My post on the shootings in France has brought tens of thousands of people to this site – but not to read my dull contribution. People are coming to read the comments from other readers.
Today’s development of the bomb squad descending on the al-Hilli house does not in itself worry me enormously. You may recall the massive terror scare that was ramped up when some Muslim students in Manchester were found to own a bag of sugar.
In fact we have the opposite phenomenon today, with the spook-fed “security correspondents” on TV lining up to tell us it is probably just everyday household stuff. This deviation from the standard Islamophobic “Muslims = bombs” narrative is so startling it makes me wonder why the “move along, nothing to see here” line is being taken so quickly.
My own security services sources insist that al-Hilli was not a person of current interest to the UK intelligence agencies and was not involved in anything clandestine. I have no reason to disbelieve them. On the other hand, the limited and confusing information in the media is almost entirely from official sources. I find it very strange indeed how little attention has been paid to the murdered French cyclist, and how easily it is presumed he was just a passerby. Surely it is as likely he was the intended victim and the al-Hillis the accidental witnesses?
Please do read the comments on my first entry on the subject to see the debate unfettered by the censorship in the mainstream media. This is perhaps my favourite comment:
From Janesmith101
All comments regarding Sylvain, Al-Hilli and a possible nuclear link are being removed from sites I’ve posted on in The Guardian, Independent and Huffpo UK.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/sep/09/alps-killer-motive-baffles-police
Here was my comment, I added as a point of fact it was completely speculative and an unproven theory in a later comment, also removed.
Sylvain Mollier, the ‘passing’ cyclist, was in fact a nuclear metallurgist who worked for a french nuclear company called Cezus (a subsidiary of Areva). Cezus fabricates and processes zirconium into metal and nuclear grade zircoaloy for nuclear fuel assemblies – it also has other applications in aerospace such as components and ceramics for missiles and satellites. Mr Al-Hilli was also a skilled aerospace engineer, on what looks to be his first camping holiday.
What is the probability that two highly skilled engineers managed be at the same remote place, at the same time, yet still managed to end up dead as a result of what looks to be a military style assasination?
As someone else pointed out in The Independent comments, the deceased were found by a ‘retired’ RAF officer who, we assume, will recieve perpetual anonymity as a witness. If the police are looking for a motive, try an intercepted rendevous by a security service fixated on denying a hostile power illicit nuclear technology.
http://wrmea.org/component/content/article/162-1995-june/7823-israel-bombs-iraqs-osirak-nuclear-research-facility.html
The Huffington Post UK reports that this wasn’t the family’s first trip to the camp site. An earlier report had asked other camp site visitors whether they had seen the family before and they had replied they hadn’t. If this isn’t wasn’t the first visit by Al-Hilli, it might slightly increase the odds that he knew or had met Mollier before, this being the last in a series of rendevous of a transactional nature. Mollier lived and worked locally.
Again, I’m not sure of the truth of these reports, there is some very sloppy journalism, as there is always seems to be. I’ve read for example Mollier’s company Cevus descirbed as a steel firm something which it is patently not, but perhaps it may have been a detail lost in translation.
An interesting comment summing up some of the strange coincidences, at least, surrounding these murders. My other favourite comment calls me a “macchiavellian shill”.
I have only one thought of my own I want to add at the minute. Al-Hilli was a Shia muslim and had been on pilgrimage to Qoms in Iran. What if it is indeed true that he was in possession of no especial nuclear or defence secrets to pass on to the Iranians, but the Israelis thought that he was? The Israeli programme of assassination of scientists involved in Iran’s nuclear programme is a definite fact. It makes as much sense as anything else at the moment, as a possibility.
I am not saying that is what happened. But the directions in which the mainstream media is being so strenuously pointed by official sources, like the massacre of an entire family over an inheritance, are certainly no more inherently probable. Certainly as we are now told all the shots were from one gun, for the assassin to get each victim in the head with none of them being able to escape, indicates real proficiency with the weapon and a very high level of training.
