The mainstream media for the most part has moved on. But there are a few more gleanings to be had, of perhaps the most interesting comes from the Daily Mirror, which labels al-Hilli an extremist on the grounds that he was against the war in Iraq, disapproved of the behaviour of Israel and had doubts over 9/11 – which makes a great deal of the population “extremist”. But the Mirror has the only mainstream mention I can find of the possibility that Mossad carried out the killings. Given Mr al-Hilli’s profession, the fact he is a Shia, the fact he had visited Iran, and the fact that Israel heas been assassinating scientists connected to Iran’s nuclear programme, this has to be a possibility. There are of course other possibilities, but to ignore that one is ludicrous.
Which leads me to the argument of Daily Mail crime reporter, Stephen Wright, that the French police should concentrate on the idea that this was a killing by a random Alpine madman or racist bigot. Perfectly possible, of course, and the anti-Muslim killings in Marseille might be as much a precedent as Mossad killings of scientists. But why the lone madman idea should be the preferred investigation, Mr Wright does not explain. What I did find interesting from a man who has visited many crime scenes are his repeated insinuations that the French authorities are not really trying very hard to find who the killers were, for example:
the crime scene would have been sealed off for a minimum of seven to ten days, to allow detailed forensic searches for DNA, fibres, tyre marks and shoe prints to take place.
Nearby bushes and vegetation would have been searched for any discarded food and cigarette butts left by the killer, not to mention the murder weapon.
But from what I saw at the end of last week, no such searches had taken place and potentially vital evidence could have been missed. House to house inquiries in the local area had yet to be completed and police had not made specific public appeals for information about the crime. No reward had been put up for information about the shootings.
Behind the scenes, what other short cuts have been taken? Have police seized data identifying all mobile phones being used in the vicinity of the murders that day?
The idea that the French authorities – who are quite as capable as any other of solving cases – are not really trying very hard is an interesting one.
Which leads me to this part of a remarkable article from the Daily Telegraph, which if true points us back towards a hit squad and discounts the ides that there was only one gun:
Claims that only one gun was used to kill everybody is likely to be disproved by full ballistics test results which are out in October.
While the 25 spent bullet cartridges found at the scene are all of the same kind, they could in fact have come from a number of weapons of the same make.
This throws up the possibility of a well-equipped, highly-trained gang circling the car and then opening fire.
Both children were left alive by the killers, who had clinically pumped bullets into everybody else, including five into Mr Mollier.
Zainab was found staggering around outside the car by Brett Martin, a British former RAF serviceman who cycled by moments after the attack, but he saw nobody except the schoolgirl.
Her sister, Zeena, was found unscathed and hiding in the car eight hours later.
Both sisters are now back in Britain, and are believed to have been reunited at a secret location near London.
There are of course a number of hit squad options, both governmental and private, which might well involve iraqi or Iranian interests – on both of which the mainstream media have been very happy to speculate while almost unanimously ignoring Israel.
But what interests me is why the Daily Telegraph choose, in the face of all the evidence, to minimise the horrific nature of the attack by stating that “Both children were left alive by the killers”? Zainab was not left alive by design, she was shot in the chest and her skull was stove in, which presumably was a pretty serious attempt to kill a seven year-old child. The other girl might very well have succeeded in hiding from the killers under her mother’s skirts, as she hid from the first rescuers, and then for eight hours from the police.
The Telegraph article claims to be informed by sources close to the investigation. So they believe it was a group of people, and feel motivated to absolve those people from child-killing. Now what could the Daily Telegraph be thinking?
@Pink
27 Apr, 2014 – 10:35 pm
BTW regarding the rear door being open: In the new pic with SM on the ground, the rear door does not appear to be open.
Since this must be an earlier image, I think it is more likely the rear door was opened by the forensics team, possibly to gain entry avoiding further disturbance to and by the shattered windows.
@Intp1
Good point I had seen something in the past that said police opened the boot so going into the boot for something can be ruled a lower possibility ,does he get out with his passports in his hand and drop the others on the floor how else could they be outside of the car to be stolen ?
If the police think the killer may have taken them even though it “was tight”they must think it possible he was asked for them surely,it makes Eric D look a bit suspicious and the forest workers,a former policeman and vehicles with the ability to police the wood that were both thereabouts .
The only other reason to have them outside of the car would be to prove his ID to someone for some purpose and it begs the question would he need his wife’s for that ,who’s passport would the children be on or would they have their own ?
Something else strikes me looking closer at the overhead photo http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/02/19/article-2561919-1B9DFB5D00000578-715_634x415.jpg
with the body of SM.
