My post on the shootings in France has brought tens of thousands of people to this site – but not to read my dull contribution. People are coming to read the comments from other readers.
Today’s development of the bomb squad descending on the al-Hilli house does not in itself worry me enormously. You may recall the massive terror scare that was ramped up when some Muslim students in Manchester were found to own a bag of sugar.
In fact we have the opposite phenomenon today, with the spook-fed “security correspondents” on TV lining up to tell us it is probably just everyday household stuff. This deviation from the standard Islamophobic “Muslims = bombs” narrative is so startling it makes me wonder why the “move along, nothing to see here” line is being taken so quickly.
My own security services sources insist that al-Hilli was not a person of current interest to the UK intelligence agencies and was not involved in anything clandestine. I have no reason to disbelieve them. On the other hand, the limited and confusing information in the media is almost entirely from official sources. I find it very strange indeed how little attention has been paid to the murdered French cyclist, and how easily it is presumed he was just a passerby. Surely it is as likely he was the intended victim and the al-Hillis the accidental witnesses?
Please do read the comments on my first entry on the subject to see the debate unfettered by the censorship in the mainstream media. This is perhaps my favourite comment:
From Janesmith101
All comments regarding Sylvain, Al-Hilli and a possible nuclear link are being removed from sites I’ve posted on in The Guardian, Independent and Huffpo UK.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/sep/09/alps-killer-motive-baffles-police
Here was my comment, I added as a point of fact it was completely speculative and an unproven theory in a later comment, also removed.
Sylvain Mollier, the ‘passing’ cyclist, was in fact a nuclear metallurgist who worked for a french nuclear company called Cezus (a subsidiary of Areva). Cezus fabricates and processes zirconium into metal and nuclear grade zircoaloy for nuclear fuel assemblies – it also has other applications in aerospace such as components and ceramics for missiles and satellites. Mr Al-Hilli was also a skilled aerospace engineer, on what looks to be his first camping holiday.
What is the probability that two highly skilled engineers managed be at the same remote place, at the same time, yet still managed to end up dead as a result of what looks to be a military style assasination?
As someone else pointed out in The Independent comments, the deceased were found by a ‘retired’ RAF officer who, we assume, will recieve perpetual anonymity as a witness. If the police are looking for a motive, try an intercepted rendevous by a security service fixated on denying a hostile power illicit nuclear technology.
http://wrmea.org/component/content/article/162-1995-june/7823-israel-bombs-iraqs-osirak-nuclear-research-facility.html
The Huffington Post UK reports that this wasn’t the family’s first trip to the camp site. An earlier report had asked other camp site visitors whether they had seen the family before and they had replied they hadn’t. If this isn’t wasn’t the first visit by Al-Hilli, it might slightly increase the odds that he knew or had met Mollier before, this being the last in a series of rendevous of a transactional nature. Mollier lived and worked locally.
Again, I’m not sure of the truth of these reports, there is some very sloppy journalism, as there is always seems to be. I’ve read for example Mollier’s company Cevus descirbed as a steel firm something which it is patently not, but perhaps it may have been a detail lost in translation.
An interesting comment summing up some of the strange coincidences, at least, surrounding these murders. My other favourite comment calls me a “macchiavellian shill”.
I have only one thought of my own I want to add at the minute. Al-Hilli was a Shia muslim and had been on pilgrimage to Qoms in Iran. What if it is indeed true that he was in possession of no especial nuclear or defence secrets to pass on to the Iranians, but the Israelis thought that he was? The Israeli programme of assassination of scientists involved in Iran’s nuclear programme is a definite fact. It makes as much sense as anything else at the moment, as a possibility.
I am not saying that is what happened. But the directions in which the mainstream media is being so strenuously pointed by official sources, like the massacre of an entire family over an inheritance, are certainly no more inherently probable. Certainly as we are now told all the shots were from one gun, for the assassin to get each victim in the head with none of them being able to escape, indicates real proficiency with the weapon and a very high level of training.
The assassination of Iraqis in London during the 1970s/1980s by agents of the Iraqi regime was not specifically sectarian, but political. It was done in London, often in broad daylight, and was designed to engender maximum fear among the Iraqi exile/ex-pat community in the UK. It formed part of an organised tactic and it was not done as a one-off bloodbath in a wood in rural France.
I note that when the once investigative politician, Norman Baker (whatever happened to him? Answer: He became a Govt Minister) was writing his book on the death of David Kelly, he seems to have been led by mysterious persons who suddenly appeared from nowhere to ‘guide’ him into positing that Kelly might have been killed, not by the UK hard state, but by ‘Iraqi agents’. I think this is extremely unlikely.
“Gunmen singled out seven Shiite Muslims and shot them in Iraq’s north while they were out swimming in a targeted sectarian attack, officials said Saturday.
Shalal Abdoul, mayor of the town of Tuz Khormato, said the attack happened outside the nearby Shiite Turkoman village of Amerili. The attackers arrived on motorcycles and executed the Shiites after separating them from Sunni Arabs, whom they allowed to go free, he said.