Cryptonym,
Perhaps you are right and I’ve had one too many glasses of vino at this late hour. However I recall explicitly checking I wasn’t caught out by the new pagination.
However now that I think of it, the thread I saw displayed was hugely truncated compared to what it is now. Database problems? There was an apparent crash just previous. In any case I would change web and database access passwords just in case. But then I’m A bit paranoid I guess.
Cheers Clark, I was just having a bit of a joke, it’s been a long few days for me on this case.
Up ‘n’ atom in the AM!
Off to dream about what kind of Rosemary’s Baby strain of regressive genotype nano-algorithms might possibly operate Bill ‘n’ Ben, the Anton/James “men” LOL!!!
Tony Roma, James, Anders7777, possibly others; could you cool off calling each other shills, etc. please? A few weeks back I’d have deleted stuff like that; it’s unprovable, it doesn’t advance the argument, and it dilutes the thread.
James, if your missing replies included rude words, they were probably eaten by this blog’s spam gannet.
Two people with overly capitalised and exclaimed posts create cognitive dissonance,i feel.
Maybe thats the plan.
Welcome back Clark,hope yer break was enjoyable 🙂
A little more mystery is added to the mix by the corporate media. Fog.
France shooting: Murdered Briton was acting ‘strangely’ before family were killed
A British man murdered alongside his wife and mother-in-law while on holiday in the French Alps was acting strangely in the days prior to his death, leaving his family alone several times each day before inexplicably switching campsites without notice, it emerged yesterday.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/9534285/France-shooting-Murdered-Briton-was-acting-strangely-before-family-were-killed.html
Latest News: Syrian defector says ‘regime’ will ‘definitely’ use chemical weapons. No shadow of doubt apparently – the ‘regime’ really is that stupid Western media insists.
In other news, Israel NOT guilty of killing British scientist. Despite years of killing Arab scientists involved in nuclear research, Western ally and democratic Jewish state denies it killed some Iraqi in Switzerland who was working for the British, adding that it was clearly Iran who did it.
Although they did not see anyone visit the family they said they noticed an unusual man dressed in a smart jacket visiting the campsite at the time the al-Hillis were there. They said that he appeared “to come from the Balkans”.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/9534285/France-shooting-Murdered-Briton-was-acting-strangely-before-family-were-killed.html
The strange man from Balkan finally showed up.
I’m intrigued by this Swedish granny still. She carried two passports on holiday in France, Swedish and Iraqi!! (why carry two???) Any ideas anyone?? Was “mormor” going on to Israel?
AFP dug up a Dutch campsite witness,Petra Kroon: “The mother had light brown skin and long black hair. I thought they were gypsies.”
Another anonymous witness said said the two girls had dark hair and the grandmother wore a full-length black dress. Did the dead mother also wear such clothes? We will never know.
This may be an official narrative story to explain the younger girl hiding under her mother’s dress (not the grandmother’s)
I am also concerned that the Swedish press don’t seem particularly exercised by one of its senior citizens being murdered in a small massacre. There is however, a Swedish forum on the case…
https://www.flashback.org/t1955658p86
and the (posited) grandmother is discussed, DOB 25 Feb 1938. (p83)
currently 86 pages long.
As Anders7777 suggests, check early pronouncements, especailly of the prosecutor,Maillaud. eg. this one…
The cyclist who died had told his wife he was going out cycling and planned to take a new route, he says. “He perhaps wanted to visit caves. I don’t know any more.” as reported by AFP.
Does anyone know if there been confirmation that the dead cyclist’s house has been searched?
And the ExRaf cyclist’s house too? I have seen nothing on this topic. Surely the Raf guy has to be a suspect and must be eliminated from the enquiry in a diligent rather than sycophantic fashion.