The yellow markers, we can assume are all or mostly bullet casings. Look at the pattern of about 7 visible markers. 3 of them are on the road, in fact the far side of the road. How would that work? If I am shooting in the road and moving parallel to the road, I am moving along the road, as I pursue my target, that means my target is moving parallel to the road, perhaps I am shooting from a vehicle?
The trapezoid pattern of 4 flags on the edge of the car end of the layby is troubling. It is hard for me to think how that pattern occurred for a single shooter. Any of 2 flags could represent a shooter moving and shooting twice as they either moved towards the car with 2 shots or down the side of the car when either the car reversed or to shoot into front then back seats.
What situation would mean I shot twice going in one direction then moved sideways then back again. I am obviously not a forensics expert but when I apply inquiring logic, I don’t see a reasonable way, a single shooter would make this square dance pattern? Can anybody else?
Think of yourself moving along, how could you make these patterns in time as you fired?
The other thing that strikes me is how much shooting occurred at that end of the layby. And if we believe there were 10 casings under the car (how did that happen?) almost all shooting occurred at the north end where the car is. One marker is just before the layby even starts; it suggests to me that shooter(s) approached the scene from the north, up the hill?
I remember there were other pics with evidence flags. It might be interesting to do a thorough analysis of them all?
Passports. SAH’s Iraqi passport was at the scene!
According to a report of the 14:00 h press conference
“Un passeport irakien et un passeport suédois ont été retrouvés dans le véhicule. Celui du chauffeur indique qu’il est d’origine Irakienne et né en 1962; le second, celui de la femme la plus âgée, indique qu’elle est d’origine suédoise et née en 1938. En revanche aucun document d’identité n’a été trouvé concernant les enfants et la jeune femme.”
The drivers Iraqi passport and the Grandmother’s Swedish passport were in police hands on the day after the event. Not so, the younger woman or children.
So why are they saying they found no British passports for SAH? He wasn’t forced to have had one on the trip? Unless they know from other travel details that a UK passport was presented.
Here is something we missed, I think.
At a press conference on 8 Sept:
16h25 : l’enquête progresse normalement mais on ne peut pas faire de pronostic sur la réussite ou l’échec de cette enquête.
Le siège enfant a été retrouvé à l’avant du véhicule.
“A child’s seat was found in the front of the vehicle”
That means that Zainab was travelling in the front passenger seat and that no adults are likely to have sat in the front (even briefly?) I am not familiar with these booster seats.
All this stuff is from a mostly post event timeline published here:
http://www.lemessager.fr/Actualite/Chablais/2012/09/05/article_messager_1623629.shtml#.U1_b-fl_hY4
@Intp A booster seat is a type of seatpad that raises the child to the right height for the seatbelt, we did know there was one in the car ,possibly Zainab sat in the front on a booster seat to combat travel sickness.
http://www.ebay.com/bhp/backless-booster-car-seat
@Intp1
1)
“So why are they saying they found no British passports for SAH? He wasn’t forced to have had one on the trip? Unless they know from other travel details that a UK passport was presented.”
Long time since I travelled on a ferry to France – is it like air travel in respect to passports nowadays? In which case it would be recorded.
…or because no UK passport showed up when the AH house was searched.
2)
re: “yellow markers”
The pattern is odd isn’t it.
Could the car have been much further forward and possibly moving slowly backwards (in a straight line) when these shots were fired? The trapezoid group representing shots fired directly at the driver and rear passenger on that side and the single marker (below and to the right, near the road/lay-by junction) representing a shot fired at the passenger on the other side?
If they don’t represent cartridge cases what else could they be marking? If they are cartridge cases then it seems to show the weapon, if it was capable of fully automatic fire (ref your specially modified weapon theory), was used in single shot mode (no pile of cartridge cases from a burst, unless there was such a pile under the car?).
Also why are three yellow markers (bottom left) outside what appears to be the taped off area?
Re passport
It just strikes me the French are trying to score some points again. I mean a missing passport, when SAH did have one, is the least of their problems. Its just peripheral noise. Maybe they think they know what happened to it and are making a point (to the Brits).
Re the child seat, now I seem to remember this coming up before. If there was only one, would it not be for Zeena?
Cartridges, yes the car must logically have been originally further forward, he wouldn’t have parked it with the wheels up the bank. Plod’s theory is that it started out facing in at the other end.
But the 3 bullets on the road- A vehicle along side and shooting at a riding SM?
BTW the search facility Ferret created above is wonderful! Have you tried it?
PS
I think the presence of the family and then the attack on the family is key. Whatever theory you look at, you wind up asking: Why bring them? and why kill them? Possibly whatever the answer explains both.
