My post on the shootings in France has brought tens of thousands of people to this site – but not to read my dull contribution. People are coming to read the comments from other readers.
Today’s development of the bomb squad descending on the al-Hilli house does not in itself worry me enormously. You may recall the massive terror scare that was ramped up when some Muslim students in Manchester were found to own a bag of sugar.
In fact we have the opposite phenomenon today, with the spook-fed “security correspondents” on TV lining up to tell us it is probably just everyday household stuff. This deviation from the standard Islamophobic “Muslims = bombs” narrative is so startling it makes me wonder why the “move along, nothing to see here” line is being taken so quickly.
My own security services sources insist that al-Hilli was not a person of current interest to the UK intelligence agencies and was not involved in anything clandestine. I have no reason to disbelieve them. On the other hand, the limited and confusing information in the media is almost entirely from official sources. I find it very strange indeed how little attention has been paid to the murdered French cyclist, and how easily it is presumed he was just a passerby. Surely it is as likely he was the intended victim and the al-Hillis the accidental witnesses?
Please do read the comments on my first entry on the subject to see the debate unfettered by the censorship in the mainstream media. This is perhaps my favourite comment:
From Janesmith101
All comments regarding Sylvain, Al-Hilli and a possible nuclear link are being removed from sites I’ve posted on in The Guardian, Independent and Huffpo UK.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/sep/09/alps-killer-motive-baffles-police
Here was my comment, I added as a point of fact it was completely speculative and an unproven theory in a later comment, also removed.
Sylvain Mollier, the ‘passing’ cyclist, was in fact a nuclear metallurgist who worked for a french nuclear company called Cezus (a subsidiary of Areva). Cezus fabricates and processes zirconium into metal and nuclear grade zircoaloy for nuclear fuel assemblies – it also has other applications in aerospace such as components and ceramics for missiles and satellites. Mr Al-Hilli was also a skilled aerospace engineer, on what looks to be his first camping holiday.
What is the probability that two highly skilled engineers managed be at the same remote place, at the same time, yet still managed to end up dead as a result of what looks to be a military style assasination?
As someone else pointed out in The Independent comments, the deceased were found by a ‘retired’ RAF officer who, we assume, will recieve perpetual anonymity as a witness. If the police are looking for a motive, try an intercepted rendevous by a security service fixated on denying a hostile power illicit nuclear technology.
http://wrmea.org/component/content/article/162-1995-june/7823-israel-bombs-iraqs-osirak-nuclear-research-facility.html
The Huffington Post UK reports that this wasn’t the family’s first trip to the camp site. An earlier report had asked other camp site visitors whether they had seen the family before and they had replied they hadn’t. If this isn’t wasn’t the first visit by Al-Hilli, it might slightly increase the odds that he knew or had met Mollier before, this being the last in a series of rendevous of a transactional nature. Mollier lived and worked locally.
Again, I’m not sure of the truth of these reports, there is some very sloppy journalism, as there is always seems to be. I’ve read for example Mollier’s company Cevus descirbed as a steel firm something which it is patently not, but perhaps it may have been a detail lost in translation.
An interesting comment summing up some of the strange coincidences, at least, surrounding these murders. My other favourite comment calls me a “macchiavellian shill”.
I have only one thought of my own I want to add at the minute. Al-Hilli was a Shia muslim and had been on pilgrimage to Qoms in Iran. What if it is indeed true that he was in possession of no especial nuclear or defence secrets to pass on to the Iranians, but the Israelis thought that he was? The Israeli programme of assassination of scientists involved in Iran’s nuclear programme is a definite fact. It makes as much sense as anything else at the moment, as a possibility.
I am not saying that is what happened. But the directions in which the mainstream media is being so strenuously pointed by official sources, like the massacre of an entire family over an inheritance, are certainly no more inherently probable. Certainly as we are now told all the shots were from one gun, for the assassin to get each victim in the head with none of them being able to escape, indicates real proficiency with the weapon and a very high level of training.
MontyW: could you kindly give us the GPS coordinates?
The daily mail and Sky are saying that the 7.65 rounds came from a sub-machine gun – probably a Skorpion. The French police are saying that despite all the reporting of the calibre and number of spent cartridges found – they have never confirmed any of this info.
If the 7.65 cartridges did come from a sub-machine gun, then it would most probably be from a Skorpion, and would probably rule out most secret services. I have my doubts about this though. It could be just the media guessing (combining the reports of the man from the Balkans and the type of ammo, and coming up with the Skorpion), or it could be misinformation to deflect away from a Beretta or Walther PPK being used (which would link the shootings to Secret Services). If it was a Skorpion, then that would completely rule out the possibility of the shooter running out of ammo, as the Skorpion mag holds 10, or more commonly 20 rounds.
