The Al-Hilli Conundrum 6629

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My post on the shootings in France has brought tens of thousands of people to this site – but not to read my dull contribution. People are coming to read the comments from other readers.

Today’s development of the bomb squad descending on the al-Hilli house does not in itself worry me enormously. You may recall the massive terror scare that was ramped up when some Muslim students in Manchester were found to own a bag of sugar.

In fact we have the opposite phenomenon today, with the spook-fed “security correspondents” on TV lining up to tell us it is probably just everyday household stuff. This deviation from the standard Islamophobic “Muslims = bombs” narrative is so startling it makes me wonder why the “move along, nothing to see here” line is being taken so quickly.

My own security services sources insist that al-Hilli was not a person of current interest to the UK intelligence agencies and was not involved in anything clandestine. I have no reason to disbelieve them. On the other hand, the limited and confusing information in the media is almost entirely from official sources. I find it very strange indeed how little attention has been paid to the murdered French cyclist, and how easily it is presumed he was just a passerby. Surely it is as likely he was the intended victim and the al-Hillis the accidental witnesses?

Please do read the comments on my first entry on the subject to see the debate unfettered by the censorship in the mainstream media. This is perhaps my favourite comment:

From Janesmith101

All comments regarding Sylvain, Al-Hilli and a possible nuclear link are being removed from sites I’ve posted on in The Guardian, Independent and Huffpo UK.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/sep/09/alps-killer-motive-baffles-police

Here was my comment, I added as a point of fact it was completely speculative and an unproven theory in a later comment, also removed.

Sylvain Mollier, the ‘passing’ cyclist, was in fact a nuclear metallurgist who worked for a french nuclear company called Cezus (a subsidiary of Areva). Cezus fabricates and processes zirconium into metal and nuclear grade zircoaloy for nuclear fuel assemblies – it also has other applications in aerospace such as components and ceramics for missiles and satellites. Mr Al-Hilli was also a skilled aerospace engineer, on what looks to be his first camping holiday.

What is the probability that two highly skilled engineers managed be at the same remote place, at the same time, yet still managed to end up dead as a result of what looks to be a military style assasination?

As someone else pointed out in The Independent comments, the deceased were found by a ‘retired’ RAF officer who, we assume, will recieve perpetual anonymity as a witness. If the police are looking for a motive, try an intercepted rendevous by a security service fixated on denying a hostile power illicit nuclear technology.

http://wrmea.org/component/content/article/162-1995-june/7823-israel-bombs-iraqs-osirak-nuclear-research-facility.html

The Huffington Post UK reports that this wasn’t the family’s first trip to the camp site. An earlier report had asked other camp site visitors whether they had seen the family before and they had replied they hadn’t. If this isn’t wasn’t the first visit by Al-Hilli, it might slightly increase the odds that he knew or had met Mollier before, this being the last in a series of rendevous of a transactional nature. Mollier lived and worked locally.

Again, I’m not sure of the truth of these reports, there is some very sloppy journalism, as there is always seems to be. I’ve read for example Mollier’s company Cevus descirbed as a steel firm something which it is patently not, but perhaps it may have been a detail lost in translation.

An interesting comment summing up some of the strange coincidences, at least, surrounding these murders. My other favourite comment calls me a “macchiavellian shill”.

I have only one thought of my own I want to add at the minute. Al-Hilli was a Shia muslim and had been on pilgrimage to Qoms in Iran. What if it is indeed true that he was in possession of no especial nuclear or defence secrets to pass on to the Iranians, but the Israelis thought that he was? The Israeli programme of assassination of scientists involved in Iran’s nuclear programme is a definite fact. It makes as much sense as anything else at the moment, as a possibility.

I am not saying that is what happened. But the directions in which the mainstream media is being so strenuously pointed by official sources, like the massacre of an entire family over an inheritance, are certainly no more inherently probable. Certainly as we are now told all the shots were from one gun, for the assassin to get each victim in the head with none of them being able to escape, indicates real proficiency with the weapon and a very high level of training.