Sorry guys, but all this talk of passports.
Have you forgotten the ones left at the check-in desk & held by the campsite ?
Two….Iranian & Swedish, Mothers & Saads, were found in the car, Igbals & the children’s were probably the ones in the campsite safe.
This would mean they all travelled on non UK passports…….if we are to believe the police on any British passports not being found.
Could it be indicative that the two in the car were needed for something that day ?
Also BB the EU does not issue passports.
Bleb.
Yes, ferries to France always need a PP…but, where I travel from in France it is checked by the human eye not scanned on a machine, so the only record would be with the ferry company & tickets.
Yes it could have been for Zeena without back tracking I can’t remember the details now it will be on MZT somewhere ,I just remember it being a topic that was talked about .
UK LAWS https://www.gov.uk/child-car-seats-the-rules
FRANCE http://www.brittany-internet.com/BrittanyNews/DrivingFrance/ChildrenscarseatsetcinFrance/tabid/2504/Default.aspx
SM suffered “right elbow abraded, fractured ribs and collarbone right broken”.
Plus bullets in the back and head
3 casings on the road
Could be consistent with being shot from a vehicle as he rode, falling to his right.
Assailants pull up (into the layby?) and finish the job
This flies in the face of killers waiting till all had arrived but maybe they took care of each party as they arrived?
Marlin had told me Mollier’s DNA was on SAH. Does anyone know where that came from?
@Intpl
Can’t find the orginal but its reported here
“Blood-splatter evidence points to a bizarre scenario at the scene of the crime. The elder Al-Hilli, shot as he sat in the driver’s seat of his burgundy BMW station wagon, had Mollier’s blood on his clothing, meaning he was outside the car when the cyclist was killed. The Al-Hillis’ 7-year-old daughter, Zainab, was pistol-whipped and found outside the car with a gunshot wound to her shoulder. She had drops of Mollier’s blood on the soles of her feet.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/11/25/was-the-al-hilli-alps-murder-the-act-of-a-serial-killer.html
@
Katie
30 Apr, 2014 – 10:12 pm
Can you point to source that says they found the missing passports?
I cant find any reference to passports being found at the campsite though it is quite the norm in France to be asked for passports at hotels etc.
But when this came up late last year, Bluebird made the point that none of the family legally had the right to an Iraqi passport since they were citizens of other countries and hadn’t lived in Iraq for decades, so SAH should not have had a current Iraqi passport, nor Suaila.
Another theory was that they might have been travelling with diplomatic papers, possibly UN passports and might even have been trying to renew them at the UN in Geneva before some deadline.
If they had diplomatic passports, that might be another possible reason for removing and losing them. Might be embarrassing for whomever issued them?
@Bleb
29 Apr, 2014 – 12:51 am
“The child was not necessarily deliberately shot”
Here is an interesting piece of logic that talks to this from an ancient post:
The killer or killers could not have been contracted to kill the entire al-Hilli family. Nor can they have been instructed not to harm the children,
Why? Because if they had been hired to kill the entire family, they would have made sure to kill Zainab and Zena (Professionals would certainly have been aware of her existence).
If they had been instructed to murder only the adults, they would not have shot and severely beaten Zainab which could easily have proved fatal.
I suppose the point is that real professionals would have known all details about the family and likely been given clear instructions as to who was a target and who wasn’t. In-between, “only if you must” or “Instructions are silent on these individuals” are not really professional?
Interesting argument, by “Kathy”
Hi Pink.
It has been written in the media a couple of times & one quite recently, plus it would normal for the campsite security I should think.
Sorry I didn’t keep the link because it’s the UK PP they seem concerned about.
One other thing, maybe BB knows, but, does an Iraqi have to have separate PP for children ,certainly a British one does ?
They were still missing in october 2013 Katie
Oct 25, 2013
“Today, the prosecutor in charge of the case revealed detectives have never found the passports of Mr and Mrs al-Hilli, despite extensive searches both in France and the UK.”
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/french-alps-murders-al-hilli-passports-2529987#ixzz30bJpyf1D
@Intp1
2 May, 2014 – 11:41 am
I don’t entirely follow that reasoning.
1) Professionals would kill those they were ordered/paid to kill.
2) Those that ordered/paid the professionals obviously would want those people dead.
I can’t see either of these groups, by their very nature, being sentimental about who else got hurt in the process.
In fact both of the “two states” show a complete indifference to “enemy” civilians and children with drone strikes and punitive bombardments.
—
The last two paragraphs of Craig’s original bit (at the head of this thread) are interesting though. He, at that time, was presumably thinking the signs indicated that one or perhaps both of the “two states” was responsible.
