My post on the shootings in France has brought tens of thousands of people to this site – but not to read my dull contribution. People are coming to read the comments from other readers.
Today’s development of the bomb squad descending on the al-Hilli house does not in itself worry me enormously. You may recall the massive terror scare that was ramped up when some Muslim students in Manchester were found to own a bag of sugar.
In fact we have the opposite phenomenon today, with the spook-fed “security correspondents” on TV lining up to tell us it is probably just everyday household stuff. This deviation from the standard Islamophobic “Muslims = bombs” narrative is so startling it makes me wonder why the “move along, nothing to see here” line is being taken so quickly.
My own security services sources insist that al-Hilli was not a person of current interest to the UK intelligence agencies and was not involved in anything clandestine. I have no reason to disbelieve them. On the other hand, the limited and confusing information in the media is almost entirely from official sources. I find it very strange indeed how little attention has been paid to the murdered French cyclist, and how easily it is presumed he was just a passerby. Surely it is as likely he was the intended victim and the al-Hillis the accidental witnesses?
Please do read the comments on my first entry on the subject to see the debate unfettered by the censorship in the mainstream media. This is perhaps my favourite comment:
From Janesmith101
All comments regarding Sylvain, Al-Hilli and a possible nuclear link are being removed from sites I’ve posted on in The Guardian, Independent and Huffpo UK.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/sep/09/alps-killer-motive-baffles-police
Here was my comment, I added as a point of fact it was completely speculative and an unproven theory in a later comment, also removed.
Sylvain Mollier, the ‘passing’ cyclist, was in fact a nuclear metallurgist who worked for a french nuclear company called Cezus (a subsidiary of Areva). Cezus fabricates and processes zirconium into metal and nuclear grade zircoaloy for nuclear fuel assemblies – it also has other applications in aerospace such as components and ceramics for missiles and satellites. Mr Al-Hilli was also a skilled aerospace engineer, on what looks to be his first camping holiday.
What is the probability that two highly skilled engineers managed be at the same remote place, at the same time, yet still managed to end up dead as a result of what looks to be a military style assasination?
As someone else pointed out in The Independent comments, the deceased were found by a ‘retired’ RAF officer who, we assume, will recieve perpetual anonymity as a witness. If the police are looking for a motive, try an intercepted rendevous by a security service fixated on denying a hostile power illicit nuclear technology.
http://wrmea.org/component/content/article/162-1995-june/7823-israel-bombs-iraqs-osirak-nuclear-research-facility.html
The Huffington Post UK reports that this wasn’t the family’s first trip to the camp site. An earlier report had asked other camp site visitors whether they had seen the family before and they had replied they hadn’t. If this isn’t wasn’t the first visit by Al-Hilli, it might slightly increase the odds that he knew or had met Mollier before, this being the last in a series of rendevous of a transactional nature. Mollier lived and worked locally.
Again, I’m not sure of the truth of these reports, there is some very sloppy journalism, as there is always seems to be. I’ve read for example Mollier’s company Cevus descirbed as a steel firm something which it is patently not, but perhaps it may have been a detail lost in translation.
An interesting comment summing up some of the strange coincidences, at least, surrounding these murders. My other favourite comment calls me a “macchiavellian shill”.
I have only one thought of my own I want to add at the minute. Al-Hilli was a Shia muslim and had been on pilgrimage to Qoms in Iran. What if it is indeed true that he was in possession of no especial nuclear or defence secrets to pass on to the Iranians, but the Israelis thought that he was? The Israeli programme of assassination of scientists involved in Iran’s nuclear programme is a definite fact. It makes as much sense as anything else at the moment, as a possibility.
I am not saying that is what happened. But the directions in which the mainstream media is being so strenuously pointed by official sources, like the massacre of an entire family over an inheritance, are certainly no more inherently probable. Certainly as we are now told all the shots were from one gun, for the assassin to get each victim in the head with none of them being able to escape, indicates real proficiency with the weapon and a very high level of training.
@Jon “Almost certainly no – such a system would be far too leaky. Apologies for mentioning it again – to anyone who is sick of me recommending it – but Herman & Chomsky’s Propaganda Model is well worth looking at here”
Interesting. But i think they are complicit whether they like it or not. They also have a moral obligation to make sure that the information they give out is true or correct – especially when people’s lives,jobs,futures are concerened
Suhayl
.