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6,629 thoughts on “The Al-Hilli Conundrum”

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  • phil t

    And next they were going to presesent the clear-cut evidence that it was mossad or whatever or whoever that/what/it hit … the poor unfortunate bastard/git who/which got in the way of the bullets -/; that/which were really intended 4…

  • phil t

    Feefifofum fiona died out the dyeing or was that dieying bits and pie es of her gray/grey hair – hear/ear/er ” hesitation …
    ear here – all of whixh went to prove —

  • Blue_Bear

    anders7777

    18 Sep, 2012 – 10:53 pm

    Has no one thought that the girl was the barganing chip and the girl wasn’t in the car that day, she had already been kidnapped

    =====
    You are the first to mention that afaik! 😉

    ……………………………….

    I alluded to it last night. I mentioned that the girl’s bullet wound could have happened if she was being held in the arms of a kidnapper who then got shot from the woods. The bullet could have passed through her into his chest which would affect the bullet/wound count. One of them would have to crawl a few yards to get to their final positions though. Both could have got there via a van.

    Am I right in thinking that the only reason the family were there was because they had to be intrinsic to the “plot”? Might sound obvious but surely they wouldn’t be there if they didn’t have to be..?

  • phil t

    Once open a time a tale was told of such epic bad taste crudity that it could only e er
    be told on e and it ztarteed ….y andcrude’ a 1000 cunts cunts cunts and hkw more cruxe ,ud 1 git?

  • phil t

    If it were a totally callous killer, as you suggest, anders-77- ,he would have killed the lot … but by not killing the lot he gave you and others something to talk Bout other than Utter Outrage!

  • phil t

    On e upon a time a callous killer went to a french wood and killed adultdz but not children be cause tbat is what he had been ordered to do …

  • Felix

    Kidnapping? Might explain the involvement of diplomats. And uncertainty over numbers. As I said on the 11th, the first 5th Sept interview by Eric Maillaud on Sky was very weird. His actual translated words were “there are least four if not five victims killed by bullets”
    I think he says “….minimum quatre, peut-être [cinq]…” underneath the simultaneous translation. What an odd thing to say. Notice Leila Lamnaouer was feeding Sky, which took an inordinate amount of time to put the story up. (why?) [6.41am the next day]

    Notice a Wiki page in French which has been written pretty well singlehanded by Roland45
    http://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tuerie_de_Chevaline&action=history

  • Suhayl Saadi

    “OK guys, are we discussing Al-Hilli or are you going to continue to beat about the normal practices of the SS.

    Everybody knows they bump people off so get over it.

    Can we get back on thread topic please?”

    Ronald Teflon, sometime yesterday evening.

    No, everyone does not know. I have long been “over it”. We, who openly believe they do, are in a very small minority among the UK population. The rest simply won;t accept it, or else suspect it and keep quiet. The mainstream media will not allow direct discussion of the subject in a manner that accepts it as a possibility. Accepting it as a rational possibility undermines the legitimacy of the entire state/power apparatus.

    My point in initiating this line of discourse was not to divert the thread – I already made that very clear – but simply to suggest that a better understanding of the real nature of the UK state, historically and now, might be gained through analysis of the dynamic that says, ‘everyone knows they kill individuals in secret but no-one is allowed to admit it in public’. I also was suggesting that the imperial nature of the UK and French states was of relevance. As with many in the USA, those who live at the centre of empire are likely to the least aware of its workings and are most likely to embrace false consciousness, be lulled to sleep.

    This is a 3,000-plus long thread; so to talk about being ‘off-topic’ is amusing. This is very much on topic. UK and French secret services have cooperated before in murdering people and on much else. I don’t know what happened with the Al-Hilli case. But this is the context. We are dealing with profoundly mendacious states.

  • Katie

    Good morning all.

    Fiona, so where do you believe Mollier fits in there , as far as we know …he was not an Arab ?

    Anders I’ve read Ghost, a good holiday read, but only because I kept relating it to Bliar !

    I like you, I found rafman fake, I believe he was the hitman ,state sponsored hence his confidence = untouchable.

    For a man who was frightened when he went down the hill & ‘in hiding for fear of his life’ the two characters do not tally.
    Why couldn’t the beeb/police be honest & say they are his words but this is an actor speaking for him………as they often do quite openly if someone’s life is in danger ?

