My post on the shootings in France has brought tens of thousands of people to this site – but not to read my dull contribution. People are coming to read the comments from other readers.
Today’s development of the bomb squad descending on the al-Hilli house does not in itself worry me enormously. You may recall the massive terror scare that was ramped up when some Muslim students in Manchester were found to own a bag of sugar.
In fact we have the opposite phenomenon today, with the spook-fed “security correspondents” on TV lining up to tell us it is probably just everyday household stuff. This deviation from the standard Islamophobic “Muslims = bombs” narrative is so startling it makes me wonder why the “move along, nothing to see here” line is being taken so quickly.
My own security services sources insist that al-Hilli was not a person of current interest to the UK intelligence agencies and was not involved in anything clandestine. I have no reason to disbelieve them. On the other hand, the limited and confusing information in the media is almost entirely from official sources. I find it very strange indeed how little attention has been paid to the murdered French cyclist, and how easily it is presumed he was just a passerby. Surely it is as likely he was the intended victim and the al-Hillis the accidental witnesses?
Please do read the comments on my first entry on the subject to see the debate unfettered by the censorship in the mainstream media. This is perhaps my favourite comment:
From Janesmith101
All comments regarding Sylvain, Al-Hilli and a possible nuclear link are being removed from sites I’ve posted on in The Guardian, Independent and Huffpo UK.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/sep/09/alps-killer-motive-baffles-police
Here was my comment, I added as a point of fact it was completely speculative and an unproven theory in a later comment, also removed.
Sylvain Mollier, the ‘passing’ cyclist, was in fact a nuclear metallurgist who worked for a french nuclear company called Cezus (a subsidiary of Areva). Cezus fabricates and processes zirconium into metal and nuclear grade zircoaloy for nuclear fuel assemblies – it also has other applications in aerospace such as components and ceramics for missiles and satellites. Mr Al-Hilli was also a skilled aerospace engineer, on what looks to be his first camping holiday.
What is the probability that two highly skilled engineers managed be at the same remote place, at the same time, yet still managed to end up dead as a result of what looks to be a military style assasination?
As someone else pointed out in The Independent comments, the deceased were found by a ‘retired’ RAF officer who, we assume, will recieve perpetual anonymity as a witness. If the police are looking for a motive, try an intercepted rendevous by a security service fixated on denying a hostile power illicit nuclear technology.
http://wrmea.org/component/content/article/162-1995-june/7823-israel-bombs-iraqs-osirak-nuclear-research-facility.html
The Huffington Post UK reports that this wasn’t the family’s first trip to the camp site. An earlier report had asked other camp site visitors whether they had seen the family before and they had replied they hadn’t. If this isn’t wasn’t the first visit by Al-Hilli, it might slightly increase the odds that he knew or had met Mollier before, this being the last in a series of rendevous of a transactional nature. Mollier lived and worked locally.
Again, I’m not sure of the truth of these reports, there is some very sloppy journalism, as there is always seems to be. I’ve read for example Mollier’s company Cevus descirbed as a steel firm something which it is patently not, but perhaps it may have been a detail lost in translation.
An interesting comment summing up some of the strange coincidences, at least, surrounding these murders. My other favourite comment calls me a “macchiavellian shill”.
I have only one thought of my own I want to add at the minute. Al-Hilli was a Shia muslim and had been on pilgrimage to Qoms in Iran. What if it is indeed true that he was in possession of no especial nuclear or defence secrets to pass on to the Iranians, but the Israelis thought that he was? The Israeli programme of assassination of scientists involved in Iran’s nuclear programme is a definite fact. It makes as much sense as anything else at the moment, as a possibility.
I am not saying that is what happened. But the directions in which the mainstream media is being so strenuously pointed by official sources, like the massacre of an entire family over an inheritance, are certainly no more inherently probable. Certainly as we are now told all the shots were from one gun, for the assassin to get each victim in the head with none of them being able to escape, indicates real proficiency with the weapon and a very high level of training.
@CD
source:
“Ali, 57, said his sister Balsam, who lives in London but is currently in Iraq, had contacted British authorities about arrangements for taking care of the children, Zainab, seven, and Zeena, four”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/9530829/France-shooting-anguish-of-murdered-Britons-brother.html
I don’t know how much we can trust those telegraph journalists.