Yes, they can tell us anything they want.
.
Our job is to highlight the inconsistencies in the official account.
.
A major inconsistency now is why didn’t the prosecutor mention this Phillipe D and why did he highlight the RAF bloke in the way he did, only to have him spirited away into the ether.
.
Much better to focus on that than much of the amateur orienteering that’s been going on here.
David Landy:
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4531726/French-Alps-massacre-Find-the-mystery-Balkan.html
The Sun:
THE weapon used to assassinate the Al-Hilli family was almost certainly a crude Cold War machine pistol called a Skorpion
http://web.orange.co.uk/article/news/alps_shooting_killer_hunt_police_trawl_cctv
It is true that French police hasn’t confirmed the identity of the weapon that had been used, however, we certainly know that they wouldn’t even confirm the identity of the victims if the press weren’t requesting that information. Today we find, it’s almost like a mircale, a so called “Philippe D.” as the person who called police.
And, by the way, if there were no children around, we wouldn’t even discuss here. Nobody would care about that killing. The children were the real problem of the murder(s) as they made a normal killing (that happens almost everyday somewhere in Europe, in USA and in the Near East) into a “massacre” that suddenly interests the whole world. We wouldn’t try to investigate here if there were no children involved. We simply wouldn’t care. None of us!
Jon
.
The Propaganda Model only works at the level of useful idiot, and sure, there are many of them in the BBC and elsewhere. That’s obvious enough.
.
It doesn’t work for the Frank Gardiners of this world nor the Mark Thompsons and quite a few of the management in between.
.
Part of the dumbing down process that’s been going on at the BBC since the late 1980s was precisely because the Propaganda Model isn’t the full explanation.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/11/french-alps-shooting-cyclist-girl?newsfeed=true
Some of the photographs of the incident are credited to “PHILIPPE DESMAZES/AFP”. Please tell me that this new “Philippe D” isn’t a press photographer. Hopefully just a coincidence!
“4.01pm. But all earlier reports are say it was the exRAF Chap and earlier. It must have come from somewhere.”
“I also thought the ‘ex-RAF cyclist’ had “nerves of steel”, yet now he is “crazed”.”
Original French is “…ils ont vu surgir peu avant 16 heures un cycliste affolé…” which translates to me more like “…they saw emerge a little before 4pm a distraught/panicked cyclist…”.
“16 heures un” is being Google translated as “4.01pm” when the “un” applies to the cyclist, not the time.
“And, by the way, if there were no children around, we wouldn’t even discuss here. Nobody would care about that killing. The children were the real problem of the murder(s) as they made a normal killing (that happens almost everyday somewhere in Europe, in USA and in the Near East) into a “massacre” that suddenly interests the whole world. We wouldn’t try to investigate here if there were no children involved. We simply wouldn’t care. None of us!” — bluebird
I don’t accept that. We’d still have four adults killed execution-style, two shots to the head each. And we’d still have the very interesting backgrounds of al Hilli and Sylvain Mollier, and the mystery of what they were all doing there. I wouldn’t describe it as “a normal killing” at all. Not even sure what a “normal killing” is.
Oh jeez ! “PHILIPPE DESMAZES/AFP”.
and exRAF man/officer/pilot/cleaner….
…. is ex “high-altitude photo-reconnaissance dept”
Try covering that one up !
Early Reports:
Sky, 6 Sept…
The girl is believed to be around seven-years-old and was shot at least three times, according to reports quoting police sources.
Stephane Bouchet, from local newspaper Le Dauphine Libere, told Sky News a witness two miles from the car park saw a car driving very fast away from the scene around the time of the shooting…..”There are four, if not five, victims killed by bullets…It’s an extremely serious case on a human level.”
…..Local journalist Leila Lamnaouer @leilalamnaouer told Sky News: “The cyclist discovered the bodies at around 4pm this afternoon. Check her twitter stream.
Are there any other early press reports?
Killing in Haute-Savoie: four people died, the car identified
Wednesday, September 5, 2012 at 17:54 updated at 21:57
.
http://www.franceinfo.fr/faits-divers/quatre-personnes-tuees-dans-les-hauteurs-du-lac-d-annecy-une-fillette-entre-la-729607-2012-09-05
The Foreign Office is already involved….