    No one having seen that horror,no matter how well rehearsed, could do that interview without a hesitation,gulp,sigh,visible pain flash across their face at such a memory…….but… then I have this nagging question, wouldn’t an actor have done just that,shown the agony he’d felt ?

    So,we come back to him being the shooter, undercover Mi5,confident he had done a good job in eliminating bad people . I think terrorism but if it were nuclear smuggling then why don’t the police say it was terrorism & clear themselves ? People would accept that & the suspicions would calm down.

    Is there someone powerful in Bagdad they don’t want to upset ?

  • Felix

    Another one who has gone to ground on twitter, with the biggest story of his life on his doorstep is Stéphane BOUCHET of Le Dauphine.com
    He seemed to have Philippe D in for a chat:
    « En montant vers le parking du Martinet, nous avons croisé un homme qui descendait, avec du sang sur les mains , raconte Philippe D. Il nous a fait comprendre qu’il y avait eu un drame plus haut. Il n’avait pas pu prévenir les secours, je n’ai pas bien compris s’il n’avait pas de téléphone ou si ça ne passait pas sur les lieux. Nous avons poursuivi la route et nous avons trouvé la voiture… »

    Les trois randonneurs découvrent alors horrifiés les trois victimes tuées par balles à l’intérieur de la voiture de la famille al-Hilli, ainsi que leur fille aînée et le cycliste savoyard, étendus près du break BMW.

    A comment by HA above on Sept 12 picked this up. Brett Martin had blood on his hands? Strangely the article doesn’t say what happened to l’homme. The three ranonneurs find the bodies. Where is BM??
    http://www.ledauphine.com/haute-savoie/2012/09/11/temoignage-j-ai-eu-peur-que-l-assassin-soit-encore-sur-les-lieux

    This is a taster for the edition of 12 September, which doesn’t seem to be online.

  • Ferret

    Morning all…

    @GuyF @Kathy

    So maybe handy with a sonic screwdriver ?

    LOL!

    😀

    @Anders

    Trois corps se trouvaient dans cette voiture, dont celui d’un jeune enfant, selon une source proche de l’enquête.
    A proximité, a aussi été découvert un cycliste, mort également, ainsi qu’une jeune fille, vivante, mais grièvement blessée.

    My translation:

    Three bodies were found in the car, of which one was a young child, according to a source close to the investigation.
    Nearby, a dead cyclist was also discovered, as well as a young girl who was alive, but seriously wounded.

    @Roland T

    Re Jean le Carre… Amen to that! Remember, folks, ye can’ne break the laws of physics!!!

    @GuyF

    10:00: Cyclist found dead near the car, according to our information, has been identified. It would Sylvain Mollier Cezus employed in the enterprise, specializing in metallurgy and based in Ugine Savoie. The town is a few tens of kilometers of Chevaline.

    Thanks for the corroboration, it’s hard to find references to what he actually did at Cezus, seems like later reports have been sanitised.

  • Felix

    Did BM mention having blood all over his hands??
    http://www.leprogres.fr/france-monde/2012/09/12/philippe-d-on-a-eu-peur-que-le-tueur-soit-toujours-la
    « Nous étions partis en voiture pour faire une randonnée dans les Bauges, se souvient-il. D’habitude, on monte par l’autre côté (Savoie). C’est la première fois que nous venions par la combe d’Ire. En montant sur la petite route forestière, nous avons croisé un homme qui a attiré notre attention. Il avait les mains couvertes de sang. Il nous a fait comprendre qu’il s’était passé quelque chose de grave un peu plus haut. Visiblement, il voulait donner l’alerte, mais il n’avait pas de téléphone mobile, ou pas de réseau. Le parking du Martinet n’était pas loin, alors nous avons appelé les pompiers et nous sommes montés voir ce qu’on pouvait faire… »………

    « Il n’y avait aucun signe de vie. On a appelé, tapé dans les mains, mais aucune victime n’a bougé, alors nous ne nous sommes pas approchés du véhicule. Si nous avions entendu le moindre cri ou vu le moindre signe qu’une des victimes était vivante, nous nous serions précipités pour lui porter secours. Franchement, nous étions sûrs que tout le monde était mort. »

    Again, no mention of BM with them at the scene. No sign of life in the girl.