**************************************************
quote: “In the aftermath of the war, the “45 minute claim” (MI6 and CIA by Ayed Allawi) was also at the heart of the confrontation between the British government and the BBC, and the death of David Kelly later examined by Lord Hutton. Giving evidence to the Hutton Inquiry, the head of MI6 Richard Dearlove suggested that the claim related to battlefield weapons rather than weapons of mass destruction”
”””””’
Just a conspiracy. What would have happened if Saad had such documents (found in the Spanish house after his father had died) about the background of the above and if he had actually tried to hand over those documents? That would link the Saad assassination to Dr.Kelly (some of you had suggested before).
*****
It is tough to find something about Haider Allawi. Interesting enough, I found him on a Swedish board only.
http://peeepl.se/personer/haider-allawi/
http://www.geni.com/people/Haider-Allawi/6000000010769955267
Sorry I didn’t name that post Bluebird, I didn’t have time to trawl back through the thread.
Something occurs to me, that being, when this tragedy occurred none of these internet savvy relations left messages on Saad’s Facebook page, in fact no one did, why……. fear ?
If fear, then the killings could hardly have been because of his work.
@peter
Yes, I saw that link before. Those are Shia organisations that are all linked to Hezbollah activities. That doesn’t mean that those Muslim societies aren’t peaceful, quite the contrary. They ask for donations and organise events. However, they are – not unlike the Shia Dawa party – strongly linked to Hezbollah.
E.g. Hussein al-Hilli is in the SOAS school.
http://soasunion.org/sports-and-societies/
And in that school he is representative of AHLUL BAYT ISLAMIC.
That is a Hezbollah forefront organisation. We would say that they are totally peaceful and create no harm, however Israel would likely think different.
There is a movie uploaded by AHLUL BAYT ISLAMIC on youtube that I might perhaps link to Hussein al-Hilli, but I am nt sure about. Fact is that it is a propanagda video of AHLUL BAYT ISLAMIC.
**** WARNING: Those pictures in that video are extremely graphic and better don’t watch it if you aren’t feint-hearted. ****
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8D-YKPVmYMs
Haydar Thaher Al Saffar.
Brother of Ikbal Ll Hilli (nee Al Saffar).
Who’s mother was Suhaila (drum roll) Al Allaf !!!!
I’m John Smith. And this is my son Juan McAvoy !
The names make no sense whatsoever.
Bluebird.
Since your the “family tree” expert. Saad’s friend…
Mae Faisal El (or maybe Al) Wailly of Arizona, U.S. of A.
Does she pop up anywhere ?
She’s the gal that fingered Ziad (or Zaid !) with the “He’s a contol freak” comment.
**********************************************************
@james
Haydar Thaher Al Saffar.
Brother of Ikbal Ll Hilli (nee Al Saffar).
Who’s mother was Suhaila (drum roll) Al Allaf !!!!
I’m John Smith. And this is my son Juan McAvoy !
The names make no sense whatsoever.
*********************************************************************
Those names do make sense. There is a great explanation about Arabic names further above in this threat (posted this morning) and I appreciated that post because it gave more insight in those names.
Usually those names are given from the tribe they are coming e.g. “Al Ali” means that he or she is “from the Ali tribe”. Al Tikriti means that he is from Tikrit (that was the name of Saddam Hussein al Tikriti (Saddam from Tikrit). You may add that name or simply leave it. The al-Hillis come from Hillah (or al-Hillah), a city South of Baghdad that became infamous because of the bombing. Al-Hilli is just a declination of Al-Hillah, what means “the tribe from Hillah”.
Women may chose if they keep their old name or if the add the name of their husband, particularly after their husband had died. Suhyla al-Saffar al-Allaf could call her self Shyla al-Saffar or Suhyla al-Saffar whether or not she updates her passports. She could also call herself Suyhla al-Allaf al-Saffar. That’s why it is pretty difficult finding the correct names, particularly because of the spelling.
Usually in Arab translations they will write Suhyla. In European translations they will write Suheila or Suhaila. It is the same name, just differently spelled. Therefore it is tough finding something. The same problem I have with Walid al-Hilli (Waleed al-Hilli). It’s a difficult spelling problem and searching isn’t easy.