*** Some of the photographs of the incident are credited to “PHILIPPE DESMAZES/AFP”. Please tell me that this new “Philippe D” isn’t a press photographer. Hopefully just a coincidence! ***
anon, PHILIPPE DESMAZES is a famous AFP photopgrapher. He was the first guy who took a picture of the dead Gaddafi in the Libyen war. Therefore AFP got the first confirmed news and picture about Gaddafi having been killed. Desmazes is usually working in Northern Africa (Libya, Algeria) and in the Near East.
If he’s “THE” Phillipe D., then it’s a miracle why he was “accidentally” showing up in the French mountains as a first witness. Perhaps it’s just a coincidence. Facts are that he was there at the scene because he made the pictures for AFP.
If he’s THE Philippe D., then he must be a very lucky press photographer. Of course, if somebody is always on the military front like in Libya and Algeria and in the Near East making photos for AFP then it is likely that he knows high military ranked officers and secret service guys who would give him a hint at times.
Consequently we shouldn’t believe what we see 🙂 …. Quite definitely Philippe D, wasn’t Philippe Desmazes. Philippe Desmazes, the AFP photographer, obviously came only shortly after police arrived because he was accidentally closeby spedning holidays in Annecy …. We rather believe the latter possibility 🙂
This “PHILIPPE DESMAZES” certainly gets around. He was in Sirte for the kiling of Gadaffi. See credited photo at http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-10-20/qaddafi-died-after-being-captured-in-libya-misrata-military-council-says.html
there is also a Flickr set from 5 Sept uploaded by Groupe Messager. This is a Haute Savoie news group. See also the extensive ?santised? timeline where the Flickr set appears. (same html as below, but ending 642)
http://www.lessorsavoyard.fr/Actualite/2012/09/05/article_messager_1623629.shtml
It is being continually updated.
So why did the Prosecutor say that “ex RAF” guy mopst certainly saved little girl’s life in live interview with John Sopel. Now it seems that he was useless and didn’t even manage to contact the police.
Early French reports said that the 7 year old girl was dead. Later “corrected” to be seriously injured but alive.
I agree that it seems an unnecessary detail that the witness was ex-RAF. But then thousands of people are ex-RAF, I don’t think it proves anything. Most of you have probably been on commercial planes piloted by ex-RAF people.
As for him not being in contact with the press, why should he be? If he is a witness then it is is his responsibility to help the French police investigation to the best of his ability, that is all. If you’re just a witness why would you want scrutiny from the press and the internet into your background and life if it wasn’t necessary?
Anon, the earlier report was that he had put the girl in the recovery position. Perhaps he didn’t have a phone on him.
Where is he now ?
At home in the U.K. ?
At his holiday home in France ?
Under guard in France ?
@Bluebird
These are certainly not fields. They are small cleared areas beside the track, I would suggest maybe for forestry maintenance or logging equipment. They stand out in the sat photo as it is one of the few places the sunlight reaches the ground.
@Anon
Many of these press photographes are almost spooks.
This Phillppe D sounds so fake. ” it was like in a movie” sounds like the story being told by Maillaud last Wednesday/Thursday.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/an-alpine-murder-mystery–why-were-the-alhillis-shot-dead-8125292.html
It reads just like a story. Imaginary witnesses “wheeled out” by security services.
Philippe and his two friends were immediately taken to a local police station where their testimony was recorded at the same time as the British cyclist.
Oh really!
Denneby,
The girl had a bullet wound and multiple head injuries. She was presumably losing a lot of blood. Just putting he “in the recovery position” doesn’t make much sense to me especially as the Prosecutor said he had done much more than that. Who stopped the bleeding or did everyone just stand and watch as she bled all over the road?
Anon,
I am just saying what the reports said. I don’t know what happened, neither do you.
@Bluebird
The Sun
Well all hail The Sun then as the ultimate harbinger of truth.
And, by the way, if there were no children around, we wouldn’t even discuss here.
Fail. And another red herring.
Blue Bird = Red Herring?
Good thinkin’ Suhayl – sorry for the spank – bad day 🙂
Thanks for the link ‘Bluebird’ which appears to confirm Saad was indeed frightened with talk of a bullet in the forehead to his neighbour.
