My post on the shootings in France has brought tens of thousands of people to this site – but not to read my dull contribution. People are coming to read the comments from other readers.
Today’s development of the bomb squad descending on the al-Hilli house does not in itself worry me enormously. You may recall the massive terror scare that was ramped up when some Muslim students in Manchester were found to own a bag of sugar.
In fact we have the opposite phenomenon today, with the spook-fed “security correspondents” on TV lining up to tell us it is probably just everyday household stuff. This deviation from the standard Islamophobic “Muslims = bombs” narrative is so startling it makes me wonder why the “move along, nothing to see here” line is being taken so quickly.
My own security services sources insist that al-Hilli was not a person of current interest to the UK intelligence agencies and was not involved in anything clandestine. I have no reason to disbelieve them. On the other hand, the limited and confusing information in the media is almost entirely from official sources. I find it very strange indeed how little attention has been paid to the murdered French cyclist, and how easily it is presumed he was just a passerby. Surely it is as likely he was the intended victim and the al-Hillis the accidental witnesses?
Please do read the comments on my first entry on the subject to see the debate unfettered by the censorship in the mainstream media. This is perhaps my favourite comment:
From Janesmith101
All comments regarding Sylvain, Al-Hilli and a possible nuclear link are being removed from sites I’ve posted on in The Guardian, Independent and Huffpo UK.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/sep/09/alps-killer-motive-baffles-police
Here was my comment, I added as a point of fact it was completely speculative and an unproven theory in a later comment, also removed.
Sylvain Mollier, the ‘passing’ cyclist, was in fact a nuclear metallurgist who worked for a french nuclear company called Cezus (a subsidiary of Areva). Cezus fabricates and processes zirconium into metal and nuclear grade zircoaloy for nuclear fuel assemblies – it also has other applications in aerospace such as components and ceramics for missiles and satellites. Mr Al-Hilli was also a skilled aerospace engineer, on what looks to be his first camping holiday.
What is the probability that two highly skilled engineers managed be at the same remote place, at the same time, yet still managed to end up dead as a result of what looks to be a military style assasination?
As someone else pointed out in The Independent comments, the deceased were found by a ‘retired’ RAF officer who, we assume, will recieve perpetual anonymity as a witness. If the police are looking for a motive, try an intercepted rendevous by a security service fixated on denying a hostile power illicit nuclear technology.
http://wrmea.org/component/content/article/162-1995-june/7823-israel-bombs-iraqs-osirak-nuclear-research-facility.html
The Huffington Post UK reports that this wasn’t the family’s first trip to the camp site. An earlier report had asked other camp site visitors whether they had seen the family before and they had replied they hadn’t. If this isn’t wasn’t the first visit by Al-Hilli, it might slightly increase the odds that he knew or had met Mollier before, this being the last in a series of rendevous of a transactional nature. Mollier lived and worked locally.
Again, I’m not sure of the truth of these reports, there is some very sloppy journalism, as there is always seems to be. I’ve read for example Mollier’s company Cevus descirbed as a steel firm something which it is patently not, but perhaps it may have been a detail lost in translation.
An interesting comment summing up some of the strange coincidences, at least, surrounding these murders. My other favourite comment calls me a “macchiavellian shill”.
I have only one thought of my own I want to add at the minute. Al-Hilli was a Shia muslim and had been on pilgrimage to Qoms in Iran. What if it is indeed true that he was in possession of no especial nuclear or defence secrets to pass on to the Iranians, but the Israelis thought that he was? The Israeli programme of assassination of scientists involved in Iran’s nuclear programme is a definite fact. It makes as much sense as anything else at the moment, as a possibility.
I am not saying that is what happened. But the directions in which the mainstream media is being so strenuously pointed by official sources, like the massacre of an entire family over an inheritance, are certainly no more inherently probable. Certainly as we are now told all the shots were from one gun, for the assassin to get each victim in the head with none of them being able to escape, indicates real proficiency with the weapon and a very high level of training.
Bilbo, what would your first action be under those circumstances ?