Al Hilli in Annecy to meet S.M. Transfer of sensitive data/hardware to S.M,reason for meeting? a)blackmail b)political c)espionage. UK knew about meeting(Al Hilli under watchful eye for sometime)hence removal of bugs etc from Surrey home during ‘bomb scare’UK hi-jack meeting with assist from ‘freelancers'(another countries secret service) Al Hilli framed as bombmaker/pro Iraqi spy (Blair vindicated, WMD’s etc).The retrieved data/hardware (stored in missing roofrack section) is payment to ‘freelancers’.’Crazy’ Iraqi Al Hilli makes Bush and Blair look good,enabling war to continue in middle east ‘Pathway to Persia’etc. Usual faces UK US Isreal,France can not say much because of S.M. Saad al Hilli was used/framed.This may have been a job that had been planned some time ago but put into action at short notice hence the messy outcome of the ‘intervention’ of Al Hilli’s meeting.
@Bluebird
Links?
Car park coordinates from Google Earth:
45 deg 43′ 46.73″ N
6 deg 13′ 28.12″ E
elev 2588 ft
Interesting to note that the image in GE is from 2004 and is the same as used in Google Maps. (You can see a vehicle with a light coloured roof parked in the car park in the image and something comprising two white dots in front of it.)
Ian Boyd, I seriously doubt it! It’s 2012, the case is closed on the WMDs and it didn’t go in favour of the neocons.
I am probably completely wrong…feel free to say so.
Instinctively I want to think of this operation as being as clean as possible with minimal operatives being used.
Is there a way the weapons could have been removed and no-one else involved? For example; SM meets Mr. al-Hilli with the intention of exchanging material/info then killing him (doesn’t realise family will be there so has to kill them too even though a little girl tries to escape). “RAF man” is aware of the meet and is tasked with removing SM no matter what, turns up and kills him.
The weapons could have been left in the car and removed – or even on the RAF-man’s person as he’s been whisked away so quickly and quietly. The French coppers didn’t touch the scene if I remember correctly until the Paris crew turned up so the weapons could have still been in the car towed away.
*Thinking out loud*
David landy:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2200943/Alps-shootings-Tourists-say-smartly-dressed-man-campsite-time-Al-Hillis.html?openGraphAuthor=%2Fhome%2Fsearch.html%3Fs%3D%26authornamef%3DNick%2BFagge&videoPlayerURL=http%3A%2F%2Fc.brightcove.com%2Fservices%2Fviewer%2Ffederated_f9%3FisVid%3D1%26isUI%3D1%26publisherID%3D1418450360%26playerID%3D72484359001%26domain%3Dembed%26videoId%3D&hasBCVideo=true&BCVideoID=1831512622001
Suppose my question is; does there need to have been assassins in the woods? Could the murdered and the RAF-man be the only people involved? Why would they need a helicopter etc if those two men killed everyone between them?
How steep was this road for cycling?
Car park is at 2588′ and multi-lingual sign at bottom is at 1825′ which corresponds to a rise of 232m over 3200m = 7% which is 1 in 14.
Interesting news, the raf guy did not call police. There was a French guy who called police and ambulance. Read his first interview here
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/first-witness-describes-horror-scene-of-alps-massacre-8125063.html
Question
Does anybody know the correctly spelled name of Saad al-hillis murdered father?
I wonder what his job or enterprise had been that he achieved such multi million wealthyness for his sons.
O/T Craig. In case you have not seen it, there is this comment on the London Met Uni thread from an old frind of yours, Douwe Korff.
Al Hilli arrives….and there is no one there.
No other car goes up or comes down that road.
Al Hilli is there for an hour…and no one elses passes by.
Then for 30 seconds, the place is like Kings Cross !
That’s odd in itself.
@Bluebird interesting! But report is still does not make sense.
So Philippe and 2 others were “approaching Chevaline at around 4:10” when they came across exRAF? So 4.5 kms away from shootings.
He then ran up to the BMW? He ran 4.5 kms? Why not drive?
Report, of course, does not mention what car Philippe was driving or what he happened to be wearing (black?).
Bluebird
From
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/9527036/France-shooting-Family-feud-may-have-led-to-executions-in-the-Alps.html
Mr Hilli, who was born in Baghdad, came to Britain with his parents in the 1970s to escape persecution from Saddam Hussein’s Ba’ath Party.