“The terrorists want to ignite sectarian strife in our area. Today’s attack carries a sectarian message,” Abdoul said.”
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/08/11/gunmen-execute-7-in-iraq-singling-out-shiites/#ixzz27Bo5rmjV
Mary, that’s very interesting, about the award, thanks. This whole thing reminds me a little of the death of Gerald Bull and of Astra, Matrix-Churchill and the Iraqi ‘Supergun’ affair. Another book recommendation – The Shadow World, by (one-time ANC activist/politician), Andrew Feinstein:
http://theshadowworld.com/
On a similar note, here’s an interesting article:
http://www.polity.org.za/article/counter-trade-the-case-of-offsets-in-the-defence-industry-2012-09-07
“According to an interior ministry official and a medical source, a car bomb killed at least 13 people and injured about 32 in northern Baghdad, another in Shuala left five dead and 22 wounded , while a third in Urr killed four and wounded 13 and a fourth in Hurriyah killed three and injured at least 14 people.
In the west of Baghdad, a car bomb killed seven people and wounded at least 21.
Violence has increased in Iraq since December 2011, when an arrest warrant was issued for fugitive Vice President Tariq al-Hashemi, who has been charged with running a death squad targeting Iraqi officials and Shia Muslims.”
Mr Al-Hilli’s father is believed to have held a high-ranking post in the Baath Party but fell foul of the Saddam regime and fled to the UK. A family friend said: “Saad’s father was a mechanical engineer but the Baath Party and him didn’t get on so he left Iraq with nothing and built up the business here in the UK. .”
10:35am, Katie, 22.9.12:
Indeed, but that is the situation in Iraq (and to a lesser extent, Pakistan, for example), yet in spite of the large population of Pakistani origin and the smaller one of Iraqis origin, living in the UK, thankfully, we do not see similar sectarian killings in the UK b/w Sunnis and Shias).
As I said, it must be considered as a possibility, I’m not dismissing it out of hand, but I think it’s much less likely in this case than other possibilities.
Thanks, Katie. But that was decades ago. And millions of people – teachers, etc. – were in the Baath Party. There are lots of people who fell foul of Saddam Hussein’s regime. If they’d wanted to kill the Al-Hillis, they’d have done it a long time ago, in England. The Al-Hillis, it seems, for many years had no longer been ‘high profile’.
If there is a ‘Sunni-Shia’ dynamic in this case, it seems more likely that it is an indirect one and relates to the current geostrategic Saudi Arabia/Gulf Cooperation Council-Iran nexus and has something to do with the arms industry.
The shadow of Saddam Hussein and violent Iraqi politics hung over the family slaughtered in France, the Daily Express can reveal. Businessman Saad Al-Hilli had links to Saddam’s ruthless Baath Party.
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/344562/Alps-Shooting-Special-Branch-spied-on-the-family-during-the-Iraq-war-
This is no more speculative than anything else on these 23 pages.
Saad’s father was said to have moved to Spain in 2003…which was when Saad was supposed to have been monitored.
I think reports said that was when Saud and his brother became listed as joint owners of the Clayton home.
I have to wonder whether there was a less straightforward reason as to why the father upped and offed to Spain back then. He wouldnt be the first to hole up in the Costas to live a deliberately low profile life. Maybe he was a normal old widower who just wanted to retire to Spain and enjoy the better climate, and maybe he wasn’t and went because he felt he HAD to.
Morning Dopey, we are told that neither sons are mentioned on his death certificate, nor did they travel to see him very often.
One report says he died in the care home another says he died alone in his apartment.
Can we trust reports with true cause of death ?
@dopey go to the Costa to live a ‘deliberately low profile life’. It would strike me a a strange place to try and disappear, the very fact you mention it in such terms makes it a poor choice.
His wife had died. He liked the heat.
His sons didn’t travel to see him very often. But, they did travel to see him.
I don’t agree at all Bilbo.
A lone man upping sticks….I can see why he chose Spain, but not to leave the family behind, this is a family orientated culture….
In recent months AH had taken to the said chat rooms, this means he raised his head above the parapet drawing attention to himself; especially if he was provocative & venting his anger about the past.
I think this family are/were very well connected in Iraq.
Bilbo the Costas are swarming with those “on their toes” or simply retired from a dubious life. As a it being a poor choice of hiding place – Kenneth Noye?
That aside, you may be right…as I ALREADY said in my post. He could have decided to move abroad for other reasons too. I don’t think the fact that he went there in 2003- the same year Al Hilli movements were being monitored – should be discounted out of hand as nothing more than coincidence.
Saad’s Google Plus profile….not that there’s anything much to be seen on it, or to the public, except for his movements over a few days last December which were already reported in the press.
https://plus.google.com/105700767412998580963#105700767412998580963/posts
Take a look at this list,how many Al Hilli’s do you see,is this an ancestor ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ayatollahs
@dopey – Bilbo the Costas are swarming with those “on their toes” or simply retired from a dubious life. As a it being a poor choice of hiding place – Kenneth Noye?