Mine would be to run to the car, hearing the engine running…to tell the parents to come quickly their daughter needs them, then I’d dash back to the child.
My other question is,that if both girls were out of the car,what was the 4 YO doing & why was she not running onto the road sobbing , thereby being the ‘first’ child BM would see ?
Ferret yes it does.
But I cannot believe he would plan grande espionage online since we are told all emails are now read.
Only of course if his illegal activities were written in Arabic [ which I suspect they would be ] would there be a chance of him getting away with it .
There is also the chance he ‘was’ an interpreter for us & that’s what his ranting chums didn’t like…..working for the infidel etc.
From all I’ve read,I cannot see him as a violent man. Gary Aked also backs that up.
I can’t remember whether this has actually been recorded in this thread or the previous one. So here it is, for completeness. As Fiona said (20 Sep, 2012 – 12:02 am) “The very first report in the French press at 17:45 did mention a young child as one of the dead in the car in addition to the badly injured girl outside the car.”
http://www.lemessager.fr/Actualite/Chablais/2012/09/05/article_messager_1623629.shtml
Mercredi 5 septembre 2012
17h45 : Macabre découverte mercredi après-midi à Chevaline (Haute-Savoie). Quatre corps ont été retrouvés, a priori tués par arme à feu, dans cette commune située sur les hauteurs du lac d’Annecy. Un véhicule a été retrouvé stationné sur un parking à proximité de la route forestière domaniale de la Combe d’Ire.
Trois corps se trouvaient dans cette voiture, dont celui d’un jeune enfant, selon une source proche de l’enquête. A proximité, a aussi été découvert un cycliste, mort également, ainsi qu’une jeune fille, vivante, mais grièvement blessée.
Le maire du village s’est rendu sur place, et un important dispositif de secours a été déployé. Le secteur a été bouclé par les gendarmes, le procureur de la République est en route. Une conférence de presse devrait être organisée dans la soirée.
Wednesday 5 September 2012
17:45 Macabre discovery on Wednesday afternoon at Chevaline (Haute-Savoie). Four bodies were found, seemingly killed by armed weapon, in this commune situated above Lake Annecy. A vehicle was found parked in a parking place near the Combe d’Ire State forest road. Three bodies were found in this vehicle, one of which was that of a young child, according to a source close to the investigation. Nearby, a cyclist was also found, also dead, as well as a young girl, alive but badly injured.
The mayor of the village has gone to the area and an “important security device” has been deployed. The area is surrounded by gendarmes; the Attorney of the Republic is on the way there. A press conference should be organised this evening.
It’s very interesting, P_. Now we have to ask the question: what would be the motive for the authorities hiding the fact that the young girl was dead, and then around midnight declaring that they had found her alive (after witnesses at the campsite had reported that the family had two children?
My computer (brain) is equivalent to a Commodore 64 (which does have its uses, and can reach some usable results,- but it takes time…oh boy it takes time.)
That’s why I asked those of you equipped with deep blues out there: What could be the motive for the authorities for hiding these facts about the little girl?
Re. the sound of gunfire.
One of the comments on Le Messager’s piece on Wednesday 5 September said:
“Je suis a 4 km !!! Et dimanche je fait l ouverture de la chasse avec vero a cet endroi!!!!”
“I am 4 km away. And on Sunday I’m starting hunting ‘avec vero’ in that place!!!!”
I don’t know whether the hunting season has actually opened in that area of France but the sound of gunfire could be associated with that. I also don’t know what ‘avec vero’ means in the comment. Vero could be the person’s dog, of course.