@Felix
Now I ask, KS, who [is] “your kind”???
Gosh it would be nice, wouldn’t it, if Kenneth would break the habit of a lifetime and answer a straight question, instead of being a hit-and-run merchant…
They just don’t make it easy do they !
It’s like the Co accs. Mrs Al Hilli is Ikbal Al Saffar.
So she “could” write..
Ikbal Al Saffar
Iqbal Al Saffar
Ikbal Al Hilli
Iqbal Al Hilli
Then throw in Iraqi religious conflicts (shia v Sunni v shiite), Iraqi politics (how many parties and movements are there !), Iraqi regional movements, Iraqi regional independence movements, Iraqi power struggles….and the affiliates of each and everyone of those….and add several billion US “unmarked” bills…..Oh nearly forgot the looney “parent beating” (alleged) son !
…and it’s a nightmare.
A very useful table of links has just been posted on David Icke
http://something-stinks.com/al-Hillli%20Murders.htm
forgot to add by Empee, thanks
Anders mentioned the MKO.
MKO expulsion the least Iraqi right
“Sorry for hosting the MKO” “I should apologize to the Iranian nation on behalf of the Iraqi nation for accepting the anti-Iran cult on our soil for years,” head of Shahid Mihrab Institute in Al-Kadhimain said. “The MKO will be certainly expelled from Iraq,” Shada Abdulkadhim Al-Hilli insisted.
“Iraqis more motivated to expel MKO” “I have met several Iraqi officials and provided them with several documents on the MKO’s crimes,” Habilian Association Secretary General said.”
http://www.habilian.ir/en/Exhibitions/3/Page-1.html
With photos.
http://www.habilian.ir/en/Meets/mko-expulsion-the-least-iraqi-right.html
Hayder Allawi could be that one {http://www.192.com/atoz/people/allawi/hayder/}
There is also a Hadi Allawi (with whom he may or may not share that address), who has a really interesting job {http://uk.linkedin.com/pub/hadi-allawi/40/782/131?trk=pub-pbmap}
@james
it is tough to search for her (Mae Faisal El Wailly). She’s from Surprise, Arizona and born in 1957. She might fit with the age of Saad but I didn’t find much more about her because the internet is spoiled with her press release and you won’t find the significant links easy.
Pity that google and other search machines don’t not allow us searching by date:
“only list everything updated earlier than one month ago”.
That would be perfect.
I listed two quite exciting additions to my previous research of the family members, but those two inputs are still awaiting moderation for some time now.
What if the evidence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq was not a weapon, per se. What if the “evidence” came in the form of human remains, which had been irradiated? And what if someone from the Daresbury Laboratory was able to prove that the irradiation came not from WMD, but from a dental procedure? I’m not suggesting that Lachlan Cranswick’s testing of a capilliary at Grenoble had anything to do with this. However, it is most curious that he left the UK in 2003, and later turned up dead in Canada, under unusual circumstances. No more than I would suggest the gnomes of Daresbury Laboratory had WMD.
Previous comment re: MKO is held in moderation due to links, this is related to it:
“” While the MEK’s leadership has resided in Paris France, the group’s core members were for many years confined to Camp Ashraf in Iraq”
“French Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy (Union for a Popular Movement) declared that the MEK “recently wanted to make France its support base, notably after the intervention in Iraq”, while Pierre de Bousquet de Florian, head of France’s domestic intelligence service, claimed that the group was “transforming its Val d’Oise centre [near Paris]… into an international terrorist base”.[84]”
Wiki.
Anders mentioned the MKO.
MKO expulsion the least Iraqi right
“Sorry for hosting the MKO” “I should apologize to the Iranian nation on behalf of the Iraqi nation for accepting the anti-Iran cult on our soil for years,” head of Shahid Mihrab Institute in Al-Kadhimain said. “The MKO will be certainly expelled from Iraq,” Shada Abdulkadhim Al-Hilli insisted.