Pink that is incorrect & yet another change in information they have been feeding us…..OR that reference you give, is referring to the UK PP’s…….which we know are supposed to be missing.
We were told right at the beginning that AH’s IRAQI PP was found in the car with the MIL’s….remember, they were in the ‘footwell’ ?
@Bleb
3 May, 2014 – 12:29 am
I suppose my point, mostly to myself is that there is some niggling contrary data against the professional hit hypothesis
I mean there are professionals and there are professionals.
The top of the line, over -resourced, team of state-trained, practiced, front-line operatives with backup extraction and backup transport and secure communications to a remote control room team with even more resources and a plan and several contingency plans, etc. etc. The closer you get to that level, the less likely the apparent glitch e.g. of a Zainab (could have died or could have been kept safe) indecision would come up?
They had several days of Targets being in the area, they would have known exactly who was in the party and therefore who could concievably be at the meeting. The BMW apparently meandered on its way there, oodles of time to surveille and appraise what they were dealing with, discuss and make decisions.
It’s still possible a crack team could screw-up or be overwhelmed by factors beyond their control, they would be some-one we now’s government after all:) and I think it is at least as unlikely that a lone nut could pull it off as well as it was,
But maybe the smart money should be on something short a top-of-the-line “professional” operation?
@ Katie This passport discussion is about the missing UK passport and what might have happened to them .
@Intp1
3 May, 2014 – 5:54 pm
I agree on the “something short a top-of-the-line “professional” operation”.
@ Katie
Page 27
29 Oct, 2012 – 20:16
Remember this?
…..This makes it look as though the French could have been involved with the murders.
Saddam’s only visit to a Western country took place in September 1975 when he met with his friend, Prime Minister Jacques Chirac in Paris, France.[54]
Several Iraqi leaders, Lebanese arms merchant Sarkis Soghanalian and others have told that Saddam financed Chirac’s party.
In 1991 Saddam threatened to expose those who had taken largesse from him:
“From Mr. Chirac to Mr. Chevènement, politicians and economic leaders were in open competition to spend time with us and flatter us. We have now grasped the reality of the situation…… If the trickery continues, we will be forced to unmask them, all of them, before the French public.”
Again we come to someone wanting to silence Saad if all this & more was found with the will.
Chirac represented the only country to try to stop the coalition-Iraq war. He got France a huge stake in Iraqi oil and he sold Iraq the Osirak reactor which the Israelis destroyed.
Can you remember your source for “Soghanalian and others have told that Saddam financed Chirac’s party”?
Did you mean the RNR Gaulist party that Chirac created out of nothing? Now defunct due to massive corruption accusations?
Hi Intp 1
No I don’t remember my source but I’m surprised to see my comment without a link,that would be unusual for me to leave a quote without one.
Here is the same quote repeated by many found in a Google search;
Then here are others with more background info ;
‘There remain persistent rumours that Hussein helped finance the party, supported by allegations by Lebanese arms merchant Sarkis Soghanalian[34] and by various Iraqi politicians.
In 1992, Saddam reportedly threatened to expose French leaders who had earlier accepted his largesse. “From Mr. Chirac to Mr. Chevènement, politicians and economic leaders were in open competition to spend time with us and flatter us,” the Iraqi leader reportedly said. “We have now grasped the reality of the situation [of France’s support for the 1991 Gulf War, a betrayal in Saddam’s eyes]. If the trickery continues, we will be forced to unmask them, all of them, before the French public.”[35] According to an aide, Chirac’s friendship with Hussein was such that he would stop for a night in Baghdad whenever he traveled between Paris and Asia.
http://www.meforum.org/772/the-chirac-doctrine
French President Jacques Chirac is a pivotal figure on the international scene, whose views on Iraq are of vital concern. Those views are not driven simply by geopolitics, however. The factors that shape his thinking include a long, complex and sometimes mysterious relationship with Saddam Hussein. The relationship is not secret, but it is no longer as well known as it once was — nor is it well known outside of France. It is not insignificant in understanding Chirac’s view of Iraq.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/846787/posts
‘Saddam’s only visit to a Western country took place in September 1975 when he met with his friend, Prime Minister Jacques Chirac in Paris, France.[46]
Several Iraqi leaders, Lebanese arms merchant Sarkis Soghanalian and others have told that Saddam financed Chirac’s party. In 1991 Saddam threatened to expose those who had taken largesse from him: “From Mr. Chirac to Mr. Chevènement, politicians and economic leaders were in open competition to spend time with us and flatter us. We have now grasped the reality of the situation. If the trickery continues, we will be forced to unmask them, all of them, before the French public.”[46] France armed Saddam and it was Iraq’s largest trade partner throughout Saddam’s rule. Seized documents show how French officials and businessmen close to Chirac, including Charles Pasqua, his former interior minister, personally benefitted from the deals with Saddam.[46]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hussein
Greetings:
I am reporting on progress on the refrence annex that Marlin and myself have been building on Googledocs
It is not finished by any means but here are most of the docs we have been working on.
