My post on the shootings in France has brought tens of thousands of people to this site – but not to read my dull contribution. People are coming to read the comments from other readers.
Today’s development of the bomb squad descending on the al-Hilli house does not in itself worry me enormously. You may recall the massive terror scare that was ramped up when some Muslim students in Manchester were found to own a bag of sugar.
In fact we have the opposite phenomenon today, with the spook-fed “security correspondents” on TV lining up to tell us it is probably just everyday household stuff. This deviation from the standard Islamophobic “Muslims = bombs” narrative is so startling it makes me wonder why the “move along, nothing to see here” line is being taken so quickly.
My own security services sources insist that al-Hilli was not a person of current interest to the UK intelligence agencies and was not involved in anything clandestine. I have no reason to disbelieve them. On the other hand, the limited and confusing information in the media is almost entirely from official sources. I find it very strange indeed how little attention has been paid to the murdered French cyclist, and how easily it is presumed he was just a passerby. Surely it is as likely he was the intended victim and the al-Hillis the accidental witnesses?
Please do read the comments on my first entry on the subject to see the debate unfettered by the censorship in the mainstream media. This is perhaps my favourite comment:
From Janesmith101
All comments regarding Sylvain, Al-Hilli and a possible nuclear link are being removed from sites I’ve posted on in The Guardian, Independent and Huffpo UK.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/sep/09/alps-killer-motive-baffles-police
Here was my comment, I added as a point of fact it was completely speculative and an unproven theory in a later comment, also removed.
Sylvain Mollier, the ‘passing’ cyclist, was in fact a nuclear metallurgist who worked for a french nuclear company called Cezus (a subsidiary of Areva). Cezus fabricates and processes zirconium into metal and nuclear grade zircoaloy for nuclear fuel assemblies – it also has other applications in aerospace such as components and ceramics for missiles and satellites. Mr Al-Hilli was also a skilled aerospace engineer, on what looks to be his first camping holiday.
What is the probability that two highly skilled engineers managed be at the same remote place, at the same time, yet still managed to end up dead as a result of what looks to be a military style assasination?
As someone else pointed out in The Independent comments, the deceased were found by a ‘retired’ RAF officer who, we assume, will recieve perpetual anonymity as a witness. If the police are looking for a motive, try an intercepted rendevous by a security service fixated on denying a hostile power illicit nuclear technology.
http://wrmea.org/component/content/article/162-1995-june/7823-israel-bombs-iraqs-osirak-nuclear-research-facility.html
The Huffington Post UK reports that this wasn’t the family’s first trip to the camp site. An earlier report had asked other camp site visitors whether they had seen the family before and they had replied they hadn’t. If this isn’t wasn’t the first visit by Al-Hilli, it might slightly increase the odds that he knew or had met Mollier before, this being the last in a series of rendevous of a transactional nature. Mollier lived and worked locally.
Again, I’m not sure of the truth of these reports, there is some very sloppy journalism, as there is always seems to be. I’ve read for example Mollier’s company Cevus descirbed as a steel firm something which it is patently not, but perhaps it may have been a detail lost in translation.
An interesting comment summing up some of the strange coincidences, at least, surrounding these murders. My other favourite comment calls me a “macchiavellian shill”.
I have only one thought of my own I want to add at the minute. Al-Hilli was a Shia muslim and had been on pilgrimage to Qoms in Iran. What if it is indeed true that he was in possession of no especial nuclear or defence secrets to pass on to the Iranians, but the Israelis thought that he was? The Israeli programme of assassination of scientists involved in Iran’s nuclear programme is a definite fact. It makes as much sense as anything else at the moment, as a possibility.
I am not saying that is what happened. But the directions in which the mainstream media is being so strenuously pointed by official sources, like the massacre of an entire family over an inheritance, are certainly no more inherently probable. Certainly as we are now told all the shots were from one gun, for the assassin to get each victim in the head with none of them being able to escape, indicates real proficiency with the weapon and a very high level of training.