It is amazing that all leads are not being followed up at the same speed. Did the police not say they were working on lots of leads. There seem to be signs of coverups and mis-direction. All roads lead to the family dispute.
Not sure if the French police are being cagey witi information they are sharing or if they are actually descendants of Insp Clueso.
Good point about SM’s house, Zak. Seems to be nothing in English or French. I fear we will never know about the alleged ex-RAF man. Best not to worry too much or speculate too wildly about this official narrative “device”
Surely if this was a government job, NO witnesses would have been left, regardless of age. Whoever carried our the attacks with such an assumed high level of training would not be so careless to jeopardise the operation by leaving not one but two witnesses?
Hello, hello, hello, what’s going on ‘ere then? A Shia nuclear scientist has been shot you say? The victim recently visited Iran you say? Sounds like the work of the Oi Vay gang (dun dun dahhhh). I best get on and organise a media cover-up then. Move along please, nothing to see here (whistle Bod theme tune).
Nuid,
Did you pick up on this:
A father shot in an attack which also killed his wife and mother-in-law had repeated secret meetings during a family caravan holiday in the Alps, The Times (£) is reporting.
Saad al-Hilli suddenly moved his family from one camp site to another less than a mile away just two days
I did, Mark, thanks. I wondered if his repeatedly going out on his own meant that his killers were taken aback when he turned up with his entire family on the day of the killings.
I also wondered if he’d changed camp site because of mobile phone coverage (lack of) …
I have a question about the French cyclist. Perhaps some of you read other forums and heard more about. I was searching French forums bit all I got were unconfirmed hints that he was apparently working for the security branch of cezus.
Questions:
(job) What exactly did he do for cezus ?
(roots). Did he have ties to north Africa like hicheur or was he European French?
(studies) hicheur studied nuclear physics in annecy and first after studies he worked for LAPP in annecy (closeby the scene, isn’t it?)
Could hicheur have known Mollier from his studies in annecy (colleague?) or from his work at LAPP?
They are both about the same generation.
Most important to know and possibly a key in that investigation would be an answer about the question if mollier had ties to or roots with north Africa (Algeria?).
Perhaps somebody knows or previously read more about Mollier.
“Surely if this was a government job, NO witnesses would have been left, regardless of age. Whoever carried our the attacks with such an assumed high level of training would not be so careless to jeopardise the operation by leaving not one but two witnesses?”
What if the killer (in the team) ran out of bullets? It seems to me a fairly determined effort was made to kill the seven year old. Three skull fractures? and a bullet in the shoulder. (I don’t buy this “torture” theory)
Welcome back Clark, good to see you 🙂
I second the request for keeping on topic – there is too much info to be mined to spend time name-calling. Thanks.
Have you noticed that the matter has almost been dropped by the visual media? A few bits and pieces in the MSM papers aka corporate media. That is the way it is wanted of course.
“What if the killer (in the team) ran out of bullets? It seems to me a fairly determined effort was made to kill the seven year old. Three skull fractures? and a bullet in the shoulder. (I don’t buy this “torture” theory)”
Fair comment but I have a hard time comprehending that a trained killer working for the government would not be trained also in hand to hand combat and capable of killing without a weapon.
@Zak1984. For now, we don’t know what’s going on with the investigations.
All we’re doing is speculating on media reports.
@Garibaldi. Some links or citations to support your claims would be useful.
Kind of O/T, but don’t you just love the Telegraph ..
Went there in search of more info on the latest on this story and to check out Mary’s hypothesis and ssaw this headline:
‘T-shirts rejoicing in death of Baroness Thatcher sold’
For a moment I thought ..!!!
Something to consider
Brothers aren’t necessarily siblings. He could have told his neighbour about a problem with a brother. However, perhaps he didn’t mean his sibling.