Unfortunately Marlin has been poorly of late, in fact I’m not sure how he is at the moment as he is not able to use his e-mail.
But check these out and feel free to offer constructive criticism and especially further text or information if you can. The new blog search facility is invaluable in this regard.
You should be able to view but not edit the following documents:
Summary
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1L8W4V6t7hu3oIpeweJPLlqnKwKyk1KkfGbSGzPuoVt0/edit
THEORIES
3rd Party Hit
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hT0yZPphZaucwRwjhxnegQIecrU8RABWdfLlP6YPDiU/edit#heading=h.m5zi0cnbdl1a
https://docs.google.com/document/d/141HkVS9uRPaH4v3hMjutwZyGvzMEjJKnq4GqnADEUjE/edit
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WUoFAWA6VyzpreJhhul0U2kIRhTFvrcdEW2l9_Tb_9Q/edit
Incomplete/Non exclusive Theories
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wbv1YGItETD33t_S4H55PLqFDjftM0d0TC6v_3j5evo/edit
Legacy Iraq
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rWMB5sor-eMsfvBolmbRNCllJbnFgoWT13hDBRjhE2U/edit?usp=drive_web
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dprVio09IVrbzBmGNwf4wnycZoUe82uo0fDxoH3yApk/edit
REFERENCE FILES
Photos
https://drive.google.com/?authuser=0#folders/0B1_k3iYzAm1qX2ZoYW1rMnk4SDg
Family Tree
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uPt6TYW4UhKLBhhdDcpVP1aHLtZyE_RjnVFu-KRhLQg/edit?usp=drive_web
People
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oTU5cCsmkTkTItoByumI2tIF_XbZf3LTLKT95GJEmdg/edit?usp=drive_web
Materials
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Kx2qivsexG-RY23DKQioCkwb9Pq0C8tggIkCfvDrD6s/edit
Let me know if there are any problems with access.
Well done Intp 1 it works fine that’s a lot of work great job .
I didn’t see DMC international imaging on there that’s one you might like to add .
This is from Q on the missing aircraft thread to give context.
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/03/disappearing-aircraft/comment-page-13/#comments
Q
13 May, 2014 – 12:25 am
@Pink: Saad al-Hilli definitely knew something about remote sensing. Remember that he worked for Surrey Satellites’s spinoff company DMC (Disaster Monitoring Constellation) International Imaging in France? China is one of their major clients.
http://earsc.org/members/dmc-international-imaging
A little more for anyone interested perhaps Q will add some details as its not something I know about ,I did wonder if SAH could have been doing a survey of some sort as he was said to have work on his computers that was not sensitive.
Deimos-1[2] is a Spanish Earth imaging satellite which is operated by Deimos Imaging who commercializes its imagery directly but also has distribution agreements with other entities like Astrium GEO and DMC International Imaging
It was constructed by Surrey Satellite Technology, based on the SSTL-100 satellite bus……
read more
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deimos-1
http://www.deimos-space.com/en/comercial/
@ Pink
I added DMC international imaging to the companies/projects SAH was involved in but if there is a specific theory involving DMC, someone will need to spell it out for us.
Otherwise this is one more area that could have conceivably involved sensitive information that SAH could have been shopping for various reasons.
Having gone through the process of writing out several of these theories, I have to say that my leanings are now (more than they were) a tad more towards some Iraq legacy issue, involving information or money connected to the Swiss account. Some of my reasons:
* It is a little easier to rationalize why his family were there and were killed (which is a key sticking point with almost all the possibilities).
* The high level Diplomatic/Business and clerical connections of the family
* Why the French are covering up so vehemently.
* Why the ZAH/SAH argument might have been intense and why they couldn’t solved their problem by simply accessing the Swiss account and sharing it out (taking into account the real estate).
* Why the Swiss account doesn’t seem important enough on its own to precipitate such an extreme action, and in any case didn’t gain anyone access to it.
* The semi-professional characteristics of the “hit”
* The ineffective baby-sitting by WBM.
* The apparent (heated) discussions and visits and excursions leading up to the event
* How Khadim’s death could have kicked it all off
These all sit for me, a little more easily into an Iraq connected scenario, though by no means with good confidence.