http://www.lemessager.fr/Actualite/Chablais/2012/09/05/article_messager_1623629.shtml
Katie it just seems a very odd reaction to the situation and a very strange place for a high impact car crash (of the nature that would cause injuries as described by raf man) – a secluded woodland car park up a mountain road. Bodies on the floor, windows partially shattered (shot out), a running engine, smoke in the air, especially the obvious smell of recently discharged firearms. I’m afraid i would have been off in the opposite direction to call help not amble in to the middle of a killing zone. Survival instinct kicks in. One of the first reports i read raf man was said not to have known there were dead people in the car until he broke the window and leaned in to turn the engine off. How is that possible ? Windows weren’t blacked out, i’d say three dead people in a car are obvious from some distance whether you put your hand through the window or not. Also i find it highly implausible that a four year old child would lie still for eight hours in between her dead mother’s legs. But then again she was apparently hidden under ‘big bags’. Funnily enough not much mention of their contents/relevance. If i’m out for a holiday drive with my family we always take along big bags just to make things more comfortable. Especially in a hot country (75degress that day). I obviously don’t know what happened but i lean towards this being a production and raf man is part of that. Let’s not forget he was effectively leaving the scene until he bumped into the other witness and the ‘two girlfriends’ who were walking. No driving. No walking. They oddly kept very quiet for a week, no ? One of the biggest holes for me is that the four year old miraculously came back to life having being reported dead very early on, very odd considering they apparently didn’t know she existed at that stage.
@Katie
It’s SAH’s engineering work on the four computers in his loft that will point the way, not his emails, nor his supposed chat-room rants.
I’m sure he was well aware that electronic communications are buggable, esp after the Hicheurs’ arrest.
There’s no evidence he was doing anything illegal. In fact he may well have been working for the UK secretly as I think you are suggesting. And there’s no reason to think that any of his chat-room chums would’ve been any the wiser about that.
But we’ll never know, I expect, what was on those computers…
P.
I’d be inclined to think that is sloppy French reporting. According to that there were only two dead adults,in the car.
Three bodies one of which was a young child ?
@P_
I don’t know whether the hunting season has actually opened in that area of France but the sound of gunfire could be associated with that.
Only if they’re hunting with automatic weapons.
😀
The eye witness interviewed on the BBC said it sounded like “pah-pah-pah-pah-pah” (that is, five pah’s in about 1 second).
Now I’m no hunter, but that wouldn’t sound like hunting to me. That sounds like automatic gunfire, which is what it was reported as. And around 30 seconds of it, no less.
I’ve heard plenty of hunting and you get the odd “boom” from a distance, or “boom-boom” if it’s double barrelled.
Not pah-pah-pah-pah-pah going on for half a minute!
So… no, I don’t believe for one minute that it couldn’t have been confused with hunting gunshots.
@Kenneth, a ray of light ? Some good comes out of the bad ? Rising from the flames ? Nobody likes the involvement of children. Lots of people will have been rooting for that little girl when they first heard of the story and not only does she survive but lo and behold her sister is found alive as well (although it seems after they decided that the elder sister would definitely live). The outrage and interest meter would have gone through the roof had both the children died, this way their becomes less interest, less scrutiny.
Actually, 10 days ago , there was a shooting competition near me, there were guns from dawn til dusk & there were what I’d call a barrage of shots…actually come to think of it ,perhaps it wasn’t a competition but some sort of exercise ?
The point is one hears shooting in rural France so often one comes to thinking it perfectly normal.
These killings would have been after the ‘glorious 12th’ of August too. It is a hunting area.
That is basically what put me on to this story, at first they reported the girl dead and then she was suddenly alive but the story had changed to that she was hiding in the car for 8 hours not making a sound? how can you be hidden and pronounced dead you either have found he to pronounce her dead or dont know what her situation is?
I cant think of a reason to do this, they dont gain anything other than confirming to the killers that the job was done and to avoid them trying to finish the job off when they found the girl to be alive!
The passive nature of the people in the car puzzles me? why would you sit there and take two bullets each would one of them have moved or put up a fight? unless they where already unconcious, if your talking about a Gov Agency actioning this
they could have used Gas to knock them out first?
And the other thing that puzzled me initially was there was an unnamed ex-RAF man that found the bodies,whatsthechancesofthathappening?
@Katie
Yeah, those sloppy French reporters eh!
😉
Perhaps more likely they were getting conflicting reports from police/prosecutors?