Dopey, need i say more. Thank you for making my point. A well known hideout, therefore a place where only a brainless criminal would go if they truly wanted to hide. They choose the costas for social reasons as much as anything else. Sorry, Noye is in jail. Hence a terrible hiding place it turns out. Seriously, come on.
Katie, i’m afraid as usual i dont follow you. You paint a lively picture of some loner bucking against tradition who’s son had become a target for venting his anger in chatrooms. I think we established the iraq connection. You use words and phrases that seem almost deliberately provocative, emotive and leading ? Maybe that’s your style but it seems to me, reading all of your posts, it’s more of a pattern.
Dopey, at least that confirms he used Brittany Ferries for his Dover/ Calais crossing…don’t you think ?
@katie it’s becoming a theme though, keep churning.
Katie, al-Hilli means “man from Hillah”, a city of 364,700 people (1998) Hillah is located next to ancient Babylon
{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Hilla}
Exactly Kenneth, where the Al-Hilli’s were born.
If I’m right about this ancestor then the family are very well known , a scholar & very influential.
Further reading says this man went to Iran as a Sunni & converted to Shia.
“Muhaqqiq was born in the city of al-Hilla, Iraq, where he would spend most of his life, to a family of prominent Shi’i jurists.
He studied theology, fiqh and usul al-fiqh under his father. Muhaqqiq later became the leader of the Shi’i seminary there; when Nasruddin Tusi visited the town as the representative of Hulagu, he addressed Muhaqqiq as the representative of the city’s scholarly elite.
One of Muhaqqiq’s most important students was his nephew Allamah al-Hilli.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhaqqiq_al-Hilli
No, it just means he comes from Hillah likes countless others. I don’t know what I can compare it with, so you understand. Jack London perhaps”
Hi all. Just deleted a few posts that were way off topic. In general if you have a point to make, ask yourself if it is in relation to the Al-Hilli murders. If it isn’t, then it risks deletion.
Anders ol’ chap, sorry I had to pop a few of your posts. You’ve suggested Peter is a shill in about 10 posts, we get the idea. I think he introduced himself as a counter-terrorism writer, which does not necessarily make him a ballistics expert, so I think you’ve not proved anything. Anyway, please let up on this until Peter responds. He is perfectly within his rights to assert that the murders were +not+ the work of someone, since you cannot be certain they +were+ the work of someone.
This is all, still, conjecture.
@Kenneth Sorensen
22 Sep, 2012 – 12:18 pm
Abraham Lincoln? Barbara Windsor?? Paris Hilton???
How are we getting on with the French police investigation, by now they must have attempted to interview the kids and should come up with some pre trial conclusions.
Still nobody seems to have any news on the flight movements after the incident or the training schedules of special forces, very near the same location.
We do not what Al Hili’s fear, days before he left, was based upon, none of his phone records or anything of that nature has come to light, we are still in the dark.
fact is, that four EU citizens and two children can be stopped, shot and silenced in the middle of France, with not a single eyelid moving, past news now which nobody will remember in a years time.
our medi, police and Foreign office would like nothing better than to forget about it and however much we froth about the mouth here over roof racks tyre marks and broken windows, churning and burying what little signs have been left by these callous state assassination’s, we will not find out more about it until we force the authorities to release some more evidence.
Was Al Hili’s car bugged? why was he nervous, felt followed and was moving around camp sites?
Did he have some kind of rendezvous planned and was trying to avoid detection?
What is the British Governments close involvement in this case all about?
Did MI6 and Mossad work together on this hit?
Finally what did those builders say they saw? Are they still alive?
Suhayl, you need to go back to Saddam, when the Shia in the Baath party were the majority but they were slowly squeezed out, I forget the figures so will not guess,but it was significant.
Since the Sunni-dominated Ba’ath party took control of Iraq’s government in a 1968 coup, Shia political, religious, and cultural rights have been curtailed.
In the late 1970s, oppression of the Shia became more violent as prominent clerics and religious students were exiled, imprisoned, and assassinated.
This is why the Al-Hilli’s fled….
Katie, i’m afraid as usual i dont follow you. You paint a lively picture of some loner bucking against tradition who’s son had become a target for venting his anger in chatrooms. I think we established the iraq connection. You use words and phrases that seem almost deliberately provocative, emotive and leading ? Maybe that’s your style but it seems to me, reading all of your posts, it’s more of a pattern.
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I’m afraid the record’s stuck – seen it happen all too often.
Ah , just go back to posting off topic Youtube clips Anders. 😉
I think he introduced himself as a counter-terrorism writer, which does not necessarily make him a ballistics expert,
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I would have thought counterterrorism experts (his writing speciality, allegedly) would deal with ballistics in great detail, day in, day out. Part of the territory, an essential part.
‘If he’s a ‘counterterrorism’ writer then I’m a Dutchman’ – Ruud van Nistelrooy
Got any comments about katies’s disgusting racism two nights ago?
To the few sane, rational posters on here who are capable of engaging in polite, respectful discourse it’s been a pleasure.
To the pompous, rude, ignorant, mannerless and trolling bullies you utterly disgust me.
Goodbye and good riddance.
Ah , just go back to posting off topic Youtube clips Anders.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwCWK3Kv4po