They lived in Pimlico, central London, where Mr Hilli’s father, Kadhim, also an engineer, set up his own factory.
The family moved to a house in Clay-gate in 1984, which became Mr Hilli’s own family home when he married his wife, a dentist, and had children. His mother died 10 years ago and his father died last year.
His brother Zaid, whose family live in nearby Kingston upon Thames, was unavailable for comment but a relation declined to discuss the deaths.
~~~~
btw there is a Wikipedia page entitled Annecy shootings
Just a logical thought?
How fast can you cycle 7%?
20 km/h if you’re very fit. Max.
How far away from that scene was the cyclists body found?
Given I cycle hill upwards, when would I notice a shooting? 150 metres in advance? Minimum.
What would a normal guy do?
Stop and turn downwards with maximum speed?
Continue cycling into the direction of the shooting because he is such curious?
Jumping from the cycle and running into the woods for covering?
What would be your choice?
On the other hand, would the murder begin his assassination exactly when a cyclist is cycling in front of the car or else would he wait for another minute?
Your choice?
The cyclist wasn’t there accidentally or else he wouldn’t have been found that close to the scene.
Looking at the photos out there.
The cyclist looks to be to the front of the car….being covered up by police officers.
Fillion-Robin (who doesn’t later speak to the police) says he saw the British BMW…and no other car.
Futher….no other car passed that day.
Yet now ” Philippe D” with two friends rock up !
MontyW, I agree, more questions than answers. Why did the RAF guy run for help? Why not cycling 50kmh downhill for quick help?
Panic? Possibly. But then they were driving uphill with their car and stopped to walk uphill? Panic? Maybe.
Bluebird…
It maybe that he’s trying to use his mobile.
He’s moving about to get a signal.
He hears the car coming up the road.
He moves towards the car ?
“How steep was this road for cycling?
Car park is at 2588′ and multi-lingual sign at bottom is at 1825′ which corresponds to a rise of 232m over 3200m = 7% which is 1 in 14.”
Considerably steeper in places:
Elevation profile: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1279811/Annecy2Profile.png
Gradient profile: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1279811/Annecy2Gradient.png
One caveat is that the DEM data used for these plots is likely rather noisy which may exaggerate the gradient to some extent. However, as I mentioned before, some sections would appear to be significantly steeper than 7%.
“It maybe that he’s trying to use his mobile”
As I pointed out before, there’s almost certainly zero mobile signal in that valley. Can anyone local confirm this?
“It maybe that he’s trying to use his mobile”
As I pointed out before, there’s almost certainly zero mobile signal in that valley. Can anyone local confirm this?
If you go to opensignalmaps.com, move the map down to France, select ‘All Networks’ and zoom in to the Lake Annecy/Saint Jorioz area you can see that network coverage is very sparse
There seem to be some misconceptions about the Philippe D. evidence, possibly due to the telephone game that the press is playing. The original report is in Le Parisien: http://www.leparisien.fr/faits-divers/les-confidences-d-un-temoin-du-drame-de-chevaline-11-09-2012-2159640.php
According to that report, the RAF cyclist appears to have been with his bike when descending, though not necessarily riding it. As he encountered Philippe D.’s car after only a few meters, Philippe D. presumably got out of the car for discussing what was going on, and he had his bike with him, it was only natural to walk up the few meters rather than take the car. This also would have meant that the two women could stay in the car and presumably be safer.
Beezer.
Would imagine so.
Even the French chap (PD) “went” to get help.
And was the first to call the “police”.
He’s local. So must have had a mobile.
“Looking at the photos out there.
The cyclist looks to be to the front of the car….being covered up by police officers.”
That’s the police unwrapping the tarp to cover the car before loading it up. The same photo but not enlarged shows the bed of the recovery lorry on the floor ready to load up the car.
@ Beezer – not sure I trust that info on opensignalmaps.com.
If I look at coverage in my village it also seems to be in a dead zone and whilst coverage is certainly not ideal it is definitely better than indicated on opensignalmaps.com
re – http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/first-witness-describes-horror-scene-of-alps-massacre-8125063.html
How does this fit with the ‘ex-RAF’ man putting older daughter in recovery position – did he do so before this witness arrived or when this witness was present? This witness seems to have thought the girl was not breathing.
This witness says he and two companions were travelling uphill and came upon the ‘ex-RAF’ man coming down the road, not far from the scene of the murders, and saw no other traffic coming down while driving up?