Dopey.
I am staggered at the nit picking paranoia here, it is a real eye opener, not to mention the twisting of words or misreading of comments…..
Those trying to gag free speech seem to think free speech is for them & them alone.
I was wondering if the best lead on the assassins might be from the UK as it is possible they were checking out the al-Hillis for a UK hit just before the al-Hillis went to France. I am sure cctv would have caught any car near the al-Hillis and that could be cross-referenced with cars that crossed the channel after the al-Hillis. Ok that is assuming the British police actually want to solve this.
On another point why assume the assassins were rapidly removed from the area. If they were posing as hikers or mountain baggers surely the best way to hide in plain sight is just to carry on an ad-hoc itinerary for a few days and take lots of pictures of themselves being totally normal. This is not like Dubai where the assassins were on CCTV and the passports were easy to prove false. Or like the Israeli “art students” after 9/11 who were only caught because they celebrated the attack on the towers in front of several witnesses. (I am not suggesting that the “art students” helped plan or execute 9/11 – just that they clearly knew what was coming and did nothing to stop it – the Israel / US friendship only goes one way).
Fiona.
It seems the French have nothing like the number of CCTV cams as the UK has, I’ve scrutinised the photos of the camp site & cannot find one. I would have thought one would be visible at the entrance but nothing that I can see.
Excellent points Fiona. IMO etc…
@ fiona
“that is assuming the British police actually want to solve this”.
Probably already solved and they just want the case to die away into obscurity…though we may be pleasantly surprised. I won’t be holding my breath though.
Why the kids were kept aliv
Could you?!
Would you?!
(Unless you were a ‘deeply’ (aka shallowly) embedded member of the british establishment such as ‘harry wales’ – psychologically disatanced mass murderer aka apache helicopter pilot … a mass-murderer in other words …)
+ next time you call me ‘anti-patriotic’, i will call you …
@Katie
That was why I was suggesting the off-chance that cctv caught cars near the al-Hillis UK home that then were then recorded following them to France. Sorry if I did not make that clear
Felix,
Checkatrade customer report on Mays Web Design
Build a 5 page website for a rental property in France
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Customer in Brighton, 19 July 2012
@guy
Re “There’s also a small airport at Chamberey less than an hour from the site. Was trying to get historical flight data from there last week. Any ideas of sites that will have this”
#######
Try that. I’m not sure if they really have those data, but it seems to be the only free flight database with any kind of historical data. There are quite a few offering all historical flight data, but their database access costs quite a lot.
http://openflights.org/faq
Fiona, we know they were followed. The neighbour told the press (in a remarkable piece of television) that the family had been under surveillance intermittently since 2003. The neighbour himself would have to fight the urge to film/photograph the guys in the blacked out car in the driveway opposite if you ask me…
Fiona, no you made it clear & there must be CCTV at the ports,especially Calais with all that’s going on there. I’d like to know which bikes were on the roof of the car & how many.
He could never have travelled with that tandem on the roof, I’m sure it must breach height restrictions.
Sorry, we know that he was followed.
@Katie 21 Sep, 2012 – 11:04 am
‘Morning James.
Can you imagine the frustration British police must feel about having to hand over all findings to the French ?
I’m not sure why they should have conceded this should be a French operation when the main house is in the UK. Any evidence they find should be allowed to be made public,if only for the neighbours sakes.’
Now here’s your chance to redeem yourself. Can you explain why you would post this? You may wish to consider the following in your answer.
(a) criminal jurisdiction;
(b) the fact that an equipe communes d’enquête (ECE) is to be established this very evening headed up by the French investigating judges;
(c) the Home Office is being accused of refusing to co-operate with the investigating judges since the beginning of the enquiry by rejecting several of their commissions rogatoires?
I’m really interested in what you have to say.
@ Katie
From the photos I’ve seen, the tandem thing was attached to the caravan (front of)
@Bluebird thanks I’ll check it out
Ah, well done Dopey, I haven’t seen that, but what of the other one ?