On checking the http://www.lessorsavoyard.fr timeline – it seems to imply that early reports were of 3 bodies found in the car and one of them a young enfant! Bizarre given a live child was later discovered with 3 adult bodies. From a source close to the investigation too!
Trois corps se trouvaient dans cette voiture, dont celui d’un jeune enfant, selon une source proche de l’enquête. A proximité, a aussi été découvert un cycliste, mort également, ainsi qu’une jeune fille, vivante, mais grièvement blessée.
http://www.lessorsavoyard.fr/Actualite/2012/09/05/article_messager_1623629.shtml
Dennehy
.
When we look at behaviours or accounts, we’re looking for what’s usual, what fits, what’s normal.
.
We’re not looking to excuse, by invention or speculation.
.
The only issue here is whether it’s normal that a witness, especially a first witness, to such a crime would be presented to the public. My view is that after giving their account to police, they’d be all over media and television in normal circumstances.
.
That they’re not in this case highlights the unusual proceedings.
Where’s this bulletproof vest comment coming from? What neighbour supposedly said this? Jack Saltman by any chance?
This guy’s neighbours now talk of bullet proof vests. “Special Branch” surveillance, pre-existing death threats etc. But apparently none of them thought any of this particularly unusual at the time!
Well Vague Hague, do you have some kind of data for how often people like this guy, whoever he is, talk to the press in cases where they were and were not eventually found to be involved in the crime?
As I say, I think it’s perfectly understandable that someone wouldn’t want press attention. He has to co-operate with the people who are doing the investigation and only them.
@Vague Hague:
If that’s your view then okay, but the Model pupports to show how the media works pretty much all the way through. I agree that one or two journalists could be plants, but having a substantial elite layer of fakes – which would have to exist to account for the consistent levels of bias across the developed world – would be far too likely to be leaked in itself.
This is why I find the model having much better explanatory power – thus senior journalists who embed with a superpower military for example, who report honestly what they see, feel most aggrieved if they are then accused of systemic bias.
This is made harder by the increasing revolving door between politics and commerce – now that wealthy middle class reporters, moving in the same circles as politicians and spin doctors, and having gone to the same schools – how can they accuse someone of war crimes or corruption? It has become much harder.
@James: “I did not realize if he had no phone or if he failed to capture the network at this point.”
In Germany – and maybe also in France -, we have been a bit slower with mobile phone adoption due to higher pricing. I only take mine with me when I really expect to need it or am expecting a call on it, which is very rare as my friends and family still prefer trying a landline number several times. A lot of people I know behave the same way. I think it’s plausible to speculate that a British person in France, probably subject to roaming charges, may not have a mobile phone with him. Of course, the very fact that the witness mentions this point indicates that either he found it a bit strange himself, or someone else asked him about it.
The RAF man descending without having called for help would also make sense if he had tried to leave the crime scene surreptitiously, changing his mind only when he met a car whose inmates were about to reach it right after seeing him. But of course it is also consistent with the RAF man not having a mobile phone with him (for an innocuous reason or so he couldn’t be traced) or having no coverage at the car park.
I am also inclined to keep an open mind about the man in a black shirt frantically driving a white Peugeot through Chevaline (?) on the wrong side of the road, shortly after the crime was reported. The police may have discarded the story because they suspect the witness of making things up, or maybe because it was the RAF man and they don’t want people to know his description.
As there is no official confirmation of only one gun yet, I would also like to still not rule out the possibility of 20 shots into the car and on Zainab’s shoulder (as in a full Skorpion cartridge), with a silencer as soon as the Al-Hillis arrived (maybe before 15:30), followed by whatever the number of shots was (7? 8? sounds like another, smaller cartridge) from an unsilenced pistol quite a bit later. That would be the shots heard by a group in the neighbourhood. (Btw, I haven’t found this reported reliably anywhere. Where does it come from?) If the RAF man came on the scene with a pistol, shot Sylvain Mollier (who maybe shot the family a bit earlier), and is being protected by the French authorities, then a lot of things would seem to fall into place.
Dennehy,
Any number of people don’t want press attention after an event. This makes the press even more likely to track them down and splatter them across the front page. But not in this case strangely.