“Iraqis more motivated to expel MKO” “I have met several Iraqi officials and provided them with several documents on the MKO’s crimes,” Habilian Association Secretary General said.”
http://www.habilian.ir/en/Exhibitions/3/Page-1.html
With photos.
http://www.habilian.ir/en/Meets/mko-expulsion-the-least-iraqi-right.html
Saad al-Hilli (50) aka Saad Hilli
Iqbal al-Hilli (47) aka Iqbal al-Saffar
Zainab al-Hilli (7)
Zeena al-Hilli (4)
Suhaila (al-Allaf) al-Saffar (74 or 77?)
Sylvain Mollier (45)
Kadhim al-Hilli (deceased father of Saad + Zaid) died Spain 2011?
Fasiha al-Hilli (deceased mother of Saad and Zaid)
Zaid al-Hilli (53) – brother of Saad
al-Hillis moved to London in 1971, went to Pimlico school (with cousin Ali), lived SW London
Haydar Thaher al-Saffar (46) – brother of Iqbal, son of Suhaila al-Saffar
Fadwa Al-Saffar sister of Iqbal, daughter of Suhaila al-Saffar,
Abdul-Amir al-Saffar father of Iqbal, died 2011, Sweden
Ahmed al-Saffar (‘close relative’ quoted in official FCO statement 12/Sept – BBC)
Claire Schutz – partner of Mollier
William Brett Martin (53) (ex RAF first on scene)
Philippe Didierjean (41) (second on scene, called emergency services)
Unnamed two female friends travelling with PD
Persons quoted
Jack Saltman – neighbour
Julian Stedman – accountant
Gary Aked – friend
James Matthews – family friend
Dr Matt Perkins, CEO Surrey Satellite Technology in Guildford – Saad contracted for the company since Nov 2010
Zaid Alabdi, 48, ‘family friend’
Ali al Hilli (57) cousin, Melbourne, Australia
Yasser al-Saffar, cousin of Iqbal, Sweden
Hasan al-Saffar, bother of Yasser, Sweden
Damien O’Reilly (brother in law of Zaid)
Sean O’Reilly-Hilli (son of Zaid and the late Geraldine O’Reilly)
Investigators
Eric Maillaud – prosecutor
Lieutenant-Colonel Benoit Vinnemann – Chambery Gendarmerie
Michel Mollin – investigating magistrate 1
Christine de Curraize – investigating magistrate 2
Adrian Harper, Detective Chief Superintendent Surrey Police
Jaswant Narwal, Deputy Chief Crown Prosecutor, CPS South East
Seem to be an INORDINATE amount of people here steering the story away from nukes and sats towards a spaghetti junction of I think purposely confusing names and complications
The real story is SAH was a top Arab scientist
Sylvain was involved with SAH
MOSSAD did the hit as per the DA notice para 4
Ref your DA notice question.
CRYPTONYM posted the following on Thread I on Sept. 7th…
I copied the few commments on the indymedia site, earlier, just after the DA-notice comment from ‘Manchester based Journalist’, but not including the comment of 15:12 quoted by Anon here, concerning General Yossi Ben Hanan (chief of defence at Paris Israeli embassy) picking up three unknown others in helicopter at Chambrey Airport (close to the scene).
–
His company
06.09.2012 13:36
He was set up by Mi6 in 2007 in a front company called AMS1087 which did aircraft based photography. They were based at the Delta office park in Wiltshire which is built on part of the old ‘Turnstile’ nuclear Command and Control bunker and is still owned by the MoD. He was loaned RAF trainer aircraft at no cost to help him get established as well as pilots and because of these advantages his company originally thrived however once he started to visit Iran in late 2010 he lost a lot of (MoD supplied) private contracts and the business almost collapsed.
It is interesting that they let him wander around France with no protection even though they knew he was an Israeli “sikul memukad” or high profile target. A deserted country road would have been ideal for the Israeli kill team sent after him.
Looks like he either outlived his usefulness or went ‘rogue’
–
Watching
The cyclist who found the body was an RAF airman !!!
06.09.2012 13:48
What an amazing coincidence that the first person on the scene was a member of the RAF Regiment (the Air Force army branch) who just had to be passing on his bike !!!
–
Ian
British Embassy sends twenty person team to crime scene
06.09.2012 14:05
In an unprecedented action the British Embassy in Paris has sent a twenty person team to the crime scene headed by Kara Owen the deputy British ambassador. According to local TV station ‘Demain’ people describe the British Embassy staff as being “military type”.
