels up and coming have to say “between the lines”. There appears to be no info. available on the third of the trilogy.
I will stick with the trilogy for a moment because I don’t think we can dismiss some of the themes to what we discuss here, namely the covert actions of what are on the face of it close strategic and diplomatic partners, and the internal stresses and divisions in government itself, between agencies and factions.
The director is the much lauded David Hare (67) responsible for many provocative plays/films tackling sensitive public issues. “Stuff” dates from 2004 inspired by Rumsfeld’s quote: “”Stuff happens and it’s untidy, and freedom’s untidy, and free people are free to make mistakes and commit crimes and do bad things.” (April 11, 2003)
“The Vertical Hour” dates from 2006 and debates the Iraq invasion. “Gethsemane” dates from 2008 and reflects on “easily recognisable as incidents drawn from the lives of real politicians recently departed from office, the play illuminates the cynicism and expediency of a political party too long unchallenged in power.” WIKI
“The Power of Yes” from 2009 attempts an understanding of the financial crisis in the preceding year.
“The Wall: a monologue” is a book published in 2009. “OK, let’s go coolly into this, shall we? If I use one word or the other, forgive me, it does not imply I am partisan. I have acquaintances on both sides of the fence and on both sides of the wall. “I hate the wall,” say my Israeli friends. “I regret it.” “I’m ashamed of the wall.” “I drive for miles so that I don’t have to see it. But it works. 80 percent of terrorist attacks against Israel have stopped. Have been stopped. Am I not meant to be pleased about that?”OK, let’s go coolly into this, shall we? If I use one word or the other, forgive me, it does not imply I am partisan. I have acquaintances on both sides of the fence and on both sides of the wall. “I hate the wall,” say my Israeli friends. “I regret it.” “I’m ashamed of the wall.” “I drive for miles so that I don’t have to see it. But it works. 80 percent of terrorist attacks against Israel have stopped. Have been stopped. Am I not meant to be pleased about that?”
These and many more give us an idea where Hare is coming from.
Interestingly Hare who was knighted in 1998, and is described as “left wing” married Nicole Farhi sometime after 1991. WIKI gives the following information about Miss Farhi/Lady Hare.
“In 2007 she was appointed an honorary CBE, and in 2010 she was awarded the Légion d’honneur. She is a cousin of the writer and human rights campaigner Moris Farhi.
In February 2007, Farhi was a signatory to the declaration of the Independent Jewish Voices, a new Jewish network, calling for an open and critical debate on Israel and criticising certain Jewish organisations’ unconditional support of Israel.” WIKI.
“Independent Jewish Voices (IJV) is an organization launched on 5 February 2007 by 150 prominent British Jews such as Nobel laureate Harold Pinter, historian Eric Hobsbawm, lawyer Sir Geoffrey Bindman, Lady Ellen Dahrendorf, film director Mike Leigh, and actors Stephen Fry and Zoë Wanamaker. The organization is reportedly “born out of a frustration with the widespread misconception that the Jews of this country speak with one voice –– and that this voice supports the Israeli government’s policies.”[1] IJV stated it was founded “to represent British Jews … in response to a perceived pro-Israeli bias in existing Jewish bodies in the UK,” and, according to Hobsbawn, “as a counter-balance to the uncritical support for Israeli policies by established bodies such as the Board of Deputies of British Jews.”[2]”WIKI.
So we come full circle.
Good summary NR
16 Mar, 2014 – 8:24 am. Thanks for that.
Kenneth Sorensen
16 Mar, 2014 – 8:56 am but wasn’t that the point of the seeded dolly-bird story? “ONLY ON THE PREVIOUS FLIGHT” that louche Captain was allowing girls in for cocktails (geddit?) and cigarettes, thus very conveniently demonstrating the ease with which hi-jackers might have gained access?
The media manipulation sticks out like Boeing 777 (except planes since 9/11 don’t “stick out” any longer apparently).
At the risk of encouraging further OT posting:
“Rupert Murdoch tweets all kinds of crazy over flight MH370 disappearance”
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/mar/16/rupert-murdoch-tweets-conspiracy-theories-flight-mh370-disappearance
@NR – “It best we toil here in the 12th sub-basement of Craig Murray’s blog in relative obscurity and unmolested” Yes indeed – the “respectable section” seems to have gone mad.
Quite agree Bluebird
16 Mar, 2014 – 9:42 am. The world is being asked to believe the literally INCREDIBLE story that a combination of civil and military radar tracking cannot spot aircraft on unscheduled flight paths. If so all inhabitants of all countries should adopt a fatalistic approach to attack and ask for their taxes in back for the billions spent on such to provide “security” from air attack. How the American nation (two billion humans!) could swallow the trash of 9/11 and even promote the controllers of it, demonstrates only the mass stupidity of human kind and the total failure of so-called democratic systems of accountability. It proved, if proof were needed, that government can literally do ANYTHING, say ANYTHING, however ludicrous and get away with it. The old saying of the bigger the lie etc.
Tim V
16 Mar, 2014 – 2:51 pm
Thumbs up.
I agree with every word you’ve said in that statement.
NR
16 Mar, 2014 – 10:01 am “Bottom of the ocean” is another of those little semantic indicators a bit like “stuff happen” or “unknown unknowns”. These are transmitted as “off the cuff” remarks when in fact they are the product of specialists in the dark arts of public attitude manipulation. There is no chance that such a phrase would be used by a government spokesman without its relative merits and connotations being pored over and agreed.
So beyond bare words what meaning does the phrase convey? Well we are into realms of science fiction – “Forty Leagues Under the Sea” comes to mind. Jules Verne and all that jazz. It’s often helpful to introduce science fiction by association, or Hollywood, or television drama to blur the boundaries between fact and fantasy. It is a corollary to the frequent and generous use of the term “Conspiracy theory or theorist” to negate any hard scientific proposition or objection. Just as well say the person is mentally un-balanced. Indeed they do that as well when mere mockery fails to work.
The phrase also conveys the notion of finality. It is an equivalent of the policeman on the street. “Nothing to see. Move on”. Not only is it final, there is no chance of finding or recovering. “There will be no remnants. The passengers are all dead so give up hope. No one is going to find it. There is no answer. No solution. It will be a permanent mystery never resolved.” That is what the spokesman wants us to think and if its a government spokesman it is what the government, (the US government?) wants us to think.
Now when and if I get to that point alarm bells start to ring. The respective government no longer becomes an innocent philanthropic partner in a search, but a predictor of outcomes and manipulator of public attitudes as cover for much more sinister actions and motives.