Sloppy or not, the 4yo was reported far too early on to fit with the later story of hiding for 8 hours…
Looks like they missed one of the grown-ups (which? the granny with no bullet holes? who later had two?) and the 7yo (because she was no longer there?).
Perhaps this was all part of the “protect-the-kids-by-reporting-them-dead” scenario?
Who knows.
BUT
The 4yo was reported – so was known about early on.
Ricki that’s why I say there were two shooters. After the first one is shot, the others would surely duck down?
ferret wrote:
Do you have a link, ferret, as I’m quite interested, because this eyewitness- [shouldn’t that be earwitness? 🙂 ] report, is quite crucial. I would like to see that interview.
Only “news” of the day so far….from someone claiming to have known Al Hilli. Make of this what you will
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/shreen-ayob/alps-shootings-lazy-journalism-in-chevaline-case_b_1894806.html
I agree ricki about the passivity. Let’s not forget that initially they apparently weren’t sure how one of the women died but later she had two bullets to the forehead? Re the passivity i just think they were hit hard and fast by a team and had no time to get out of the way. Paralysis by fear is also a factor.
For me if the killers wanted the children dead, they would be dead. The sort of people who do this aren’t exactly sentimental, the children would have been totally acceptable loss if the primary target is high value enough.
Funnily enough and i cant find it anymore but in the first report of the shootings in the dailymail i’m 99% certain he was named – i remember thinking immediately how odd that was but not as odd as giving us his career history. What would have happened if he had been a baker ?
Shotguns unless of a very low gauge like a 4.10 do not sound anything like pah, pah, pah even over great distances. A distinct and fairly low boom. Often echoed. especially in woods.
You would take “two in the head”…. if you had been shot first and are trying to stay alive.
The “double tap” is the “coup de grace”.
Infact I have just recalled something that I have always thought “odd”.
They have always said…it was two shots to the head that killed them.
I have always agreed and thought, yeh but the “several shot” in the body that’s stopped them moving first.
Now I am thinking, why did they even mention that ?
Surely everyone would have “thought” that.
So why mention it ???
This Gary Aked…is he the link ?
“Let’s not forget that initially they apparently weren’t sure how one of the women died but later she had two bullets to the forehead?”
It would be “a mess” in there.
But a bigger mess, would be a shotgun.
Shreen Ayob twitter profile states she is an ‘engineer’…..keen to point out SSTL is not a defence company.
James i don’t agree in my experience several shots to the body of a target does not mean that it will offer up its forehead for the coup de grace. If that’s what you were saying ?
To convey the ruthlessness of the killers perhaps ? The inference perhaps being that there was a good reason that somebody wanted the AH’s so very dead indeed.
Just like a movie….hang on a minute.
Shreen Ayob tweet 7th sept Ok, my bad. Revealing I was friends with recently murdered family in France has led about 1million journalists to get my mobile number. SHIT
Bilbo..
Not that I have shot anyone…then had to do a coup de grace !
But go on ?
I was thinking that…shots to the body, then “coup de grace”.
I am thinking that this is wrong ? (I guess I can account for 14 shots, so that leaves 11 shots to “disable” the family…all of them)
What’s your thoughts ?
BOB.
Advertising.
It has put her on the map, now she’s a known journalist !
Her article says nothing & I note ‘comments are closed’.
That Shreen ??
I am guessing she probably liked the attention !
Looks like a “fame hunter”.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/shreen-ayob/
“Shreen Ayob twitter profile states she is an ‘engineer’…..keen to point out SSTL is not a defence company”.
Neither is BAE Systems ! They merely make “systems”.
Is this a new name, is this the sisters husband & the couple looking after the girls ? :
“Sean O’Reilly-Hilli, speaking on the doorstep of his terrace house in Walton-on-Thames, Surrey, the man told reporters.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/07/annecy-murders-french-alps-baghdad
New Zealand
NZ decimalised its currency in July 1967 but did not metricate its imperial measurement system until 1976 with the Weights and measures Act.
The use of the term ‘sibling’ is not in common useage and would be considered strange and somewhat formal if used in everday conversation.