Simply read the headlines how those guys call each other when they seek same interests.
http://aseerun.org/2012/05/17/brother-adlene-hicheur-is-free/
Surrey Satellites and EADS http://www.astrium.eads.net/en/press_centre/eads-astrium-signs-an-agreement-to-acquire-surrey-satellite-technology-limited.html Also DMCii a subsidiary of Surrey Satellite in business with Russian company ScanEX http://www.technologynewsroom.com/press_releases/company_releases.aspx?story=1900
And what’s with the Daily Mail’s photo of a blue-eyed SAH??
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2200943/Why-did-massacre-family-leave-campsite-hurry-Murder-victims-switched-base-days-bloodbath.html
Mochyn69 That line grabbed my attention for a second or two. 🙂
These are photos of Mr Al Hilli. All one and the same. Mr Saltman’s crops up too. He’s gone quiet hasn’t he. There is also a photo of Zaid, Saad’s brother and as I said previously, quite unlike Saad. No significance. Just saying.
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=al+hilli&hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-Address&rlz=1I7ACAW_en&prmd=imvnsuo&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=0wBPUPKcLeeK0AW38YCADA&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAQ&biw=1373&bih=740
Re the report of the father “acting ‘strangely”, and frequent sole excursions, meeting with several people in the region, sudden switch of camp site, and “unusual man” seen at the camp, all of this would at least seem to go against the theory that the family were murdered because they stumbled on the planned ambush of the Frenchman; I find the description of the “unusual man” as appeared “to come from the Balkans”, quite unhelpful, as the Balkans is famous for having a very diverse ethnic mix, hence the term “Balkan Salad” etc ! I wonder if the Dutch campers mean Gypsy looking !?
Re the debate over the supposed lack of ruthlessness in not killing the older child, just consider that “Maillaud described Zainab’s survival as a miracle”; and to those that want to believe that “Westerners” would not deliberately harm young children, I would point them to this clip of supposedly trained & discipline professional adults, sadistically indulging in GBH on children, complete with sicko perverted orgasmic commentary;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ox7dEq7vI4Y&list=FLXt3Jtv6OH0Z5WtTTOMIqhg&index=85&feature=plpp_video
Confirmed weapon used:
Scorpion vz 61 7.65mm
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0korpion_vz._61
That is the weapon used.
That weapon is an old one from 1959 but still in use in army forces. Interestingly, that weapon is used in the Iraqi army as well it had benn used in the former Yugoslavian army (man from Balkan?)
This thread is so frustrating! Full of mis-quotes, mis-calculations, errors from other forums quoted as fact and other red herrings.
BUT, if you sift out this and the childish bluster this place is probably as good as it gets for the facts about this intriguing case. E.g. exact spec of the car.
All the published maps of the location of the shootings are wrong. I couldn’t find a single map or link that was correct.
Those maps published do not fit the photos of the scene.
Finally, with the help of Matt’s geoportail.gouv.fr link can I correctly identify in Google maps where this took place:
http://goo.gl/maps/Tdb4y
I start at the multi-lingual sign board where the police set up the road block (A) and end up at the tiny car park at the head of the road where the shootings took place (B). Total distance 3.2 km. This matches the 3km mentioned on the signpost (not 5km as mis-quoted.)
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/09/07/article-2198777-14DEA43C000005DC-17_964x640.jpg
shows river bed stones glimpsed through tree canopy in bottom left. Also bridge parapets on bottom right.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/09/07/article-2198777-14E36B69000005DC-792_964x641.jpg shows road is straight leading up to car park. Note also No Vehicles sign (round white sign with red border) and the map/ information board.
This matches up with Matt’s link where you can see car park indicated, barrier across road marked, river to west and stream crossing road:
http://www.geoportail.gouv.fr/accueil?c=6.238104875676329,45.732052757104576&z=0.000032305502520928274&l=GEOGRAPHICALGRIDSYSTEMS.MAPS.3D$GEOPORTAIL:OGC:WMTS@aggregate(1)&permalink=yes
@Bluebird
Source?
David Landy: source dailymail as well as French media.