There is developing a cover up of massive proportions to protect Israel.
–
Remember this day
Looks like they were attempting to run
06.09.2012 14:27
The local police (before they were shut up) said that the family had multiple passports including British, Iraqi, Swedish and UAE. It seems they were travelling cross country perhaps back to Iraq where they would feel safe .
–
Drudge
Defence Advisory Notice is in effect here
06.09.2012 14:41
Today at 0750 we received information that a Defence Advisory Notice or ‘D Notice’ was in effect with regard to certain facts about this story.
No mention of his links to the Security Services
No mention of his links to Iran
No mention of his links to nuclear weapons research
No speculation regarding Israel involvement in the killing
The only place you are going to read about the real facts of this story are on sites like Indymedia.
You can find evidence of the Garden Gnomes of Daresbury Laboratory and their WMD in an aerial photograph here:
http://lachlan.bluehaze.com.au/dl_gnomes/wheretheylive.jpg
And further discussion of the issue here, FWIW:
http://lachlan.bluehaze.com.au/dl_gnomes/sacredsoil.html
Seem to be an INORDINATE amount of people here steering the story away from nukes and sats towards a spaghetti junction of I think purposely confusing names and complications
@Anders
@Trowbridge
Seems to me that we have reached this point in our searches, but please correct me if I am wrong, or have left out something important:
1. Al-Hilli could have helped Saddam in his hopes of still gaining nuclear weapons after the first Gulf War, making him most bitter after his ouster in the second one.
2. Al-Hilli in meeting, marrying and having children with Iranian Suhaila al-Allaf became so committed to seeking revenge against the perpetrators of the Gulf Wars, especially because of the losses Iran had experienced through NRO-made earthquakes in keeping Tehran at bay during them, that he ultimately decided to spy for the Iranians, particularly because of paranoia about Israel’s role in the process.
3. Al-Hilli’s work at SSTL gave him access to information and know-how about new miniature, radar satellites which would alert Tehran about the dangers its nuclear and weapons programs faced and what counter measures to adopt, and how it could catch up in the intelligence-gathering game.
4. Unfortunately for him and the Iranians, the West learned of what he was up to, thanks to eavesdropping by America’s National Security Agency and its allies, and arranged for him and his whole family to be killed with help from France, Israel and the UK.
5. France arranged for Sylvain Mollier to meet him, acting as if he were an emissary from Tehran so that he could make up for his past mistakes, while Tel Aviv got its Mossad kidon going for the kill, and loads of sayonim in action to explain away what happened – like in the David Kelly murder. Brett Martin was the Brits clean-up man to make sure that nothing got out of control during the cover-up.
6. London sent enough messages about an apparent DA so that everyone knew to play it cool when it came to writing it up.
7. STV’s Lars Borgnäs got the process started in Sweden, as he had done in the Anna Lindh assassination, by getting Säpo involved in a wild-goose hunt for crazy Haydar Thaher, Mrs. al.Hilli’s brother who was then incarcerated in an English mental hospital.
8. The media in general was then too busily occupied with all kinds of predictions and stories about the final showdown by the West with Tehran to pay much attention.
Conclusion: Case closed.
=====
Excellent summary! I’d go along with most of it.
Kinda gets vague as to the hit though, a set-up or not.
Could have been that SAH regularly had meets with Sylvain over the years, thus he felt safe.
BUT, it was to be their last rendezvous. SAH may well have been going to do a flit after the meet, hence all the passports in the car, see the Manchester journalist stuff above.
Kidon were waiting to take out both, and France nor the UK nor the USA would have been informed.
The 3 would have nixed it as being far too risky.
So I think Mossad went it alone and sprung a nasty surprise – remember, our SIS chief has been visiting BIBI twice recently, to get him on some serious valium.
Why a nasty surprise? Because of panic stations, the 20 man team airlifted to Chaveline sur le Mort, and the slightly late DA notice, too late to stop initial accurate reports. See above from CRYPTONYM.
OBOMBYA is refusing to even meet with BIBI, he has just been snubbed AGAIN.
BIBI recently went apeshit and started screaming at the US ambassador.
I think BIBI said to Mossad, “F%%k ‘em, let’s show them who’s boss!”…
Yeah, that sounds about right!