I can understand the adults strapped on the front of the caravan,but the children had one too, maybe that was on hire from the camp ?
Without sounding too paranoid…there were many CCTV cameras in between Leeds, Luton and London but they all seemed to fail when the 7/7 bombers were on their way down.
Thanks Suhayl Saadi. Solidarity indeed.
Katie I think it was the kids’ one that was strapped to the caravan. It looked like the kids one to me.
Could the others not be stored/carried in the caravan?
@katie i was amazed by the obvious …
Dear jon (mod) please remove this post …
I have traveled to France by ferry with bikes and often (even if you do not book a extended headroom place) they will find a place for you with enough height. If not you have to quickly get the bikes off the roof and remove the front wheel and get them into the car itself. Of course that would probably not be possible with a tandem but I am sure it would be possible to chain them somewhere safe or fix them temporarily flat on the roof as opposed to upright. The ferry people are usually fairly accommodating although other travelers may be bloody impatient as you get the bikes down 🙂
@Dopey & @ Katy
Is it a fact that those pics were from this trip?
It was the two-wheel trailer that was mounted on the caravan.
If the tandem was brought on this trip it could have travelled in the caravan, or been picked up en route.
@ CD
No, I believe the pics were said to be from a previous trip.
I’ve just tried to look at the Daily Mail article with pics of the bikes on again. It no longer exists, or the two links I’ve tried dont anyway – I get to the DM site but it then says the article doesn’t exist.
Why were the 2 young people left alive?
Why were the 4 older people killed?
Rational explanationz?
Irrational explanations?
CD, we don’t know that, one can only speculate. I’m intrigued as to why they travelled so far, on an impromptu short break when there are so many campsites across France. Did someone say 600 miles ?
So it begs the question was this because they wanted to be near the Swiss border or to meet with Mollier ?
@katie
Saying “would have” is not speculation, it’s assertion. Anyone is free to speculate but you make wild assertions and then fail to back them up with anything concrete, and ignore any evidence thrown your way. Then you complain you’re not allowed to speculate and free speech is only for the few!
Go figure.
: shrug:
Website link?
Is that so Dopey, who provided the pics then I wonder ?
Katie
21 Sep, 2012 – 3:50 pm
“Oh dear Kathy …… I NEVER said ‘Iraq’ did,you jumped to conclusions !
I said Saad’s father could have written a Sharia will,which could be the basis of the feud , why is that so hard to understand ?”
So why then did you not clarify that you had’nt meant in Iraq when I said “Before the Iraq war, Iraq was a secular state so no sharia law.”?
Instead of a straightforward denial that you meant Iraq you posted this instead; “The country may have been secular, but the father was a muslim & brought his children up as muslims,he would have chosen to use sharia law for his will……give one good reason why he wouldn’t ?”
Why wouldn’t you reply that you meant a sharia court in UK – if there was such a thing back then – and not Iraq? Would have save a lot of time and energy. Pure obfuscation I would say.
For the latest most authoritative, most informed and most insightful comments on the Chevaline massacre, tune in to the Dopey and Katie show!
You two are wittering on about where SAH stashed the kids bikes and the tandem on the ferry and non-existent DM webpages.
Where are we going with this line of enquiry?
@Katie
21 Sep, 2012 – 5:04 pm
And ferry companies must keep records of car registrations anyway so at least two sources of identifying cars crossing the channel. I would imagine any instance other than the al-Hillis of cars being both in Claygate and crossing the channel during the suspected timeframe would be suspicious. This all assumes the the assassins did not have the resources to change cars or instruct another team but given they could have been caught by surprise over the al-Hillis’ trip it is possible.
@ katie
Is that so Dopey, who provided the pics then I wonder ?
……………………….
Gary Aker? That’s purely a wild guess based on the fact I THINK those pics followed after he spoke to the press, but I may be wrong. I think he spoke to the Mirror anyway but the Mail had the pics.
Anyway, no trace now on the DM site of that article and the pics.