  • Ferret

    @Katie

    Wait a minute… yesterday you said you believed that Mollier and the Al Hilli’s were making a bomb, so the police or special forces blew them away, Bin Laden style…

    Why are you now asking where Mollier fits in?

    And BTW, not all Arabs are Muslim. Just so you know.

  • Katie

    “« En montant vers le parking du Martinet, nous avons croisé un homme qui descendait, avec du sang sur les mains ”

    That’s what it says Felix. BM would have if he placed her in the recovery position yes ?

  • Ferret

    @Felix

    BM didn’t mention anything about blood on his hands. Another OOPS.

    And yes, it’s decidedly odd that PD didn’t mention anything about RAFman being on the scene when he and his two companions discovered the bodies…

    In fact, the way the story has been spun, the implication is that RAFman and PD went back up together (and PD’s two friends stayed in the car?).

    Whereas what the initial tweets are saying is that PD and his two friends proceeded upwards without RAFman (who’d buggered off downhill, with his hands covered in blood) to discover the horrific crime scene.

    I know which version I believe!

    🙂

    Very odd then that the two friends of PD are not named, interviewed, etc.

    And re some of last night’s posts, I agree that the shooting could have happened quite a lot earlier than 4pm, giving the killers ample time to leg it. It’d be interesting to ask Mrs “pah pah pah” what time she heard the shots…

  • Ferret

    @Katie

    Firstly Ferret I did not say that .

    Actually, yes you did, yesterday 18 Sep, 2012 at 12:22 pm:

    Ferret why didn’t they arrest BL or other top AQ activists ?

    The question is a non starter, of course it makes sense to eliminate them, they could hardly eliminate Hicheur on a few emails, they may just have known of & seen some dangerous material change hands between the two now dead men ….. that would be hard evidence & enough proof.

    Secondly read the thread, I was refering to Fiona’s comment.

    Yes, I noticed that.

    Yes I do know ‘all Arabs are not muslim ‘ !

    Then why did you write: Fiona, so where do you believe Mollier fits in there , as far as we know …he was not an Arab ?

    What difference does it make if he was or was not an Arab?

  • Katie

    Ferret, you have always had a way of twisting words.
    I asked simply ‘why’ they didn’t arrest BL in reply to your comment they could have just arrested AH instead of killing him,nothing more.

    As for my question to Fiona,that is self explanatory…..work it out.

  • Ferret

    @Katie

    I asked simply ‘why’ they didn’t arrest BL in reply to your comment they could have just arrested AH instead of killing him,nothing more.

    Ah… no, again.

    At the time, I was asking you why, if you felt that they were caught red-handed by the “good guys” and blown away, why they weren’t arrested like Hicheur was.

    So you didn’t simply and innocently ask why they didn’t arrest BL, you added:

    “… of course it makes sense to eliminate them, they could hardly eliminate Hicheur on a few emails, they may just have known of & seen some dangerous material change hands between the two now dead men … that would be hard evidence & enough proof.”

    Which is exactly what I said earlier. You’ve been caught out.

  • bluebird

    If in fact she is our granny, then the sentence in her homepage is most intriguing:

    A year ago, Dr. Al-Safar has also begun to write a weekly column in the Arabic Al-Wasat newspaper. These writings also provide an outlet for both creative expression and seek to examine the current state of Arab society and politics. Some of her articles can be found online at www.alwasatnews.com in page 12 of the online edition every Thursday.

    ###

    Perhaps we could not find those links because her first name was spelled wrongly in press releases.

    Her husbands name was ahmad (ahmed). That exactly is her second name in the bahraini ministry of health pdf.

    Also she is a dentist. Coincidence that SAH’ s wife ( her daughter) was a dentist, too?

    SAH met her daughter in dubai. Well, perhaps he met her on his journey to VAE. Bahrein is closeby.

    If that is granny, i suggest to save the websites since they could be gone quite quickly then.

    What do you think about that find?

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