ANDERS
YES IT DOES
TOO MUCH OBVIOUS CHAFF ON THIS THREAD
ALL THESE NAMES ARE A RED HERRING
I DON’T BUY FOR ONE MOMENT THAT BLUEBIRD
“DOESN’T CARE”
WHO DID IT
THAT IS INSANELY RIDICULOUS
THE STORY IS BEING PUSHED BY THE USUAL SUSPECTS INTO ONE
AND ONE ONLY
DIRECTION
WELL AWAY FROM MOSSAD
NICE TRY BLUE TIT AND GANG
YOU HAVE BEEN RUMBLED ™ 🙂
Oh Anders behave yourself. Everyone’s been digging, and getting along wonderfully too for two days. I’d call it leaving no stone unturned and they’re doing a fab job…so quit whingeing 🙂
Likewise you overlook a number of things Anders.
Even if the murders were information led, you overlook that AH was tricked/blackmailed into handing it over to Iran via Mollier , then killed by them or Martin who had now identified the contact which was, Mollier. ?
I firmly believe your determination to blame Mossad is faulty.
Can someone explain dragging the Allawis into the cast of characters in this conspiracy when Ayad Allawi had little to do with the setting up of Saddam’s ouster?
The real troublemaker was Ahmed Chalabi, president of the Iraqi National Congress, who cooked up all the lies about what Saddam was up to, thanks particularly to the claims by the notorious Curveball.
Oh, yes, just called Lars Borgnäs again, and again no answer, not even an answering machine to record the call.
Most strange for a leading journalist. Usually, they record the call, and say that they will call you back, even if it is an outright lie.
Suspect he is just hiding, and for obvious reasons it seems.
@CD, @Anders @Ferret @Dopey et al
From Ancestry.com
Saad M.A Al-Hilli married a Dutch woman, Wilhelmina Pronk at Fulham in 1968. They had, afaict, one child Salwa Al-Hilli, b Islington 1971
Fawzia R. Al-Hilli born 1973 Hounslow. Mother surname Paterson.
Marriage in Hounslow, 1972 between Paterson and “Ralwyn J Alley” (I think this is an optical character translate of Al-Hilli. Ralwyn another optical translate, but of what?
Brett Martin only married in 1997 to a local woman and afaict there is only one child, a son who would be 15 now. I wonder if the whole family were at Annecy in the House?
The accountant’s son is not as posited, he lives locally. Why he would know Saad Al-Hilli I don’t know other than on visits to Claygate. Possibly Associate Director at Kantar Health,Epsom.
http://www.tqsi.info/genealogy/getperson.php?personID=I1991&tree=stedman_uk
How common is the surname Smith?
Al-Hilli means from the town Hilla, how are we having a detailed family tree discussion without knowing if any of the names are the right ones?
A relevant fact not mentioned must be the population of Hillah.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Hilla
Estimated population of 364,700 in 1998.
This large number means that some of these names could be ‘as common as muck’.
Some have been corroborated but if just 1 name is the wrong person, you are researching a totally different family and I have done that before in my own family tree.
And I have to tell you strawberry is not a common surname.
@ felix
Thanks Felix.
RAFman said in his interview) he was on his own at the house in France.
I reckon the accountant’s son..if it’s that James…perhaps knew Al Hilli through his work as a nuclear copper and Saad’s past work at the same site the son worked at. Perhaps James recommended his dad as an accountant for the Al Hillis?
Has it not occurred to the news outlets to do title searches of the alleged al-Hilli properties? And what about searching probate court records for the will of al-Hilli Sr.?
Q, I wondered about probate records. Saad was reported as putting a freeze on the will so I thought perhaps probate hadnt yet been completed…and the will isn’t a public document until after that (I think).
By any chance is the name “Brett” some sort of inside joke among certain agencies? I’m thinking of an unidentified man with expensive dental work who was found dead in a toilet near the town of Deep River, Ontario in September 2001. He was given the nickname “Brett Stone”, for no apparent reason.
We already know the popularity of “William Martin”.
@ Felix 27 Sep, 2012 – 7:26 pm
The Saad al-Hilli you’re referring to in this comment is a different man, on FB as Sa’ad Al Hilli, based in the Netherlands.